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Old 07-15-2008, 09:34 PM    (permalink
jetsfan0099
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Default 3-4 OLBs?

Hey guys, I gotten into a argument with a Pats fan over this, but heres the thing, do you guys feel that Vernon Gholston will be a horrible OLB in the 3-4 scheme because he isn't great at coverage? The guy hardly dropped back in college and was a DE, but this Pats fan feels that Gholston won't be good because he can't cover and is bad in space? I thought Gholston was real good in space? The guy said Gholston is a 1 trick pony. That all he can do is bull rush pass rush. I said that he beat Jake Long with a speed rush, then he says how he beat him with a inside move which he clearly didn't, he said he can't speed rush.
So whats your guys opinion? Do you think it matters if a DE isn't great at coverage right away for his success in a 3-4 defense?
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Old 07-15-2008, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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oh God, here we go. Jetsfan is whining about Golston when he hasn't even played a game.

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Old 07-15-2008, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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I agree on the fact that he is a 1 trick pony for now, but he could be coached, and needs to play 100% every down.
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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only time will tell. At this point i'd say keep his hand in the dirt and have him rush the passer. I think he will be a little worse than Merriman coming out as Merriman has/had better hips and agility. Can he be coached to be solid? Lets hope, but i don't think that will be his specialty. He will never be a Peterson or Ware. Stick to what your good at and hope he's a monster rusher......
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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He has so much potential because right now he a lot of raw talent... We need to hope that the Jets coach him well so that he can develop into an all around player not just a pass rusher.
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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There are a **** load of 3-4 OLB's who can't cover and are getting by fine. If you sack 'em twice or get 2 TFL's, you don't have to cover enough to be in there on 3rd annd long
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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oh God, here we go. Jetsfan is whining about Golston when he hasn't even played a game.
Did you even read my post? I wasn't whining about Gholston, I was talking about 3-4 OLBs, and how important is it for them to be good in coverage right away.
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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Also this guy said that the Pats did not want Gholston and never tried to trade up to get him. That they wanted Mayo who was their #1 guy, I told him that their were reports from Adam Schefler that the Pats tried to trade up with the Chiefs to get him, but the Chiefs backed out because they wanted Glenn Dorsey, and the Jets would of traded with the Saints so the Saints could of gotten him.


And with Gholston being a 1 trick pony, I think he is a bit more then that, he does a really good job with containing the outside IMO when I saw him play, so he is good at pass rushing and containing the outside for the run and stuff, the 2 things he needs to do with the Jets scheme. Plus Vernon Gholston has 2 pass rush moves right, he has that bull rush and the speed rush.

Plus the Jets have the best coverage LB in the NFL from last year, Calvin Pace who had a 77% success rate on coverage.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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Just take the 49er Approach:

who give a **** about coverage?
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:18 AM    (permalink
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Just because Gholston is one dimensional (and I really do think that he is a one dimensional sort of athlete) doesn't mean he won't work out at 3-4 outside linebacker. It seems quite likely that Pace will secure the strongside outside 'backer position, meaning that Gholston is going be playing on the weakside, a position that will be the most forgiving for him.

Prior to the draft, I wasn't sure if I liked Gholston more with his hand in the dirt or standing up, but I considering that his pass rush game is fairly unrefined and he doesn't thrive on contact like one would hope, starting a few more yards back to build up speed and coming at the tackle's outside shoulder (or at least, more so than if he were playing defensive end) might work to his benefit. I don't think he is Shawne Merrimen, but who is? That said, he's got great straight line acceleration and despite being a bit stiff he's shown the ability to get under his man (just not consistently...yet).

Will teams attack his lack of coverage skills? Perhaps, but so long as the Jets keep him away from covering tight ends all that often, he probably has the open field tackling ability to not get burned terribly but runners heading into the flats. He needs to work on the angles he takes (like, a lot), but he can definitely become passable in this regard.

P.S. The classification between "speed rush" and "power rush" is a misnomer, especially in regards to Vernon Gholston. He's big, strong, and fast. His speed rush uses power or his power rush uses speed, whichever you prefer. What he is not is a finesse rusher (ex. Dwight Freeney, Derrick Burgess). He's got quick arms, but at this point he doesn't use his hands half as well as he should. His pass rush repertoire is ridiculously simple right now, but that should improve over the years.
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:55 AM    (permalink
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Plus the Jets have the best coverage LB in the NFL from last year, Calvin Pace who had a 77% success rate on coverage.
I don't know about the best coverage LB in the NFL, but he did have a good year. It will be interesting to see if he can actually put up good numbers in a non-contract year. It certainly isn't promising that he has 14 sacks through 5 years.

About Gholston. He can be effective as an elephant rusher whose responsibility is primarily to rush the passer. He can move around that way and get better mismatches. As far as coverage goes, the 3-4 can mask a lot of the coverage deficiencies of an olb through scheme. It is much easier to mask the zone blitz in a 3-4.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:15 AM    (permalink
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I agree on the fact that he is a 1 trick pony for now, but he could be coached, and needs to play 100% every down.
so is merriman and so is freeney....

as long as they get instant pressure , nobody cares if they do just one , or alle the moves....

i wished the saints DEs would be one trick ponys , as long as they reach the QB here and there :)
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Old 07-16-2008, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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I don't know about the best coverage LB in the NFL, but he did have a good year. It will be interesting to see if he can actually put up good numbers in a non-contract year. It certainly isn't promising that he has 14 sacks through 5 years.

About Gholston. He can be effective as an elephant rusher whose responsibility is primarily to rush the passer. He can move around that way and get better mismatches. As far as coverage goes, the 3-4 can mask a lot of the coverage deficiencies of an olb through scheme. It is much easier to mask the zone blitz in a 3-4.
Well by the numbers Pace had the highest success rate on coverage, something like 17 times thrown to him and he had a 77% success rate, also on the catches he had the least amount of YAC, only like 3.8 against him. Who knows, the thing is he is a good OLB in coverage, he is also very good against the run, the Jets won't expect him to be a sack machine, they got him for his all around production, he had 25 RB defeats last year which is really good, Ware had like 34, and Merriemen had like 32. And I think we can all agree that the best 3-4 OLB in the league is Ware and Merrimen.
Pace only had 6 sacks last year, but he had 15 QB hurries, same as Strahan who had 15, Merrimen actually only had 7 QB hurries or something like that. The thing I am happy with is that Kerry Rhodes said that Pace is a really hard worker and a high motor guy in practice, so at least he is working his butt off after getting a big contract.

The Jets aren't even going to rush Gholston in, they are most likely just using him as a pass rusher this year, because we have 2 solid OLBs, I think Bryan Thomas is going to be more like the 06, I heard he is really working hard, especially after admitting to slacking off last year, so he might win the starting job because he is experienced there, it was his job the last 2 years. And Pace is definitely starting at SOLB.
Should be interesting, can't wait to go to Jets camp to see Gholston and the other guys.
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Old 07-16-2008, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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Pass coverage? On 3rd downs the man will be trying to knock out the QB and on 1st and 2nd downs he'll either be doing that or trying to stop the run mostly. He shouldn't be that bad in coverage considering he did it a lot in college as the LEO and was an OLB in high school. I know in the 2006 Michigan game he looked pretty smooth in coverage. I don't think Vern is as ideal a fit at 3-4 OLB as Merriman, Ware, or Wimbley...but he could definitely be a 10-15 sack a year kind of player.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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Most OLB's in a 3-4 that were DE's in college suffer through a learning period of how to play the position, thats just how it is.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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I think it's a bit like with wide receivers, as they get more experience, their route running improves. DE-OLB converts get better in coverage with experience.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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I think it's a bit like with wide receivers, as they get more experience, their route running improves. DE-OLB converts get better in coverage with experience.
They also need to learn how to game plan against opponents and learn how to setup their moves. Watching film and learning your opponent is a huge part of the pro game for DE's that is not really an integral part of the college game. A lot of the great DE's in college get by with a good speed rush bc they are so much more athletic than their opponent.
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Old 07-16-2008, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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If you're in a 34 defense then you should be able to disguise your pass urshing weak coverage guy in the defense.
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Old 07-17-2008, 04:03 AM    (permalink
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Well, seeing as I got an infraction for being stupid, I thought I might give you a good awnser to your question.

I'm assuming that Golston will play on the weakside seeing as you said that Calvin Pace is starting on the strong side

Vernon Golston-
The weakside 3-4 backer is the one with the better pass rush ability. Playing opposite the TE, they rely on the weakside DE to hinder the Offensive tackles ability to block them on the rush. They need to be quite athletic, speedy and capable of beating OTs to the edge and getting behind them to disrupt the QB. Outside of a pass rush assignment, they are generally responsible for covering the runningback coming out of the backfield.
  • Buffalo's Marshawn Lynch caught the ball 18 times
  • Laurence Maroney only caught the ball 4 times last season
  • The last time Bill Parcells was a coach was 2006 and his RBs caught:
Julius Jones caught the Ball 9 times
Marion Barber caught the ball 23 times
So, I wouldn't be to worried about Golstons pass coverage yet if ever.

Calvin Pace-
The strongside 3-4 backer is the one with the more well rounded skill set. They must be able to rush the passer successfully, but will also be required to play coverage against the TE and support the run coverage. They will usually pass the coverage of a RB coming out of the backfield to the strongside inside linebacker.
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:34 AM    (permalink
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Well, seeing as I got an infraction for being stupid, I thought I might give you a good awnser to your question.

I'm assuming that Golston will play on the weakside seeing as you said that Calvin Pace is starting on the strong side

Vernon Golston-
The weakside 3-4 backer is the one with the better pass rush ability. Playing opposite the TE, they rely on the weakside DE to hinder the Offensive tackles ability to block them on the rush. They need to be quite athletic, speedy and capable of beating OTs to the edge and getting behind them to disrupt the QB. Outside of a pass rush assignment, they are generally responsible for covering the runningback coming out of the backfield.
  • Buffalo's Marshawn Lynch caught the ball 18 times
  • Laurence Maroney only caught the ball 4 times last season
  • The last time Bill Parcells was a coach was 2006 and his RBs caught:
Julius Jones caught the Ball 9 times
Marion Barber caught the ball 23 times
So, I wouldn't be to worried about Golstons pass coverage yet if ever.

Calvin Pace-
The strongside 3-4 backer is the one with the more well rounded skill set. They must be able to rush the passer successfully, but will also be required to play coverage against the TE and support the run coverage. They will usually pass the coverage of a RB coming out of the backfield to the strongside inside linebacker.
I know he's a third down back, but Kevin Faulk caught 47 passes last year.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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So Gholstons' skill sets are good for weak side, because hes big and fast, he can beat the OT to the edge with his speed, or by bull rushing him.
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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So Gholstons' skill sets are good for weak side, because hes big and fast, he can beat the OT to the edge with his speed, or by bull rushing him.
Gholston is good for the weakside basically because he's a too small DE who's got good quickness.

He could be a shawn merriman type player on the weakside, but he doesn't have the ability.. possibly yet, to be a coverage player on the opposite side.
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Old 07-17-2008, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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As long as Gholston puts QBs on their back I am happy, because we haven't had a stud pass rusher since Abraham.
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