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Old 08-19-2008, 11:02 AM    (permalink
DMWSackMachine
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My point sounds like it has been fairly well received. To the poster who claimed that #2 WR being our biggest need is a compliment, I would like to just say "Bravo", because that is my point. Some people don't understand that, though. Some people (like Scotty, who won't lay off Patrick to save his life) think that because they are always hearing our #2 WR being criticized and bagged on, then the guy who plays the position must be teh suck. Not so. He's an above average player as far as 2nd WRs go (though certainly not an elite guy, or even a game changer, certainly) and solid enough to get the job done....and that is our "team weakness". Definitely more of a reflection on the quality of the team--which is outstanding--than on the quality of the player--which is fair-to-good.

That's basically what I wanted to clarify, for all the kooks that keep saying "you have a thin WR corps" or "after TO, you have nobody" etc etc.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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I would take Justin gage or roydell williams over crayton.....
that is your choice and you have a right to it. Wouldn't be my line of thinking, and i'm glad you aren't my GM
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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The depth behind TO and Crayton should be more of a concern than Crayton himself. Crayton is fine.
I think that is the key.

Crayton is a fine player. He is very average. But when you put him on a team with an offense like the Cowboys, he is going to put up very nice numbers. He just has a big mouth and utterly failed to back it up in a big game. He is sort of the WR equivalent of his head coach. Haha.

Regardless I think the biggest key is TO to stay healthy. Which you have no reason to believe he wouldn't. An injury to your starting QB can cripple any team, but an injury to TO would cripple the Cowboys more than other teams losing their #1 WR.

It is no suprise the Cowboys are interested in Boldin.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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If we had a Boldin or Roy as a WR2 it would be too much like a video game...In the NFL you have to spread your talent out and there is only so much to go around, I didn't see anyone complaining when the Chargers had no #2 WR for years, it was LT and Gates running that show...We have plenty of talent at other places, at some point you let young guys develop..We will employ 2 TE's with Witten in the slot and Felix Jones quite a bit, a good coordinator can make it work, you don't need a pro bowler as a #2 WR to win a super bowl and thats all that really matters...Granted I think we could make a move for another WR, but then somebody talented won't be resigned, so I would prefer to not go that route.


Vikings had one of the best WR cores in history back in 1998 but they lost to Atlanta, who had the likes of Terrance Mathis and Tim Dwight at WR...It's hardly that important, I'm more concerned about a great defense then I am a #2 WR.
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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I think that is the key.

Crayton is a fine player. He is very average. But when you put him on a team with an offense like the Cowboys, he is going to put up very nice numbers. He just has a big mouth and utterly failed to back it up in a big game. He is sort of the WR equivalent of his head coach. Haha.

Regardless I think the biggest key is TO to stay healthy. Which you have no reason to believe he wouldn't. An injury to your starting QB can cripple any team, but an injury to TO would cripple the Cowboys more than other teams losing their #1 WR.

It is no suprise the Cowboys are interested in Boldin.
i definitely agree.

don't sleep on Felix Jones though. he's looking really good as a pass catcher, and could be another option for them either out of the backfield, or lined up at WR. I still think they shouldve nabbed Chris Johnson or Mendenhall, but i can't knock Jones either, he's doing well.

their offense will be fine as long as TO is healthy. that offense is built around TO.
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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They have the image of Crayton dropping that pass in the playoffs last year and its the only thing that they can remember of him, so they feed the beast in putting him down.


And Scott Norwood had a seven year career and according to wiki, went to the pro bowl once. But people only remember one play he was involved in.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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The thing about Crayton that I don't see in him that I used to see is breakaway speed. He used to excel burning down the sidelines for deep passes, but now has become a possession receiver. I do think that his hands are overly criticized, by a few highlight err lowlight clips of him, but for a long time now, he's been known as the receiver with the best hands on the team. I hope he can show the return of his deep speed this season. His injury fromt he prior year seemed to have altered his speed, which if that is the case, it's unfortunate. I like him in the slot as is though.

I'm 99% sure, Jerry will address WR through FA this offseason rather than the draft. But everyone right now is going to mock us going with a WR. I have my doubts. Between Stanback, Hurd and Austin, I think the team is fairly comfortable with young developing talent at WR.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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It might be too late at this point to develop a future #1 in time, TO will be 36 this December. Especially if the kid is somewhat raw and/or comes out as a junior.

I've always thought that the Cowboys should have let TO walk after this season and pursue Anquan Boldin or Roy Williams instead, but now that they've spent all of this money and still have Ware's contract extension looming, that probably won't happen.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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I'm 99% sure, Jerry will address WR through FA this offseason rather than the draft. But everyone right now is going to mock us going with a WR. I have my doubts. Between Stanback, Hurd and Austin, I think the team is fairly comfortable with young developing talent at WR.
But what else other than safety would the Cowboys draft? I used to think they were going to have to eventually draft a LT to replace the aging Flozell Adams, but I've heard that Doug Free has looked good in camp.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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Face it, people watch TO end of story. Whitten is your team's second option and Crayton is your team's 3rd option. Unless you get to the Super Bowl or actually win it, nobody really cares about the 3rd option on a team. Make to the SB and that is when people start to know the players outside of TO and Whitten. It is the same for every team.
People know New England's 3rd and 4th option, why, because they watch them in the Super Bowl or at least well into the playoffs every year. Same with Indy's WR's, but if I ask you to quickly name the 3rd option on all the teams that made the playoffs, I don't think too many will role off your tongue without some thought so why in the h-ll would anybody care about Dallas's 3rd option. Nobody outside of Dallas fans know much if anything about Clayton and never will until Dallas actually does something in the playoffs.
This post is a waste of time and should be on the Dallas board not here on the main board.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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It might be too late at this point to develop a future #1 in time, TO will be 36 this December. Especially if the kid is somewhat raw and/or comes out as a junior.

I've always thought that the Cowboys should have let TO walk after this season and pursue Anquan Boldin or Roy Williams instead, but now that they've spent all of this money and still have Ware's contract extension looming, that probably won't happen.
Well, I'm really glad you're not the GM. Dropping TO would have been terrible. Age ain't nothin' but a number. The way he conditions himself, he can play effectively for a 2-3 more years. Dropping him now, would've drastically affected any SB talk. Boldin and Williams weren't even on the trade block. If they were, many other teams out there would've pursued them. Not only the Cowboys. Plus, why trade for them this year, and give up a high pick, when you can get them next year when they become UFAs. I doubt both of them get Franchised, if any. ...and Roy still has to prove that he can stay healthy.

And if you think Ware is going to sign anywhere else besides in Dallas, then you are fooling only yourself. Really, you are.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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haha, so he's virtually calling out me saying I won't "lay off" Crayton.

I said I feel #2 WR is a weakness for Dallas. His lack of break away speed and his mouth don't scare me at all. He's consistant, but average. Dallas could do alot better at #2 WR, then again they could do worse. Crayton doesn't scare me one bit, and as the person who mentioned Norwood, he'll be remembered for his gorgeous drop in the playoffs. That's how it is. IMO I feel he's a weakness on that offense.

And you do have a thin WR corps. I love my boy Miles, but he's a return man and will most likely be nothing more than a speedy #4 WR. Hurd is a nice 3rd option, but if he or Crayton goes down, the Cowboys don't have all too much behind them...

and I'm pretty sure I said this once, but no, I can't lay off him to save my life. hah
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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But what else other than safety would the Cowboys draft? I used to think they were going to have to eventually draft a LT to replace the aging Flozell Adams, but I've heard that Doug Free has looked good in camp.
The 1% chance that we do go WR, it'll be for a guy who can step in from Day 1, like Michael Crabtree or DHB. And if you think they'll be out of our range, just remember that Dallas has 2 3rd Rounders and 2 4th Rounders from moves Jerry made in this year's draft. So with 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7 round picks we have sufficient ammo to move up, especially when you consider our needs are few.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Face it, people watch TO end of story. Whitten is your team's second option and Crayton is your team's 3rd option. Unless you get to the Super Bowl or actually win it, nobody really cares about the 3rd option on a team. Make to the SB and that is when people start to know the players outside of TO and Whitten. It is the same for every team.
People know New England's 3rd and 4th option, why, because they watch them in the Super Bowl or at least well into the playoffs every year. Same with Indy's WR's, but if I ask you to quickly name the 3rd option on all the teams that made the playoffs, I don't think too many will role off your tongue without some thought so why in the h-ll would anybody care about Dallas's 3rd option. Nobody outside of Dallas fans know much if anything about Clayton and never will until Dallas actually does something in the playoffs.
This post is a waste of time and should be on the Dallas board not here on the main board.
Well, uh... this is a message board where the more than common NFL fan flocks to. Therefore, conversation here can go beyond the common NFL fan talk. In fact, we welcome any in-depth conversation that anyone wants to bring up to the majority population of the board. You obviously didn't get the point of this thread, which was to dispel the notion that Crayton isn't as bad as even knowledgeable NFL fans believe. It would've been pointless for this conversation to occur in the Cowboys team forum where it wouldn't reach out to the people that DWM is trying to target in the first place.

If your point is that you don't want to care about it, then feel free to not post here. Your post was a much more waste of time than DWM's post.
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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He raises a point though, without media exposure, a player won't be considered top whatever at their position or in some cases even known.
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:23 PM    (permalink
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This topic is highly unnecessary, lol.

.. And overwrought. Did it really require 1,400 words to explain that Patrick Crayton is underrated? I didn't even bother to read that wall of text, even though I agree in principle with the assertion.
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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Well, I'm really glad you're not the GM. Dropping TO would have been terrible. Age ain't nothin' but a number. The way he conditions himself, he can play effectively for a 2-3 more years. Dropping him now, would've drastically affected any SB talk. Boldin and Williams weren't even on the trade block. If they were, many other teams out there would've pursued them. Not only the Cowboys. Plus, why trade for them this year, and give up a high pick, when you can get them next year when they become UFAs. I doubt both of them get Franchised, if any. ...and Roy still has to prove that he can stay healthy.

And if you think Ware is going to sign anywhere else besides in Dallas, then you are fooling only yourself. Really, you are.
1. TO will play, sure, but how healthy will he be by the time the playoffs arrive? See '06 and '07.

2. Williams will be an UFA after '08, Boldin won't be for a few years.

3. I don't think Ware will sign elsewhere, I specifically said his extension is looming. No foolin', really.
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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1) Yeah, D, Geo was saying that us pursuing Boldin or Williams "probably won't happen", not re-signing D-Ware. Little mix up there.

2) As for some people's taste for this topic: if you aren't among the ones making Crayton out to be a detriment to the team, then feel free to move on. My post is aimed at those that think just because everyone tabs our secondary WRs as being the weakness of the team, then they must be bad players. Scotty's judgment is obviously being clouded by the fact that Crayton runs his mouth as well as his status as a Giants fan. Crayton will not hold our team back in any way. And if you want to make that point, then you must concede that Toomer will be a serious problem for the G-Men, since he was actually less productive than Crayton was and is also clearly on the decline physically. Can't have it both ways Scotty, my boy. So now do the Giants have a serious problem at WR? Hmmm.
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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1) Yeah, D, Geo was saying that us pursuing Boldin or Williams "probably won't happen", not re-signing D-Ware. Little mix up there.

2) As for some people's taste for this topic: if you aren't among the ones making Crayton out to be a detriment to the team, then feel free to move on. My post is aimed at those that think just because everyone tabs our secondary WRs as being the weakness of the team, then they must be bad players. Scotty's judgment is obviously being clouded by the fact that Crayton runs his mouth as well as his status as a Giants fan. Crayton will not hold our team back in any way. And if you want to make that point, then you must concede that Toomer will be a serious problem for the G-Men, since he was actually less productive than Crayton was and is also clearly on the decline physically. Can't have it both ways Scotty, my boy. So now do the Giants have a serious problem at WR? Hmmm.
haha this whole post is really a shot at me? I'm honored...

Considering behind Toomer we've got plenty of depth with Smith, Hixon, and even Moss, Manningham, and Hall/Jennings/Thorpe(whoever wins that deathmatch at camp), we're pretty deep.

And I think the Giants could use another WR, always have. Amani is just average in the regular season, but his clutch factor and his uncanny perfection of dragging the toes makes him very important to this team.

Obviously the Giants could upgrade here, but Amani is Eli's security blanket and really his favorite target. Obviously I don't know Romo's tendencies only seeing him 3-5 times a year, so perhaps Crayton is one of his favorite targets and I'm 100% wrong. Crayton could easily be upgraded and the depth at WR for Dallas could be as well.

But now I'm going to make a thread copying off of a popular youtube video about how you're hating on Amani...

And when did I call Crayton a "serious" problem? I don't recall doing that. Stop pulling things out of your ass. It's a tad ridiculous.
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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1) Yeah, D, Geo was saying that us pursuing Boldin or Williams "probably won't happen", not re-signing D-Ware. Little mix up there.

2) As for some people's taste for this topic: if you aren't among the ones making Crayton out to be a detriment to the team, then feel free to move on. My post is aimed at those that think just because everyone tabs our secondary WRs as being the weakness of the team, then they must be bad players. Scotty's judgment is obviously being clouded by the fact that Crayton runs his mouth as well as his status as a Giants fan. Crayton will not hold our team back in any way. And if you want to make that point, then you must concede that Toomer will be a serious problem for the G-Men, since he was actually less productive than Crayton was and is also clearly on the decline physically. Can't have it both ways Scotty, my boy. So now do the Giants have a serious problem at WR? Hmmm.
There is a big difference, the Giants have depth behind their WR position, and even without it as you say Crayton did enough and in your eyes above average, so Toomer did a little worse and that would make him average. Crayton is 29 and Toomer is 34, so I would expect Crayton to do better than a WR, who is physically declining. Plus, if Toomer gets hurt, or doesn't play well the Giants have Steve Smith in the slot who looked great at the end of last season, and should eventually replace Toomer at the #2 spot anyway, and behind him we have people who can step up and play, we have rookie Mario Manningham who arguably could have been a first round pick if it weren't for character issues. Then after that their is Domenik Hixon who has looked great in the pre-season, then their is Sinorice Moss who hasn't lived up to expectations, but he is dangerous when he actually has the ball, and does have some potential, lastly their is DJ Hall who is UDFA who is 6'4 with very good speed. The Cowboys have T.O, excellent, Crayton, average, and then they have Sam Hurd and Isaiah Steinbach, who aren't exactly great receivers, or even great prospects.

EDIT: I was writing when Scottyboy posted. We basically said the same thing.
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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I like him better in the slot as well, which is why I was excited about the Mixture of Hurd/Austin on the outside with Crayton being moved back into the slot.

Now that Austin sprained him MCL i'll have to wait a few weeks.

The thing that Crayton excels at is finding holes in the zone. He always ends up wide open in the defense's pockets.
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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There is a big difference, the Giants have depth behind their WR position, and even without it as you say Crayton did enough and in your eyes above average, so Toomer did a little worse and that would make him average. Crayton is 29 and Toomer is 34, so I would expect Crayton to do better than a WR, who is physically declining. Plus, if Toomer gets hurt, or doesn't play well the Giants have Steve Smith in the slot who looked great at the end of last season, and should eventually replace Toomer at the #2 spot anyway, and behind him we have people who can step up and play, we have rookie Mario Manningham who arguably could have been a first round pick if it weren't for character issues. Then after that their is Domenik Hixon who has looked great in the pre-season, then their is Sinorice Moss who hasn't lived up to expectations, but he is dangerous when he actually has the ball, and does have some potential, lastly their is DJ Hall who is UDFA who is 6'4 with very good speed. The Cowboys have T.O, excellent, Crayton, average, and then they have Sam Hurd and Isaiah Steinbach, who aren't exactly great receivers, or even great prospects.

EDIT: I was writing when Scottyboy posted. We basically said the same thing.
dont forget Austin, our top prospect.
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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dont forget Austin, our top prospect.
i remembered Miles. Love the kid. I've watched him since he was at Monmouth. He's got wheels , but I don't think he'll become more than a nice slot reciever and return man
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:13 PM    (permalink
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1) Yeah, D, Geo was saying that us pursuing Boldin or Williams "probably won't happen", not re-signing D-Ware. Little mix up there.

2) As for some people's taste for this topic: if you aren't among the ones making Crayton out to be a detriment to the team, then feel free to move on. My post is aimed at those that think just because everyone tabs our secondary WRs as being the weakness of the team, then they must be bad players. Scotty's judgment is obviously being clouded by the fact that Crayton runs his mouth as well as his status as a Giants fan. Crayton will not hold our team back in any way. And if you want to make that point, then you must concede that Toomer will be a serious problem for the G-Men, since he was actually less productive than Crayton was and is also clearly on the decline physically. Can't have it both ways Scotty, my boy. So now do the Giants have a serious problem at WR? Hmmm.
Toomer wasn't really less productive at all. He just had less TDs which is probably more to due to the fact that the Cowboys had an overall better offense in general during the regular season. I'd say they are pretty much on par except Toomer is likely to decline like you said. However he is much more reliable (see the playoffsgame where we know what Crayton did, and Toomer did his best Superman impression in the first quarter).
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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Leave Patrick Crayton alone!!!!! Leave her alone!!!!!
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