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Old 01-31-2007, 06:18 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Come on now, what makes Ron Rivera anymore of a "genius" than Mike Zimmer?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to run Cover 2, its one of the most basic schemes in the game. The most basic scheme is run by Indy, Dungy only has 2 defensive packages.

As a Giant fan, quite honestly, Id love to see you guys make the switch to Cover 2. It would be disastrous. Norv Turner in Big D is good enough, but having Rivera too is like buy one get one free.

You guys are built for 3-4, and have pieces in place that are maturing and can be serious players in a year or two. Not only will Rivera stunt their growth as players in the 3-4, but his scheme would be absolutely horrid in Dallas.

Let me get this straight, you guys have major safety issues, and you WANT cover 2 in Dallas? Tim Lewis ran alot of it in NY with safeties who are actually better in coverage than the guys you have, and look at how that turned out. Roy can't cover a ham sandwich let alone a TE up the seam. Bradie James is a run thumper, not a coverage LB. Ware is not strong enough to play full time DE. I would try Roy at LB in this scheme, but I don't know if he's strong enough to engage with fullbacks.

And even if you keep the 3-4, do you honestly think Rivera would get alot out of those guys? He doesn't know anything about the 3-4. Wasn't that the issue with Zimmer? Its like making the same mistake twice.
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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Rivera will be a better head coach than a defensive coordinator, same with Singletary I believe. If Jerry goes out and gives him 2-3 million to be the DC it just again proves that he has no idea what he's doing, he just likes to give money to the biggest names. They should just hire Rivera or Mike and leave Norv as he is. If Jason Garrett is supposed to be such a great offensive mind why would you need him anyway?
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Rivera will be a better head coach than a defensive coordinator, same with Singletary I believe. If Jerry goes out and gives him 2-3 million to be the DC it just again proves that he has no idea what he's doing, he just likes to give money to the biggest names. They should just hire Rivera or Mike and leave Norv as he is. If Jason Garrett is supposed to be such a great offensive mind why would you need him anyway?
I love the idea of Rivera as a HC, or even a DC. I just think its real dumb to happen in Dallas. Rivera should be the new Tampa HC if Gruden is out the door next year, or maybe even Detroit if they continue to suck.
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Come on now, what makes Ron Rivera anymore of a "genius" than Mike Zimmer?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to run Cover 2, its one of the most basic schemes in the game. The most basic scheme is run by Indy, Dungy only has 2 defensive packages.

As a Giant fan, quite honestly, Id love to see you guys make the switch to Cover 2. It would be disastrous. Norv Turner in Big D is good enough, but having Rivera too is like buy one get one free.

You guys are built for 3-4, and have pieces in place that are maturing and can be serious players in a year or two. Not only will Rivera stunt their growth as players in the 3-4, but his scheme would be absolutely horrid in Dallas.

Let me get this straight, you guys have major safety issues, and you WANT cover 2 in Dallas? Tim Lewis ran alot of it in NY with safeties who are actually better in coverage than the guys you have, and look at how that turned out. Roy can't cover a ham sandwich let alone a TE up the seam. Bradie James is a run thumper, not a coverage LB. Ware is not strong enough to play full time DE. I would try Roy at LB in this scheme, but I don't know if he's strong enough to engage with fullbacks.

And even if you keep the 3-4, do you honestly think Rivera would get alot out of those guys? He doesn't know anything about the 3-4. Wasn't that the issue with Zimmer? Its like making the same mistake twice.
I agree, switching from 3-4 to 4-3 with such young, maturing talent and big ticket FA is insanity for team 1 FG from playing the Bears.

Also to your point, Roy Williams in Tampa 2? LOL. SS is a no go in this scheme and even an an OLB he can't shed Fullback or TE blocks.

This gets to my point the interview process is random. Their is little linkage between team strengths and overall philosophy and who is being interviewed. A disconnect between strategy, resources and choice of battle field commanders.
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Rivera will be a better head coach than a defensive coordinator, same with Singletary I believe. If Jerry goes out and gives him 2-3 million to be the DC it just again proves that he has no idea what he's doing, he just likes to give money to the biggest names. They should just hire Rivera or Mike and leave Norv as he is. If Jason Garrett is supposed to be such a great offensive mind why would you need him anyway?
I love the idea of Rivera as a HC, or even a DC. I just think its real dumb to happen in Dallas. Rivera should be the new Tampa HC if Gruden is out the door next year, or maybe even Detroit if they continue to suck.
That's because you have the idea that teams should stick to one scheme forever and ever. Why is Dallas a good 3-4 team? I've yet to really wrap my head around that. You could just as easily switch the team over to a 4-3, and considering how lousy their D was most of this season, I don't think it would be a bad idea. Put D-Ware at a 4-3 DE spot and I think he's even better.
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Come on now, what makes Ron Rivera anymore of a "genius" than Mike Zimmer?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to run Cover 2, its one of the most basic schemes in the game. The most basic scheme is run by Indy, Dungy only has 2 defensive packages.

As a Giant fan, quite honestly, Id love to see you guys make the switch to Cover 2. It would be disastrous. Norv Turner in Big D is good enough, but having Rivera too is like buy one get one free.

You guys are built for 3-4, and have pieces in place that are maturing and can be serious players in a year or two. Not only will Rivera stunt their growth as players in the 3-4, but his scheme would be absolutely horrid in Dallas.

Let me get this straight, you guys have major safety issues, and you WANT cover 2 in Dallas? Tim Lewis ran alot of it in NY with safeties who are actually better in coverage than the guys you have, and look at how that turned out. Roy can't cover a ham sandwich let alone a TE up the seam. Bradie James is a run thumper, not a coverage LB. Ware is not strong enough to play full time DE. I would try Roy at LB in this scheme, but I don't know if he's strong enough to engage with fullbacks.

And even if you keep the 3-4, do you honestly think Rivera would get alot out of those guys? He doesn't know anything about the 3-4. Wasn't that the issue with Zimmer? Its like making the same mistake twice.
I agree, switching from 3-4 to 4-3 with such young, maturing talent and big ticket FA is insanity for team 1 FG from playing the Bears.

Also to your point, Roy Williams in Tampa 2? LOL. SS is a no go in this scheme and even an an OLB he can't shed Fullback or TE blocks.

This gets to my point the interview process is random. Their is little linkage between team strengths and overall philosophy and who is being interviewed. A disconnect between strategy, resources and choice of battle field commanders.
Roy Williams playing safety in any scheme is bordering on laughable.
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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If you don't know already, Cowboys will wait until after the Super Bowl to pick a head coach. Not that it means much.
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Rivera will be a better head coach than a defensive coordinator, same with Singletary I believe. If Jerry goes out and gives him 2-3 million to be the DC it just again proves that he has no idea what he's doing, he just likes to give money to the biggest names. They should just hire Rivera or Mike and leave Norv as he is. If Jason Garrett is supposed to be such a great offensive mind why would you need him anyway?
I love the idea of Rivera as a HC, or even a DC. I just think its real dumb to happen in Dallas. Rivera should be the new Tampa HC if Gruden is out the door next year, or maybe even Detroit if they continue to suck.
That's because you have the idea that teams should stick to one scheme forever and ever. Why is Dallas a good 3-4 team? I've yet to really wrap my head around that. You could just as easily switch the team over to a 4-3, and considering how lousy their D was most of this season, I don't think it would be a bad idea. Put D-Ware at a 4-3 DE spot and I think he's even better.
You have not watched many Cowboy games with a critical eye. D is not that bad and fell apart due to poor play in coverage by Bradie James and Roy Williams.

This idea you present, I hate to say, is extremely inaccurate and unrealistic given the results on the field, the talent base and their strength / weaknesses.

God bless Rivera but not as our DC or HC right now.
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Rivera will be a better head coach than a defensive coordinator, same with Singletary I believe. If Jerry goes out and gives him 2-3 million to be the DC it just again proves that he has no idea what he's doing, he just likes to give money to the biggest names. They should just hire Rivera or Mike and leave Norv as he is. If Jason Garrett is supposed to be such a great offensive mind why would you need him anyway?
I love the idea of Rivera as a HC, or even a DC. I just think its real dumb to happen in Dallas. Rivera should be the new Tampa HC if Gruden is out the door next year, or maybe even Detroit if they continue to suck.
That's because you have the idea that teams should stick to one scheme forever and ever. Why is Dallas a good 3-4 team? I've yet to really wrap my head around that. You could just as easily switch the team over to a 4-3, and considering how lousy their D was most of this season, I don't think it would be a bad idea. Put D-Ware at a 4-3 DE spot and I think he's even better.
This defense will be fine. Before their titanic collapse, they were the 2nd ranked unit in the league. And remember this defense is real young. Alot of mental breakdowns, it will get better with age. Carpenter is coming along, Ware should put it together this upcoming year, their DEs should play better.

Making this defense play Cover 2 is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Ware is NOT better at DE, he won't hold up for a whole game, and lacks the pass rushing ability to be a Cover 2 DE. Ellis is on his last leg, he's better off as a situational pass rusher in their 3-4 scheme.

And sticking to the same scheme makes sense to me 90% of the time. It allows you to fix holes in your defense and turn it around much quicker than revamping the entire unit to fit a new philosophy.



Especially a Cover 2 philosophy that sucks, lol.
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Come on now, what makes Ron Rivera anymore of a "genius" than Mike Zimmer?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to run Cover 2, its one of the most basic schemes in the game. The most basic scheme is run by Indy, Dungy only has 2 defensive packages.

As a Giant fan, quite honestly, Id love to see you guys make the switch to Cover 2. It would be disastrous. Norv Turner in Big D is good enough, but having Rivera too is like buy one get one free.

You guys are built for 3-4, and have pieces in place that are maturing and can be serious players in a year or two. Not only will Rivera stunt their growth as players in the 3-4, but his scheme would be absolutely horrid in Dallas.

Let me get this straight, you guys have major safety issues, and you WANT cover 2 in Dallas? Tim Lewis ran alot of it in NY with safeties who are actually better in coverage than the guys you have, and look at how that turned out. Roy can't cover a ham sandwich let alone a TE up the seam. Bradie James is a run thumper, not a coverage LB. Ware is not strong enough to play full time DE. I would try Roy at LB in this scheme, but I don't know if he's strong enough to engage with fullbacks.

And even if you keep the 3-4, do you honestly think Rivera would get alot out of those guys? He doesn't know anything about the 3-4. Wasn't that the issue with Zimmer? Its like making the same mistake twice.
I agree, switching from 3-4 to 4-3 with such young, maturing talent and big ticket FA is insanity for team 1 FG from playing the Bears.

Also to your point, Roy Williams in Tampa 2? LOL. SS is a no go in this scheme and even an an OLB he can't shed Fullback or TE blocks.

This gets to my point the interview process is random. Their is little linkage between team strengths and overall philosophy and who is being interviewed. A disconnect between strategy, resources and choice of battle field commanders.
Roy Williams playing safety in any scheme is bordering on laughable.
We 100% agree Roy is not a Tampa 2 SS and not physically prepared for Tampa 2 WILL.
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Rivera will be a better head coach than a defensive coordinator, same with Singletary I believe. If Jerry goes out and gives him 2-3 million to be the DC it just again proves that he has no idea what he's doing, he just likes to give money to the biggest names. They should just hire Rivera or Mike and leave Norv as he is. If Jason Garrett is supposed to be such a great offensive mind why would you need him anyway?
I love the idea of Rivera as a HC, or even a DC. I just think its real dumb to happen in Dallas. Rivera should be the new Tampa HC if Gruden is out the door next year, or maybe even Detroit if they continue to suck.
That's because you have the idea that teams should stick to one scheme forever and ever. Why is Dallas a good 3-4 team? I've yet to really wrap my head around that. You could just as easily switch the team over to a 4-3, and considering how lousy their D was most of this season, I don't think it would be a bad idea. Put D-Ware at a 4-3 DE spot and I think he's even better.
This defense will be fine. Before their titanic collapse, they were the 2nd ranked unit in the league. And remember this defense is real young. Alot of mental breakdowns, it will get better with age. Carpenter is coming along, Ware should put it together this upcoming year, their DEs should play better.

Making this defense play Cover 2 is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Ware is NOT better at DE, he won't hold up for a whole game, and lacks the pass rushing ability to be a Cover 2 DE. Ellis is on his last leg, he's better off as a situational pass rusher in their 3-4 scheme.

And sticking to the same scheme makes sense to me 90% of the time. It allows you to fix holes in your defense and turn it around much quicker than revamping the entire unit to fit a new philosophy.



Especially a Cover 2 philosophy that sucks, lol.
The principal breakdowns where Roy Williams and Bradie James in coverage. Pass rush did not help but those two really hurt us with poor play in zone coverage.

Also, Ware is a near ideal 3-4 OLB. He can improve but damn that would be a big change.
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Old 01-31-2007, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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I don't think there is any indication that Rivera will come in here and change to a Tampa 2.

Let's consider that Lovie has been in Chicago 3 years. Rivera has been coaching the Cover 2 for 3 years. It's not as if Rivera has ONLY coached a cover 2.

Ron Rivera is a former All American Linebacker for Cal. He played on the 1985 Bears team. In 1999 he coached LB's for the Philadelphia Eagles.

So up until 2004 he had ZERO experience with the Cover 2. What makes everyone just assume that is his defense of choice?

I'll take his time under Buddy Ryan anytime for a solid resume of how to run pressure defensive schemes.
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Old 01-31-2007, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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I don't think there is any indication that Rivera will come in here and change to a Tampa 2.

Let's consider that Lovie has been in Chicago 3 years. Rivera has been coaching the Cover 2 for 3 years. It's not as if Rivera has ONLY coached a cover 2.

Ron Rivera is a former All American Linebacker for Cal. He played on the 1985 Bears team. In 1999 he coached LB's for the Philadelphia Eagles.

So up until 2004 he had ZERO experience with the Cover 2. What makes everyone just assume that is his defense of choice?

I'll take his time under Buddy Ryan anytime for a solid resume of how to run pressure defensive schemes.
He's been on record saying that he will run basically the same defense as Lovie when he gets a HC job. If I can find a link I'll provide it.
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Old 01-31-2007, 08:24 PM    (permalink
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I don't think there is any indication that Rivera will come in here and change to a Tampa 2.

Let's consider that Lovie has been in Chicago 3 years. Rivera has been coaching the Cover 2 for 3 years. It's not as if Rivera has ONLY coached a cover 2.

Ron Rivera is a former All American Linebacker for Cal. He played on the 1985 Bears team. In 1999 he coached LB's for the Philadelphia Eagles.

So up until 2004 he had ZERO experience with the Cover 2. What makes everyone just assume that is his defense of choice?

I'll take his time under Buddy Ryan anytime for a solid resume of how to run pressure defensive schemes.
He's been on record saying that he will run basically the same defense as Lovie when he gets a HC job. If I can find a link I'll provide it.
He also had an interview on the radio here in Dallas saying that it doesn't matter if the team he goes to runs a 3-4 or a 4-3 because he'll run a defense suited to what the players can do well and not force his scheme on any team unsuited to run it.

The question was posed by the Dallas media about whether he'd change the scheme or not.
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Old 01-31-2007, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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Which coach do you guys, as Cowboy fans, want the most?
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Old 01-31-2007, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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Which coach do you guys, as Cowboy fans, want the most?
I would say the most desired is Wade Phillips.
Followed by Singletary
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[00:37] <toonster> i mean, i can talk dirty
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Old 02-01-2007, 12:56 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by thule
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgrenade
Which coach do you guys, as Cowboy fans, want the most?
I would say the most desired is Wade Phillips.
Followed by Singletary
Then why is there all of this hype about Turner?
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Old 02-01-2007, 01:48 AM    (permalink
thule
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Originally Posted by edgrenade
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Originally Posted by thule
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Originally Posted by edgrenade
Which coach do you guys, as Cowboy fans, want the most?
I would say the most desired is Wade Phillips.
Followed by Singletary
Then why is there all of this hype about Turner?
Because he was the head candidate and had lots of ties back to JJ and Aikman was really hyping him.
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Old 02-01-2007, 02:25 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

The principal breakdowns where Roy Williams and Bradie James in coverage. Pass rush did not help but those two really hurt us with poor play in zone coverage.
Hey cowboysforever :D

btw about 3-4, tampa-2 and so on, I think that we have to wait until Riviera is interviewed.. I'm pretty sure that jerry will not hire him if he can't coach the 3-4...

edit: what about some 46 in Big-D? I would like to see our defense as the Baltimore one, very versatile, runs a lot of formation.. Do you think Rivera should be able to do that?
But we need our Ed Reed..
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Old 02-01-2007, 06:20 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Modano
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd

The principal breakdowns where Roy Williams and Bradie James in coverage. Pass rush did not help but those two really hurt us with poor play in zone coverage.
Hey cowboysforever :D

btw about 3-4, tampa-2 and so on, I think that we have to wait until Riviera is interviewed.. I'm pretty sure that jerry will not hire him if he can't coach the 3-4...

edit: what about some 46 in Big-D? I would like to see our defense as the Baltimore one, very versatile, runs a lot of formation.. Do you think Rivera should be able to do that?
But we need our Ed Reed..
Exactly, to run an effective 46 you have to have a dominant coverage safety which we don't have.
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:20 AM    (permalink
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http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/story.../31/183131/262

We don't have to change back 4-3 if Rivera is HC.
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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We don't have to change back 4-3 if Rivera is HC.
Sounds to me like he would make it a slow change but would still prefer the 4-3 eventually. Sort of like BP and his first two years in Dallas. I just can't see Rivera coming here and not wanting to eventually get the type of people to play his system, unless Jerry just flat out mandated the he would play the 3-4 and nothing more. While its obvious that we are lacking some of the guys to play the Tampa 2, I think we could easily be a 3-4/4-3 hybrid, with multiple looks, and thats what I think Rivera would do until such time as he felt he could run the sytem he wanted full time.
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Old 02-01-2007, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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Just thought some of you guys might be interested in watching this. Its a clip of Bill Parcells coaching punt returns to his team when he was with the Jets.

He just seemed so much more energetic back then.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6pFyzI55lf4
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Old 02-01-2007, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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People need to quit just flippantly throwing out lineups like:

RE Ware
DT Spears
NT Ferguson
LE Ellis

WOLB Carpenter
MLB James
SOLB Ayodele

and thinking that its just that easy. IT'S NOT. Someone needs to tell Mickey "Smart Ass" Spagnola this, too.

It would be a complete and utter flip in defensive philosophies and responsibilities for us to do that. Ayodele already was unspectacular as the strong side 'backer in Jax. James was originally a weakside guy in our old 4-3. Carpenter always played strongside in college, and is probably too big to be ideally suited for the weakside in the pros. Ware doesn't have the frame to stand up to a 300+ lb LT for 60+ plays a game. Spears couldn't even crack the DT rotation this year in the nickel when we were in dire need of any kind of pass rush. Canty is much too lanky to play inside on a full-time basis. Ellis is near the end of his career, in which case we would need a replacement.

Add to all this that each of the young players - who are just now getting on their feet - would have a complete and utter makeover of their assignments and checks for their position, and you are just opening up hornets nest. It's a bad idea, and will lead to disaster.

Not only that, but one of the main reason's that Bill liked to run the 3-4 was because it was easier to acquire players that are suited for it, because there are so many more 4-3 teams in the league, thus leading to a higher demand for players that fit the "mold" of a 4-3 scheme, and making it easy to pick up players that fall "between" positions in a 4-3, but are ideal for a 3-4. This has shifter a little with the increased popularity of the 3-4 in the league, but is still true to an extent. The perfect example of this is the DeMarcus Ware/Shawne Merriman draft. If there would have been two guys that were as perfectly suited to be a dynamic pass rushing 4-3 end as they were to be 3-4 OLBs, neither one would have gotten out of the top 5 (especially in a relatively weak top tier of talent like that draft had). As was, they both fell out of the top 10, and we ended up with a talent that we never should have had a shot at, as did San Diego.

We are not changing. I would be willing to bet a large sum of money. And if we somehow DO change, I am personally boy-cotting next season.....unless we win
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Old 02-01-2007, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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Manusky is the 49ers new DC...
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