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Old 02-06-2007, 09:04 AM    (permalink
njx9
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Brady does more with less than anybody.
i still find that that's a garbage argument that's used FAR too often to really be meaningful anymore. this year he did more with nothing, and even then, "nothing" is qualified as "no WRs but a great running game and some pretty good TEs". it's like, people see one thing with a low talent level on the pats and instantly the team is bereft of talent. that's obvious crap.
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Brady does more with less than anybody.
i still find that that's a garbage argument that's used FAR too often to really be meaningful anymore. this year he did more with nothing, and even then, "nothing" is qualified as "no WRs but a great running game and some pretty good TEs". it's like, people see one thing with a low talent level on the pats and instantly the team is bereft of talent. that's obvious crap.
I would call it a solid running game, not a great one. A great running game needs a YPC average of at least 4.5, while Dillon was around 4.1, and Maroney around 4.3. It wasn't bad, but it was hardly great.
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:11 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Brady does more with less than anybody.
i still find that that's a garbage argument that's used FAR too often to really be meaningful anymore. this year he did more with nothing, and even then, "nothing" is qualified as "no WRs but a great running game and some pretty good TEs". it's like, people see one thing with a low talent level on the pats and instantly the team is bereft of talent. that's obvious crap.
I would call it a solid running game, not a great one. A great running game needs a YPC average of at least 4.5, while Dillon was around 4.1, and Maroney around 4.3. It wasn't bad, but it was hardly great.
if a running back had 1500 yards and 20 tds, he had a great season. i don't know why the standards are different just because they were splitting carries (this isn't LT and Turner, where LT still had the VAST majority of the carries).
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Brady does more with less than anybody.
i still find that that's a garbage argument that's used FAR too often to really be meaningful anymore. this year he did more with nothing, and even then, "nothing" is qualified as "no WRs but a great running game and some pretty good TEs". it's like, people see one thing with a low talent level on the pats and instantly the team is bereft of talent. that's obvious crap.
Well, his offensive line while blocking well, is not nearly as good as Brady makes it look. Brady is so good at creating time for himself, he barely gets sacked because of his release, and pocket presence.

As far as wideouts, he has nobody who can stretch the field, or catch the ball for that matter.

In terms of TEs, I honestly think his TEs are overrated. Ben Watson has not lived up to expectations, and was not entirely effective. Graham has solid hands, but you won't mistake him for Gates anytime soon.

As far as the run game is concerned, Dillen is done. He has a good back in Maroney, but Bellichick underutilized him by giving too many carries to Dillen.


There is plenty of talent on this team, I agree with you. But I think most of it is on the defensive side of the ball. The offense lives and dies with Brady. He has good TEs (not great but good) and a decent run game, but still, he does an amazing job. He was a defensive choke job away from winning another SB.
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:20 AM    (permalink
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i should qualify my original bit by saying i believe brady is 1a or 1b in current nfl quarterbacks. but i am really sick of people acting like brady does it all by himself and that, when he fails in the playoffs, it was lack of talent or execution by other folks, when for anyone else in the league, it was because the QB choked (like DMW was implying).

but more, i'm really sick of people acting like brady is the only talented player on the entire team. iirc, brady did not lead the patriots to the super bowl in 2002 (that was bledsoe). brady threw the last interception against indy (not reche). the patriots defense was not, in their three super bowl years, equivalent to whatever "product" detroit was putting on the field.

so while i think you're right that if brady is down, the offense stalls (see: new england vs. denver in the last 5 years), it's exceptionally dishonest (duplicitous, perhaps) to suggest that he is the only reason that team has ever done anything.
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9
i should qualify my original bit by saying i believe brady is 1a or 1b in current nfl quarterbacks. but i am really sick of people acting like brady does it all by himself and that, when he fails in the playoffs, it was lack of talent or execution by other folks, when for anyone else in the league, it was because the QB choked (like DMW was implying).

but more, i'm really sick of people acting like brady is the only talented player on the entire team. iirc, brady did not lead the patriots to the super bowl in 2002 (that was bledsoe). brady threw the last interception against indy (not reche). the patriots defense was not, in their three super bowl years, equivalent to whatever "product" detroit was putting on the field.

so while i think you're right that if brady is down, the offense stalls (see: new england vs. denver in the last 5 years), it's exceptionally dishonest (duplicitous, perhaps) to suggest that he is the only reason that team has ever done anything.
Oh of course. I agree with that. Brady doesn't win 3 SBs without some luck, a great defense, and for 1 year, a very solid run game. But at the same time, I think he's largely responsible for their offensive success. He's never had a true 1 receiver, and for his 2nd SB, had a mediocre run game. He's definately a leader, and has lead the team to victories, I know not all the time they were TDs, but who cares, he got them in scoring position.

No qb can do it by themself, Montana had Rice and Taylor, Elway did it when he got TD, etc. But I think out of the great QBs of the past 20 years, Brady has had more success with less offensive talent than any other qb. You can make an argument for Favre and Elway, but Elway didn't win a SB until he had Sharpe and TD and Rod Smith. Favre you could make an argument for.

Remember, Im projecting here. I don't think he's there yet, but I think he will be top 5 when its all said and done.
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Old 02-06-2007, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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1)Unitas
2)Montana
3)Favre
4)Elway
5)Baugh
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Old 02-06-2007, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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1. Peyton Manning
2.a) Dan Marino
2.b) Joe Montana
3. Bret Favre
4. John Elway
5. Steve Young

I've seen em' all and Peyton is the greatest I've ever seen.

As a football player Unitas was overrated imo, exceptional for his time but, he shouldn't be on this list. Still one of my old favs.
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Old 02-06-2007, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87
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Favre isn't getting a ton of love on here. Just an observation.
Nobody views him as top 5 except packer fans. For the most part anyways.
I think it's because he won those MVP's and the Super Bowl a long time ago. People are thinking of Favre these last few years where he hasn't had a team around him that was as good as his best years and letting that diminish his legacy a little bit. All the other players in people's top 5's are retired for the most part so that makes them look at the career as a whole. For example, when people put Dan Marino in the top 5 they never thought of his final year. I guarantee if Favre just retired he'd be in more top 5's. I'm not saying the last few years have tarnished his legacy cause when you look at it in whole it's as impressive as anybody's, it's just that people don't see the "greatness" they saw years ago. I think in the end more people will realize that than they do right now, because in the back of their mind there's retirement talk every year, team isn't successful as in years past, and some people get tired of hearing about him. I'm not saying they're taking this into account intentionally when ranking him, just indirectly and unintentionally.
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Old 02-06-2007, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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1. John Elway
2. Dan Marino
3. Joe Montana
4. Brett Favre
5. Peyton Manning
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Old 02-06-2007, 12:56 PM    (permalink
 
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Wow, Favre is my all time favorite player, and I wouldn't say he is the best QB ever. I'll do my pre-WC offense, and my post-WC offense(I chose that time period because the West Coast offense completely changed offenses completely, making the statistics impossible to compare. Not to mention, the rules were changed to open up the passing game in 1978.)
i figured someone would be surprised. i recall seeing favre sprinting straight to the right (around '94-'95) and firing the ball across his body 60 yards downfield on a rope for a completion. elway was the only other quarterback i think had a vague chance of making the same throw. and that's just on thing that popped into mind.
:-D, that was against the Lions in the first round of the playoffs. Elway definitely could make a throw like that. I think his arm may have even been stronger than Favre's ever was.
It was a 40 yard td pass and somehow Sterling Sharpe was wide open in the end zone. How do you let Sterling Sharpe wide open in the endzone. That td just baffles me. It was a great game though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_pla...troit_Lions_24
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Old 02-06-2007, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
1. Dylan
2. Dylan
3. Dylan
4. Dylan
5. Dylan

Cause he spit hot fire....

But seriously, top 5

1. Unitas
2. Montana
3. Elway
4. Marino
5. Brady (im projecting here)

To me, there are only 2 players in NFL history that changed the game at a magnitude that will never be reached by anyone else. Thats Lawrence Taylor on defense, and Johhny Unitas on offense. The man was so ahead of his time, its not even funny. Peyton Manning just recently broke his all time yardage record for the Colts, and remember, Unitas played in the 50s/60s! Totally different era, for him to play like a qb from the 80s during the 50s.....he was so ahead of his time. Changed the game. I like Montana better, but you gotta respect what Unitas did during his era. Unbelievable. Id give Tarkenton some love, but the man just choked in the SB too much.

As far as Brady goes, Im projecting here. He's this generations Montana. Everyone wants to kill him now that Peyton won a SB and Brady lost, but thats dumb, I can point out the 49-3 asswhoopin the Giants gave Montana, or the 15-13 boxing match with him, but that doesn't mean he stinks. He was amazing, and so is Brady. Brady does more with less than anybody.
Plus, nobody will ever break Unitas' record of most consecutive games with a touchdown pass (47). I don't think anybody has ever come within ten games of it.

Consider that he's also sixth on the all-time touchdown pass list, even though, like you said, he played in an era with very little passing and a twelve or fourteen game season. He was an revolutionary player, and played far before his time. His greatest asset, though, was how tough of an SOB he was.
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Old 02-06-2007, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
1. Dylan
2. Dylan
3. Dylan
4. Dylan
5. Dylan

Cause he spit hot fire....

But seriously, top 5

1. Unitas
2. Montana
3. Elway
4. Marino
5. Brady (im projecting here)

To me, there are only 2 players in NFL history that changed the game at a magnitude that will never be reached by anyone else. Thats Lawrence Taylor on defense, and Johhny Unitas on offense. The man was so ahead of his time, its not even funny. Peyton Manning just recently broke his all time yardage record for the Colts, and remember, Unitas played in the 50s/60s! Totally different era, for him to play like a qb from the 80s during the 50s.....he was so ahead of his time. Changed the game. I like Montana better, but you gotta respect what Unitas did during his era. Unbelievable. Id give Tarkenton some love, but the man just choked in the SB too much.

As far as Brady goes, Im projecting here. He's this generations Montana. Everyone wants to kill him now that Peyton won a SB and Brady lost, but thats dumb, I can point out the 49-3 asswhoopin the Giants gave Montana, or the 15-13 boxing match with him, but that doesn't mean he stinks. He was amazing, and so is Brady. Brady does more with less than anybody.
Plus, nobody will ever break Unitas' record of most consecutive games with a touchdown pass (47). I don't think anybody has ever come within ten games of it.

Consider that he's also sixth on the all-time touchdown pass list, even though, like you said, he played in an era with very little passing and a twelve or fourteen game season. He was an revolutionary player, and played far before his time. His greatest asset, though, was how tough of an SOB he was.
now that two people have said the same thing: what cornerbacks (comparable in *coverage* to those playing today) did unitas play against?
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Old 02-06-2007, 01:50 PM    (permalink
 
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Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87
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Favre isn't getting a ton of love on here. Just an observation.
Nobody views him as top 5 except packer fans. For the most part anyways.
I think it's because he won those MVP's and the Super Bowl a long time ago. People are thinking of Favre these last few years where he hasn't had a team around him that was as good as his best years and letting that diminish his legacy a little bit. All the other players in people's top 5's are retired for the most part so that makes them look at the career as a whole. For example, when people put Dan Marino in the top 5 they never thought of his final year. I guarantee if Favre just retired he'd be in more top 5's. I'm not saying the last few years have tarnished his legacy cause when you look at it in whole it's as impressive as anybody's, it's just that people don't see the "greatness" they saw years ago. I think in the end more people will realize that than they do right now, because in the back of their mind there's retirement talk every year, team isn't successful as in years past, and some people get tired of hearing about him. I'm not saying they're taking this into account intentionally when ranking him, just indirectly and unintentionally.
here's what I get out of this..."Packer fans (and Favre) are living in the past"
Probably a reason they want to trade for Moss
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9
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Wow, Favre is my all time favorite player, and I wouldn't say he is the best QB ever. I'll do my pre-WC offense, and my post-WC offense(I chose that time period because the West Coast offense completely changed offenses completely, making the statistics impossible to compare. Not to mention, the rules were changed to open up the passing game in 1978.)
i figured someone would be surprised. i recall seeing favre sprinting straight to the right (around '94-'95) and firing the ball across his body 60 yards downfield on a rope for a completion. elway was the only other quarterback i think had a vague chance of making the same throw. and that's just on thing that popped into mind.
:-D, that was against the Lions in the first round of the playoffs. Elway definitely could make a throw like that. I think his arm may have even been stronger than Favre's ever was.
It was a 40 yard td pass and somehow Sterling Sharpe was wide open in the end zone. How do you let Sterling Sharpe wide open in the endzone. That td just baffles me. It was a great game though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_pla...troit_Lions_24
He still threw it 60 yards on a rope. He rolled out and launched it to the back of the endzone.

No one is saying that he is as good of a QB as he was in 96. But he is still an above average starting QB in the NFL.
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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I think Elway and Favre have the two strongest arms in the history of the league and would pay money to see both of them in their prime in a throwing contest.
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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I have to break it down in decades.

The 60's: Bart Starr. I wasn't old enough to watch games, but he is the obvious choice for me.

The 70's: Terry Bradshaw. Part of a team that won 4 superbowls and was an incredible leader. All Steelers players said he was the key to thier championships. Also called all his own plays. He was the a qb who knew when and what play to call. Even to this day most qb's still do not have that ability.

2: Fran Tarkenton. Helped lead his team to 3 superbowls and was an incredible scrambler that also passed for alot of yards.

3: Bob Griese. Helped lead his team to back to back superbowl wins, was part of the perfect season and was also a good consistent passer.

4: Roger Staubach. Again a superbowl winner and he also was a very good leader. Didn't have many passing yards but also was a great scrambler.

5: Ken Stabler. Another guy who doesn't get enough credit. Nicknamed the snake for his elusiveness and was a very good passer also. Was able to help Oakland always be a contender.

In the 80's: Dan Marino. Didn't have superbowl wins, but basically holds every record without having a running game that would get a 1000 yards or a defense.

2: Joe Montana: Obvious why he is on the list. Won 4 superbowls and didn't throw int's in postseason play. Nuff said.

3: Jim Plunkett: Helped the Riders win 2 superbowls and was a great team leader. Made very good decisions and also was very smart.

4: Phil Simms: Helped lead the Giants to 2 superbowl wins evn though he was hurt for the second superbowl, he still led the team all year to the playoffs. Made good decisions, and if you watched him play, you know he was good.

5: Dan Fouts: Didn't have much of a defense around him and his running game was pretty good in certain seasons, but this guy was a very accurate passer and always had San Diego running for the playoffs. Very smart leader and also threw for over 40,000 yards.

In the 90's: Jim Kelly. He didn't win a superbowl, but helped lead his team to 4 straight appearences. Was a very accurate passer and very smart in the pocket.

2: Troy Aikman: Helped his team win 3 superbowls and also was a very good leader. Alot like Staubach, didn't have alot of passing yards, but made few mistakes and knew how to help keep some egos in check.

3: Brett Favre: Helped his team win a superbowl and get another visit to the game. Also he is a throwback to the tough mentality. Everyone pretty much knows what this guy brings every week. He does make alot of mistakes resulting in turnovers, hence the reason to be 3 on my list.

4: Dan Marino: Makes the list twice. By this time the marks brothers were gone, still had no running game, defense still choked every year and all he did was still put up the same consistent numbers. Don't really recall who his wideouts were for most of the decade either.

5: John Elway: I think the 90's is when he actually started to become a good qb. He helped lead his team in the 80's, but they drafted a guy in Maddox to take his place cause he really wasn't much more than an average qb. In the 90's his decision making became much better and with the help of Terrel Davis and a good defense was able to help his team win 2 superbowls.

In the current decade, the qbs that standout are: Tom Brady. The guy has helped his team win 3 superbowls and he really doesn't make many mistakes. Very consistent passer and is calm when the game is coming down to the wire.

2: Peyton Manning. Sure this guy has all the weapons around him, but so does every great qb. He makes great decisions and like Bradshaw has the ability to call his own plays. Also winning the superbowl this past year makes it look all the better.

As for the rest of the list, Kinda hard to say right now. Alot of up and comers with the likes of, Big Ben, Rivers, Carson Palmer, Drew Brees. etc. It's to hard to say who was the best, cause the game seems to change every decade. Also some guys were better leaders than others and some maybe had more talent, but there is alot more to being a great qb than looking at superbowl wins or probowl visits. Alot of hall of famers didn't go to alot of probowls and alot of probowlers aren't going to the Hall Of fame either.
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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fwiw - denver drafted maddox because dan reeves is the worst personnel evaluator in the history of the league, not because of anything with elway (besides maybe age).
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Not true. I was living in Denver at the time and that was all the talk. There was even talk of trading him.
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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Best QB's of all time...

1) Terry Bradshaw

2) Ben Roethlisberger

3) Neil O'donnell

4) Kordell Stewart

5) Tommy Maddox
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:17 PM    (permalink
someone447
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Terry Bradshaw is too high, he was a very good QB, but I wouldn't say great.

Jim Plunkett is too high, he shouldn't be on a top 5 list for the 80s, he was hardly able to even keep a starting job.

Troy Aikman didnt do anything that 20-30 other QBs in the 90s couldnt have done.

Elway deserves to be on both the 80s and 90s lists. How you don't have Favre as the QB of the 90s is beyond my comprehension. He had 3 straight MVPs and was an 8 time pro bowler. Like was said earlier in the thread, you are putting too much stock in these past 2 years. Ya, he always threw interceptions, but that was trying to make throws that no one else could possibly make, many of which he did.

You have put way too much stock into being on a good team.
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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that's just not the case. any talk of trading him was because dan reeves was a moron, not because it was actually a likely scenario.

Maddox was drafted in 1992. Denver had just come off a 12-4 season (hence picking at #25) with gaston green as the leading rusher (yeah, who?! is the right question to ask) and mike young (see previous) as the leading receiver with a massive 44 catches. carl pickens, a highly rated receiver, was still on the board. reeves opted for maddox because he a) is mind-numbingly stupid b) wanted elway's heir on board c) was trying to push elway out of town. part of the repercussions were shanahan's dismissal from the team (as he had taken elway's side).
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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Bart Starr can't be the number one QB for the 60s. You are forgetting about Johnny Unitas.
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by someone447
Terry Bradshaw is too high, he was a very good QB, but I wouldn't say great.

Jim Plunkett is too high, he shouldn't be on a top 5 list for the 80s, he was hardly able to even keep a starting job.

Troy Aikman didnt do anything that 20-30 other QBs in the 90s couldnt have done.

Elway deserves to be on both the 80s and 90s lists. How you don't have Favre as the QB of the 90s is beyond my comprehension. He had 3 straight MVPs and was an 8 time pro bowler. Like was said earlier in the thread, you are putting too much stock in these past 2 years. Ya, he always threw interceptions, but that was trying to make throws that no one else could possibly make, many of which he did.

You have put way too much stock into being on a good team.
Do you know how to read? Farve is on my 90's list. Iv'e read most of your posts in this topic and I have to say that your not the brightest bulb in the light. You go on people you like not what they have done. I maybe wrong, but I would bet you didn't watch much football before 1999. After all this is only opinion and not fact.
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Old 02-06-2007, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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1. Moon
2. Montana
3. Elway
4. Marino
5. Peyton
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