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Old 11-04-2008, 02:47 PM    (permalink
terribletowel39
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umm...Bro.
Kevin Williams is DT. However beastly he maybe, he is a DT.
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
Tuck impressed people the time we played SD in SD, and he ran down LT from behind, lol. I think some Chargers fans can vouche or remember that. That's when Giants fans thought he was special. At first I was like who the hell is that? Then saw it was Tuck and was like wow, thats some motor on him to stay with the play and run down LT. The thing this organization always did well was bargain hunt.

We don't have first round pro bowlers or stars. Our guys are all 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders. Tiki, Strahan, Toomer, Osi, Tuck, Jacobs, Snee, David D., Webster, and so on are all guys that aren't first rounders.
Thats the play when I knew Tuck would become a good player, Tomlinson (dont like to call him LT cause theres only one LT) was 10 yards ahead of Tuck in a full sprint when Tuck came chasing him down from behind to tackle him. Tomlinson said in the press conference that when he turned around he was at least 10 yards back then he looked back again and Tuck was on his ass running like the Terminator. He said something to the effect that he hopes all ND players are not that fast, and he has to check Notre Dames players 40 times.
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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Well I am going by our system because I know our system as opposed to another team's system. So if that's the case then fine, but I am not sure about the double team and triple teams.

As a coach I find fans throw those terms around way too much. Remember there are only 5 offensive linemen so if one guy has 3 guys on him, then that's a problem. Again I would have to see film on that and then I can tell you what the protection is. Are you talking running or passing play?

I am guessing passing.. If that's the case what's the protection and how many step drop is the qb taking? Is it a 3 man slide protection, 4 man slide protection, Full line slide protection? Is it BOB on the otherside then? What are the backs doing? So it's not quite as simple as that as you can see.

One thing that people miss is that ALL teams have different protections in terms of OL. So that explains why DEs can go for a couple games without sacks. It has nothing to do with consistency but more to do with the gameplan and protections being called by the offense.

But again my point had to with our system compared to others. Perhaps teams copy us, I don;t know because I don't have the NFL ticket. All I know is my team's system, which I would say my forte being the offense, since I coach that side of the ball. I normally fast forward through the defense when I break down film to get back to our offense.


I know what you are talking about. I don't mean triple teams as in 3 guys stand and block him. More like 2 block, and a chip waiting in the wings if he gets by. The thing is, we aren't a blitzing team. We rely on getting pressure with the front four. So, we've got RE Abraham NT Moorehead UT Babineaux LE Anderson to get pressure. Moorehead isn't doing much of anything. Babineaux is a good pocket pusher, but far from a bigtime pass rusher. Anderson up until the past few weeks has been terrible at getting pressure. So when you are rushing 4 guys and one of them is an elite threat with the others not doing another to scare you, the OL can spare a blocker for a double, and have a chip waiting in the wings. Now I'm not saying this happens every play, but it happens enough to the point where you take notice. Watching the tape, I noticed that for most of the 2nd and 3rd quarter (Abe barely played the 4th), the Raiders relied heavily on a pure double team on Abraham with a tackle and Zach Miller. John's going to thrive in one on one spots, because he can use his outstanding speed and quickness to blow by OT, or he can bring out his moves. Now I'm not calling Abraham the best DE (although this year I would), but he really is a beast.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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I know what you are talking about. I don't mean triple teams as in 3 guys stand and block him. More like 2 block, and a chip waiting in the wings if he gets by. The thing is, we aren't a blitzing team. We rely on getting pressure with the front four. So, we've got RE Abraham NT Moorehead UT Babineaux LE Anderson to get pressure. Moorehead isn't doing much of anything. Babineaux is a good pocket pusher, but far from a bigtime pass rusher. Anderson up until the past few weeks has been terrible at getting pressure. So when you are rushing 4 guys and one of them is an elite threat with the others not doing another to scare you, the OL can spare a blocker for a double, and have a chip waiting in the wings. Now I'm not saying this happens every play, but it happens enough to the point where you take notice. Watching the tape, I noticed that for most of the 2nd and 3rd quarter (Abe barely played the 4th), the Raiders relied heavily on a pure double team on Abraham with a tackle and Zach Miller. John's going to thrive in one on one spots, because he can use his outstanding speed and quickness to blow by OT, or he can bring out his moves. Now I'm not calling Abraham the best DE (although this year I would), but he really is a beast.

I hear what you're saying. I am just saying that people toss those things out double and triple teams when in reality it's ALOT more complicated. It's all based on the protection called, and if the guard or center has a duel read or not. If someone is blitzing then who picks him up, the OL or the RB in the backfield. It gets very complicated, which is why there is such a different in production of DEs.

I agree JA is a beast, but his problem is he can't stay healthy. I live in NJ, and remember him from his Jets days. He is a sick player but his health is a big question mark.

If they did keep a TE in tow then I would guess and say they ran a 6 man protection at that point, and had their back check -release and chip on JA to help out. It's a good way of helping out, but then it hurts your offense because it's 1 less skill player who can make a play.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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3-4
1. Luis Castillo
2. Richard Seymour
3. Haloti Ngata
I'd put Aaron Smith Second over richard Seymour
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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iloxygenil makes good points, but because he's a Falcons fan, he's automatically a homer. Jeez...

John Abraham is having an absolutely outstanding year. No one can argue against that. The only 4-3 DE close to him sack-wise is Tuck, who is trailing by 1.5 sacks. Super Mario is trailing by 2 sacks.

Abraham is having a monster season, so who's to argue that he's not playing like the best DE in the NFL? He may not be the best for the long term, but that point is not strong enough to discredit Abe's performance in this current season and validate guys who may be deemed as more likely to keep up their production.

And yes, Mario Williams is over rated by many posters. He's in the conversation, but saying he's the undisputed #1 DE is a stretch.
He got 3 sacks of the Lions and the Raiders and 2 of the Chiefs. I saw him a couple of times one on one against St.Clair and couldnt beat him
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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I hear what you're saying. I am just saying that people toss those things out double and triple teams when in reality it's ALOT more complicated. It's all based on the protection called, and if the guard or center has a duel read or not. If someone is blitzing then who picks him up, the OL or the RB in the backfield. It gets very complicated, which is why there is such a different in production of DEs.

I agree JA is a beast, but his problem is he can't stay healthy. I live in NJ, and remember him from his Jets days. He is a sick player but his health is a big question mark.

If they did keep a TE in tow then I would guess and say they ran a 6 man protection at that point, and had their back check -release and chip on JA to help out. It's a good way of helping out, but then it hurts your offense because it's 1 less skill player who can make a play.

Believe me man, I got you on the whole blocking scheme. It's pretty interesting actually when you look back at the tape, and see how much goes in the OL and how different teams can make something that seems as simple as blocking.


I'm buying it because of 24 straight games started for Abraham, but if you remember a lot of his problems were groin and hammy injuries. The story has it, he was really pissed after getting what he wanted then getting hurt again in '06. In the offseason, he got a trainer to work specifically on core training to make sure he'd be able to hold up. He also added about 5-10 pounds onto his playing weight. And like I said, 24 straight now.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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He got 3 sacks of the Lions and the Raiders and 2 of the Chiefs. I saw him a couple of times one on one against St.Clair and couldnt beat him

Your point? He got a sack off Chad Clifton, and has a big sack/FF against the Bucs. He's provided a good amount of pressure every game. Let's not make it sound like he's sucked unless he plays bad teams. He has sacks in 5 of 8 games, and one of those games he went sackless, he blocked a punt.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:45 PM    (permalink
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Your point? He got a sack off Chad Clifton, and has a big sack/FF against the Bucs. He's provided a good amount of pressure every game. Let's not make it sound like he's sucked unless he plays bad teams. He has sacks in 5 of 8 games, and one of those games he went sackless, he blocked a punt.
i never said he sucked. But to say he is the best cause of the amounts of sacks? Thats where i say wait.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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Believe me man, I got you on the whole blocking scheme. It's pretty interesting actually when you look back at the tape, and see how much goes in the OL and how different teams can make something that seems as simple as blocking.


I'm buying it because of 24 straight games started for Abraham, but if you remember a lot of his problems were groin and hammy injuries. The story has it, he was really pissed after getting what he wanted then getting hurt again in '06. In the offseason, he got a trainer to work specifically on core training to make sure he'd be able to hold up. He also added about 5-10 pounds onto his playing weight. And like I said, 24 straight now.
Yeah conditioning and keeping your body in shape is huge. Sometimes the trainer's and the strength and conditioning guys are to blame, which is why at the college level it's competitive. You have to show your stuff to the coach and AD and basically sell it. But he has been producing very well and staying healthy. The reason why people under rate him is because of his past history of getting hurt.

To me out of everything, OL play and protections is the hardest thing to learn. So much is involved in learning what goes on. There is a reason why the offensive's playbook is so thick. Not because there are tons of plays, but because each play, passing or running has 2-4 pages of how to block it up depending on various fronts. So one running play can have 2-4 pages on it. You have to draw up how to block an 4-3 Even front, 4-3 Over, 4-3 Under, 4-3 Wide, 4-3 under wide, and so on.. Now do that for 3-4 defenses, and perhaps bear and Cub defensive fronts, which usually get added twice because you can use those formations out of a 4-3 defense or a 3-4 defense.

Learning the playbook for the OL is truly a pain in the butt. That's why you see such a different at all levels in terms of OL play. Yeah the talent is different from team to team, but the OL coach has to be good with his drills and rep the stuff that can mimic real game play. Also, has to be able to in game adjust, which is a VERY hard thing to do.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Yeah conditioning and keeping your body in shape is huge. Sometimes the trainer's and the strength and conditioning guys are to blame, which is why at the college level it's competitive. You have to show your stuff to the coach and AD and basically sell it. But he has been producing very well and staying healthy. The reason why people under rate him is because of his past history of getting hurt.
Stop with the apostrophes in plural words! You don't use apostrophes to pluralize nouns!
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Yeah conditioning and keeping your body in shape is huge. Sometimes the trainer's and the strength and conditioning guys are to blame, which is why at the college level it's competitive. You have to show your stuff to the coach and AD and basically sell it. But he has been producing very well and staying healthy. The reason why people under rate him is because of his past history of getting hurt.

To me out of everything, OL play and protections is the hardest thing to learn. So much is involved in learning what goes on. There is a reason why the offensive's playbook is so thick. Not because there are tons of plays, but because each play, passing or running has 2-4 pages of how to block it up depending on various fronts. So one running play can have 2-4 pages on it. You have to draw up how to block an 4-3 Even front, 4-3 Over, 4-3 Under, 4-3 Wide, 4-3 under wide, and so on.. Now do that for 3-4 defenses, and perhaps bear and Cub defensive fronts, which usually get added twice because you can use those formations out of a 4-3 defense or a 3-4 defense.

Learning the playbook for the OL is truly a pain in the butt. That's why you see such a different at all levels in terms of OL play. Yeah the talent is different from team to team, but the OL coach has to be good with his drills and rep the stuff that can mimic real game play. Also, has to be able to in game adjust, which is a VERY hard thing to do.

Definitely. I remember a big reason the Falcons loved Justin Blalock was because he had a Wonderlic of like 41. They actually wanted to trade up to get him, but got lucky enough for him to fall.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Stop with the apostrophes in plural words! You don't use apostrophes to pluralize nouns!
I know, I know. I type so fast that if i screw up I don't have the patience to re-read my stuff. I did that in school back in the day too. That's why I would give my 10 page papers to friends like yourself to read and correct. I sucked at it and didn't have the patience to do it. I hated the grammar part of English class. At that point it is nitpicking, as long as people get the general idea of the post that's what matters.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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I know, I know. I type so fast that if i screw up I don't have the patience to re-read my stuff. I did that in school back in the day too. That's why I would give my 10 page papers to friends like yourself to read and correct. I sucked at it and didn't have the patience to do it. I hated the grammar part of English class. At that point it is nitpicking, as long as people get the general idea of the post that's what matters.
Yes, I know. I'm just a grammar nazi.

For example, the title of this thread drives me up a ******* wall.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Why is this thread suddenly about the giants and falcons again?
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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Why is this thread suddenly about the giants and falcons again?
Because the falcons are that great?
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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Because every thread about who is the best at what position turns into either a homerfest between Giants and Cowboys, or Giants and Falcons.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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Because every thread about who is the best at what position turns into either a homerfest between Giants and Cowboys, or Giants and Falcons.
Well obviously the Falcons are beastly at any major Offensive position, top5 for QB, RB, LT and WR. Cowboys and Giants are just awesome everywhere
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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Because every thread about who is the best at what position turns into either a homerfest between Giants and Cowboys, or Giants and Falcons.
Because we are talking about elite to great players. That's pretty much every thread on here.. Top DEs, top OL, top this and that. So obviously we will be there. If people start horrible franchises or race for the # 1 pick, then you won't see the names of us, cowboys, falcons and so on.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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Why is this thread suddenly about the giants and falcons again?
Because some of the biggest Giants and Falcons homers reside here in the NFL Forum.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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Because we are talking about elite to great players. That's pretty much every thread on here.. Top DEs, top OL, top this and that. So obviously we will be there. If people start horrible franchises or race for the # 1 pick, then you won't see the names of us, cowboys, falcons and so on.
Fact is though, u hardly see Titans fans or other fans in these threads that much. It always ends up to one of the three.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:59 PM    (permalink
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Fact is though, u hardly see Titans fans or other fans in these threads that much. It always ends up to one of the three.
Well how many Titans fans are on here compared to the other teams? We have active members for the giants in BBD, Jug, and Number 10. I am on here too, but I mod our giants.com MB, so I am usually there.

I know personally I just defend our team vs people who usually don't know that much about our team and say things that aren't true. Otherwise I think those top 10 rankings and stuff are fluff threads. I would rather talk about the Xs and Os of football rather than stat throwing which is pretty much this section. It's news and stat throwing back and forth.

The Titans just got good, if they keep it up and are constant next year I don't care if they talk about their players. You win, and show consistency then I am all for fans talking up their players. Now if the Lions fans come on and talk about their players in the rankings threads then I would say something.
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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open an Os and Xs one. I really want to learn more about it :( its so hard to get any material here. I always enjoy the Playbook section on NFL.com :P
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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Why is this thread suddenly about the giants and falcons again?
Because Justin Tuck and John Abraham are 2 of the best DEs in the league this year. There actually is a reason for this thread.
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I don't have to watch it to know it was not interesting.
Giants, ASU Sun Devils, Yankees
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:07 PM    (permalink
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open an Os and Xs one. I really want to learn more about it :( its so hard to get any material here. I always enjoy the Playbook section on NFL.com :P
Actually I got to be mod of the scout.com giants section, and the head mod liked my breakdowns and so made me mod, and first thing I did was open another section.

Go to our giants forum on this site, and see my game breakdowns. I been doing that since last year. If it was up to me I would have another Xs and Os section where stat throwing is not allowed. No general talk, everything would be specific from coverage beaters, fronts, drills, protection, how to scout teams, do film breakdown, and so on and so forth. If Scott opened another section up, I'd live there all day, and get to post different playbooks from teams and so on and discuss it.
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