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Old 11-04-2008, 04:23 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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Plssss do it :D
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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Because every thread about who is the best at what position turns into either a homerfest between Giants and Cowboys, or Giants and Falcons.

I've been lurking here for about two weeks or so, and your the last person to be calling anyone a homer bud.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Because some of the biggest Giants and Falcons homers reside here in the NFL Forum.
Maybe because this thread is about DEs. It is a pretty widely accepted fact that the Giants have the best crop of DEs in the league. They led the league in sacks last year. And they are doing it again this year with their only pro bowler from last year hurt all season who was a DE, and with a HOF DE retiring.

Have Giant fans ever seriously entered a discussion about best secondary?
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:21 PM    (permalink
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And maybe because John Abraham leads all defensive ends in the NFL in sacks...hrmm...do you ever think? Doesn't appear so.
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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Maybe because this thread is about DEs. It is a pretty widely accepted fact that the Giants have the best crop of DEs in the league. They led the league in sacks last year. And they are doing it again this year with their only pro bowler from last year hurt all season who was a DE, and with a HOF DE retiring.

Have Giant fans ever seriously entered a discussion about best secondary?
Hey, i'm not pointing anyone out in particular. If the shoe fits, wear it ;)
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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And maybe because John Abraham leads all defensive ends in the NFL in sacks...hrmm...do you ever think? Doesn't appear so.
My only problem with Abraham is that he has done this before, only to get hurt and continue to not play the run at all. But you say he is playing the run now, I'll have to pay attention. Smith is the type of coach who could ride him all day on that aspect of his game. His injuries have also been questionable in this past. There is difference between being injured and playing hurt. Any little thing has kept Abraham out in the past, many have questioned his heart.
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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My only problem with Abraham is that he has done this before, only to get hurt and continue to not play the run at all. But you say he is playing the run now, I'll have to pay attention. Smith is the type of coach who could ride him all day on that aspect of his game. His injuries have also been questionable in this past. There is difference between being injured and playing hurt. Any little thing has kept Abraham out in the past, many have questioned his heart.
He is playing pretty possessed right now. I dont like to bring in sack numbers, but he has been getting consistent pressure and has blown up some running plays while not getting overpowered in the run game.

The fact that he has 10 sacks is nice, but he got 8 of them against DET, KC, and OAK. Whatever though. He brings tons of pressure and thats what matters.
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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I don't think Abraham enters the discussion as the best overall defensive end, not even close. You could argue he is one of the best pass rushers but possesses or not, he is not good against the run. Guys like Williams, Kampman, Vandenbosch...those guys put immense pressure on the QB like Abe but dominate the ground game to their side as well. Abe falls into the 5-7 range for me because of that.
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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I don't think Abraham enters the discussion as the best overall defensive end, not even close. You could argue he is one of the best pass rushers but possesses or not, he is not good against the run. Guys like Williams, Kampman, Vandenbosch...those guys put immense pressure on the QB like Abe but dominate the ground game to their side as well. Abe falls into the 5-7 range for me because of that.

Vanden Bosch isn't really close to Abraham as far as pass rushing goes.
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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You guys are all blind if you don't think that Abe plays the run, you listen to the media and cannot think for yourself. He's done a fantastic job in the run game, even drawing double teams in the run game. When you leave 1 man on Abe, he beats them and causes pressures, hurries, QB hits, and TFL. If you don't think that Abe is a complete DE then it's a waste of time trying to show you because you obviously haven't watched him play.
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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You guys are all blind if you don't think that Abe plays the run, you listen to the media and cannot think for yourself. He's done a fantastic job in the run game, even drawing double teams in the run game. When you leave 1 man on Abe, he beats them and causes pressures, hurries, QB hits, and TFL. If you don't think that Abe is a complete DE then it's a waste of time trying to show you because you obviously haven't watched him play.
I've seen plenty of Atlanta football since his tenure began there and my opinion on his game has nothing to do with the national media. If anything, the national media supports Abe the way you do.

He is not Dwight Freeney-esque against the run but compare how he plays it to Williams, Tuck, Kampman, Vandenbosch....it just isn't close.
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Old 11-05-2008, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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I think it's close. I think Williams will always be statisically better in his system than Tuck in ours. We fire zone, meaning we ask more of our DEs than they do of Williams. Tuck is playing LE, RE, and UT, and when we fire zone, Tuck is getting Curl to flat on those plays. So his versatility is what I would value more. But people who look at stats will always see Williams ahead.

When we firezone Tuck can't get a sack, not to mention, we rotate ALL our ends to keep them fresh, so he will be on the sideline alot as well too. We basically are going to use Kiwi, Tuck, Wynn, McDougal and Tollefson. When Osi comes back add him to the list of guys coming in and out. The fact we are talking about Tuck and Williams is a great thing. One is the first overall pick and the other is a 3rd rounder...

Personally I like Tuck better because of the value and versatility he brings. Not to mention he is getting these stats in a system where we have other guys rotating with him, and in a system where he has to cover in space as well when we firezone.
You do realize that Williams lines up at both DE spots, lines up with his hand off the ground and has lined up at tackle on several occasions as well.

Both players are bring a lot of versatility - not sure how one can be better than another based on that.

And Giants fans, I'm sure that Mario was the #1 pick should have anything to do with anything (or his contract). Just like the contributions of Eli Manning should not be compared to Phillip Rivers, Shawn Merriman and Nick Kaeding. Don't worry Tuck will get his money some day.
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Old 11-05-2008, 11:26 AM    (permalink
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You guys are all blind if you don't think that Abe plays the run, you listen to the media and cannot think for yourself. He's done a fantastic job in the run game, even drawing double teams in the run game. When you leave 1 man on Abe, he beats them and causes pressures, hurries, QB hits, and TFL. If you don't think that Abe is a complete DE then it's a waste of time trying to show you because you obviously haven't watched him play.
And there it is again....
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Old 11-05-2008, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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St Clair seemed to protect the QB okay 1vs1 evertime i saw them against Abe
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Old 11-05-2008, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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And there it is again....
LOL, that guy makes me chuckle.
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Old 11-05-2008, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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You do realize that Williams lines up at both DE spots, lines up with his hand off the ground and has lined up at tackle on several occasions as well.

Both players are bring a lot of versatility - not sure how one can be better than another based on that.

And Giants fans, I'm sure that Mario was the #1 pick should have anything to do with anything (or his contract). Just like the contributions of Eli Manning should not be compared to Phillip Rivers, Shawn Merriman and Nick Kaeding. Don't worry Tuck will get his money some day.
Well it's cost effective is what I am trying to say. That's my point. We have always bargain hunted when it comes to our players, especially DEs. Strahan, Osi, and Tuck are all 2nd and 3rd rounders. I know he will get his money some day, but we just recently extended Tuck before the superbowl so he is taken care. From a cost benefit perspective I like Tuck, because we are not shelling out # 1 overall pick money for a DE. That's not a knock on Mario, because he can't control it, but it's more of a positive for our scouts and our GM Jerry Reese in finding guys who can do the job throughout the draft.



Justin Tuck signs five-year extension
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...tension-2.html

01/19/08

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Tuck, technically a backup player but no less a playmaker, signed a five-year, $30 million extension that includes $16 million in guaranteed money yesterday morning,

Mario Williams
6 year $54 million, Williams is guaranteed $26.5 million.
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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And there it is again....
Your argument is so stimulating, I see your point, I love the facts that you bring to the table. Give me a break.
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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I don't know about Abraham, of his 10 sacks, 8 of them come from the Lions, Raiders and the Chiefs. Probably the three worst teams in the league.
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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Your argument is so stimulating, I see your point, I love the facts that you bring to the table. Give me a break.
what facts have u brought us?
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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what facts have u brought us?
Image google John Abraham.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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and the fact that we dont agree is dumb. So basically he is right. yay
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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St Clair seemed to protect the QB okay 1vs1 evertime i saw them against Abe

Then you obviously do not understand the concept of the word pressure. Just because a QB doesn't get sacked, doesn't mean the ends didn't apply pressure. They were quite a few Abe pressures that showed up on film.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Then you obviously do not understand the concept of the word pressure. Just because a QB doesn't get sacked, doesn't mean the ends didn't apply pressure. They were quite a few Abe pressures that showed up on film.
yes there were pressures. But everyone we played basically got pressure on us, especially if u think about its John ******* St.Clair. Well now even the Lions got pressure on St. Clair. But if u think about the "best" DE around, especially pass rusher, wouldnt u expect more? he didnt even have a sack against the Bears, and Kyle Orton kinda needs a lot of time sometimes
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang View Post
yes there were pressures. But everyone we played basically got pressure on us, especially if u think about its John ******* St.Clair. Well now even the Lions got pressure on St. Clair. But if u think about the "best" DE around, especially pass rusher, wouldnt u expect more? he didnt even have a sack against the Bears, and Kyle Orton kinda needs a lot of time sometimes


He's been the best DE this year. So far. I'm not calling him the best, and he isn't so far ahead of Mario and Tuck, but he is thus far. Just because he didn't get a sack in that game doesn't present a huge trouble to me, no. You look for consistent pressure on the QB, and have it coming to be more then enough. He's done that this season.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:48 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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well he is not the only one that gets consistent pressure and i dont feel like he is clear cut the best one
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