Draft Countdown Forums

Go Back   Draft Countdown Forums > Draft Countdown Forums > Pro Football

Pro Football Discuss professional football.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-06-2007, 02:26 PM    (permalink
NFLBOY
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 245
Reputation: 15
NFLBOY hopes to escalate quickly but not get out of hand.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by someone447
Bart Starr can't be the number one QB for the 60s. You are forgetting about Johnny Unitas.
Not really. Starr won alot of championships with his team. Like I said I wasn't around for the 60's so I can't comment on them. Starr was the first that came to my mind. Sure Unitas was great, but I can't put him on a list I really don't know much about before the 70's.
NFLBOY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 03:04 PM    (permalink
yourfavestoner
#1 Vickscuser
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: LakerLand
Posts: 13,130
Reputation: 628697
yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9
now that two people have said the same thing: what cornerbacks (comparable in *coverage* to those playing today) did unitas play against?
He might not have played against corners with the coverage ability of those playing today, but keep in mind that he played in an era where the advantage was very much in favor of the defense.

There was no five yard chuck rule. Defensive backs could mug receivers up and down the field until the ball was thrown.

Offensive lineman could not use their hands to block. They had to block with their forearms and look like ******** chickens, because if they got hands on the defenders at all it would be a holding penalty, and holding was 15 yards in those days.

To add to the offensive line's woes, defensive players could legally use the "headslap" and barrage the offensive lineman's head while they could not use their hands to defend themselves at all.

There were absolutely no rules protecting the quarterback. Nothing. He was just as live as any other player on the field, if not more, because, as Joe Namath once said, the quarterback was "the trophy" and every defensive player on the field was doing his best to take the quarterback out of the game. Quarterbacks back then played with a level of toughness and were brutalized on a level that would be shocking to see in today's game.
yourfavestoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 03:12 PM    (permalink
njx9
Suck it Rob
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,002
Reputation: 6046785
njx9 has disabled reputation
Default

so what makes unitas so much better than, say, jurgenson (who between 1961 and 1970, a better passer than unitas was at any point in his career)?
__________________
i can't rep people anymore because vbulletin sucks.
njx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 03:39 PM    (permalink
someone447
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Diego,CA
Posts: 4,791
Reputation: 35170
someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Johnny Unitas is widely considered the best qb of all time. I would definitely have Starr number 2, and I understand where you are coming from saying you can't put someone you haven't really seen play.

Troy Aikman SHOULD NOT have been a first ballot hall of famer. Don't get me wrong, I like Terry Bradshaw, I just don't think he was a great QB, and there are MANY others that will agree with me on that. He was very good, but not great.

Troy Aikman didn't do a whole lot. He had the all time leading rusher on his team, one of the best offensive lines in football history, a suffocating defense. Aikman was hardly more than along for the ride.

JIM PLUNKETT DIDN'T EVEN START FOR HALF OF HIS CAREER!! That one isn't even debatable.

And obviously YOU are the one who doesn't know how to read. I put THE QB of the 90's, meaning the top, the best, etc.

I go on not what they have done? Ok, here are my lists for each decade.


60's:Like you I haven't seen enough to make a top 5 list. But Johnny U has got to be number one. He was decades ahead of his time. I would like to say Starr is second, but I am not completely sure.

70s:
1. Roger Staubach: Great Scrambler and a pretty accurate passer
2. Fran Tarkenton: An all-around amazing QB, 4th all time in rush yards for a qb. Staubach gets the nod over Tarkenton because of Tarkentons abysmal play in the Super Bowls.
3. Terry Bradshaw: Yes he did win 4 super bowls, but he had perhaps the greatest team ever around him. The 70s Steelers had too many HOFers to count.
4. Bob Griese: for the reasons you mentioned.
5. Ken Stabler: for the reasons you mentioned.

80s
1. Montana: He was CLUTCH, if it was a big game, he was going to deliver. He executed the West Coast offense to perfection.
2. Dan Marino: As of now holds every major record, he had some very good receivers, but his most notable running back was Kareem Abdul-Jabar...
3. John Elway- He led the broncos to 3 super bowls in the 80s with no one else of any note. He made chardonnay out of **** with that team.
4. Dan Fouts: Led the "Air Coryell" offense that revolutionized the passing game. His Chargers were one of the most exciting teams in NFL history.
5. Boomer Esiason: He threw for a ton of yards and TDs in the 80s and led the BENGALS to a Super Bowl(granted, they were very good that year, but its still the BENGALS.)

90s
1: Favre: 3 time MVP, appeared in the Super Bowl twice, winning one. Did more with less than any QB in NFL history except for Elway.
2: Elway:Won 2 super bowls, including one over the heavily favored Packers. Was a phenomenal player, arguably the greatest QB of all time. I gave Favre the nod because of his 3 MVPs.
3. Steve Young: The most efficient passer in NFL history.
4. Dan Marino: He just kept throwing. Nothing else to say about him
5. Jim Kelly: The last QB to call all of his own plays. Unfortunately for him, he ran into the Cowboys a few too many times in those super bowls.

Overall, your list wasn't too bad, but Jim Plunkett should be no where near a top list. If you can't start more than half your career, you do not deserve to be on a top 5 list for a decade.

I just think you put too much stock into the players being on good teams. QBs dont win championships, teams do. More specifically, defenses win championships. Look at Marino, I don't take anything away from him for not winning a Super Bowl, he had no help. I think Elway taking his team to the Super Bowl in the 80s was more impressive than him winning those 2 late in his career.
__________________
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
Hunter S. Thompson
someone447 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 03:44 PM    (permalink
someone447
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Diego,CA
Posts: 4,791
Reputation: 35170
someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9
so what makes unitas so much better than, say, jurgenson (who between 1961 and 1970, a better passer than unitas was at any point in his career)?
They are more or less equal statwise during that time(jurgenson has the slight advantage). Unitas is the consummate leader. Every player from that Colts team said he was the heart and soul of the team. He is also one of the toughest SOBs to ever play the game.
__________________
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
Hunter S. Thompson
someone447 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 03:45 PM    (permalink
yourfavestoner
#1 Vickscuser
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: LakerLand
Posts: 13,130
Reputation: 628697
yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9
so what makes unitas so much better than, say, jurgenson (who between 1961 and 1970, a better passer than unitas was at any point in his career)?
Meh..Jurgenson was a great player in his own right, and is one of the most underrated players to ever play the game. Most people haven't even heard about him, yet there are some historians who consider him the best of that era.

The thing that sets Unitas apart, though, is how clutch he was. He basically gave pro football the two minute drill (1958 NFL Title Game, also called "The Greatest Game Ever Played"), and called his own plays. He was an All-NFL first or second teamer eight times, made the Pro Bowl ten times, was Player of the Year three times, and, like I said, holds a record that probably won't ever be broken (47 consecutive games with a touchdown pass).
yourfavestoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 03:52 PM    (permalink
NFLBOY
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 245
Reputation: 15
NFLBOY hopes to escalate quickly but not get out of hand.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by someone447
Johnny Unitas is widely considered the best qb of all time. I would definitely have Starr number 2, and I understand where you are coming from saying you can't put someone you haven't really seen play.

Troy Aikman SHOULD NOT have been a first ballot hall of famer. Don't get me wrong, I like Terry Bradshaw, I just don't think he was a great QB, and there are MANY others that will agree with me on that. He was very good, but not great.

Troy Aikman didn't do a whole lot. He had the all time leading rusher on his team, one of the best offensive lines in football history, a suffocating defense. Aikman was hardly more than along for the ride.

JIM PLUNKETT DIDN'T EVEN START FOR HALF OF HIS CAREER!! That one isn't even debatable.

And obviously YOU are the one who doesn't know how to read. I put THE QB of the 90's, meaning the top, the best, etc.

I go on not what they have done? Ok, here are my lists for each decade.


60's:Like you I haven't seen enough to make a top 5 list. But Johnny U has got to be number one. He was decades ahead of his time. I would like to say Starr is second, but I am not completely sure.

70s:
1. Roger Staubach: Great Scrambler and a pretty accurate passer
2. Fran Tarkenton: An all-around amazing QB, 4th all time in rush yards for a qb. Staubach gets the nod over Tarkenton because of Tarkentons abysmal play in the Super Bowls.
3. Terry Bradshaw: Yes he did win 4 super bowls, but he had perhaps the greatest team ever around him. The 70s Steelers had too many HOFers to count.
4. Bob Griese: for the reasons you mentioned.
5. Ken Stabler: for the reasons you mentioned.

80s
1. Montana: He was CLUTCH, if it was a big game, he was going to deliver. He executed the West Coast offense to perfection.
2. Dan Marino: As of now holds every major record, he had some very good receivers, but his most notable running back was Kareem Abdul-Jabar...
3. John Elway- He led the broncos to 3 super bowls in the 80s with no one else of any note. He made chardonnay out of *********** with that team.
4. Dan Fouts: Led the "Air Coryell" offense that revolutionized the passing game. His Chargers were one of the most exciting teams in NFL history.
5. Boomer Esiason: He threw for a ton of yards and TDs in the 80s and led the BENGALS to a Super Bowl(granted, they were very good that year, but its still the BENGALS.)

90s
1: Favre: 3 time MVP, appeared in the Super Bowl twice, winning one. Did more with less than any QB in NFL history except for Elway.
2: Elway:Won 2 super bowls, including one over the heavily favored Packers. Was a phenomenal player, arguably the greatest QB of all time. I gave Favre the nod because of his 3 MVPs.
3. Steve Young: The most efficient passer in NFL history.
4. Dan Marino: He just kept throwing. Nothing else to say about him
5. Jim Kelly: The last QB to call all of his own plays. Unfortunately for him, he ran into the Cowboys a few too many times in those super bowls.

Overall, your list wasn't too bad, but Jim Plunkett should be no where near a top list. If you can't start more than half your career, you do not deserve to be on a top 5 list for a decade.

I just think you put too much stock into the players being on good teams. QBs dont win championships, teams do. More specifically, defenses win championships. Look at Marino, I don't take anything away from him for not winning a Super Bowl, he had no help. I think Elway taking his team to the Super Bowl in the 80s was more impressive than him winning those 2 late in his career.
If you read my post I said they helped thier teams win, I didn't say they won. Also Plunkett had a hard time starting for teams in the 70's, not 80's. He started with the Raiders through 84 when he got injured and Marc Wilson took over. I'm not saying Plunkett is the greatest of all time. I just put the best quarterbacks in the decades they played. Like I said, it's just an opinion. Under Plunkett, the Raiders did win 2 superbowls and had a very impressive record. I would never say Bradshaw wasn't great. You don't go to the hall of fame unless your great. I to don't think Aikman was a first time ballot HOF guy. Then again I don't get to vote either.
NFLBOY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 04:24 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
Team Leader
Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Jersey
Posts: 28,915
Reputation: 3938479
bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9
so what makes unitas so much better than, say, jurgenson (who between 1961 and 1970, a better passer than unitas was at any point in his career)?
Unitas changed the game. The same way Taylor made the Left Tackle a glory position, Unitas's ability in the late 50s to throw the way he did made the DE position mean something.

Prior to that, it was all about your DTs. DE was important, but it wasn't the glory position that it would later become. Unitas made it a glory position. With his ability to throw the ball the way he did, he made the DE an important piece to the defense. It became important to rush the passer from the edge of all of a sudden. Prior to that, as long as you had a good MIKE and DT duo you were good. Not anymore. You also saw the evolution of the CB and Safety happen after Unitas made it acceptable to throw on 1st down. He was the spark that made the CB, S, and DE position become a more important position than it once was.

Without Unitas, there wouldn't be a Jurgeson. Unitas was the guy who made it acceptable to throw once in awhile on 1st down, and he was the the first guy who would throw near the goalline. Before that was blasphemy, Unitas showed the world it was possible.

He also suffered through alot of injuries during his career, which hurt his overall numbers. You gotta take the #s with a grain of salt.
__________________
bigbluedefense is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 04:28 PM    (permalink
Boston
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: "That's some catch, that Catch-22."
Posts: 7,121
Reputation: 33603
Boston is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Boston is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Boston is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Boston is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Boston is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Boston is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Boston is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Boston is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Boston is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Boston is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Boston is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severe Punishment
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitschke-Hawk
Quote:
Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble
Favre isn't getting a ton of love on here. Just an observation.
Nobody views him as top 5 except packer fans. For the most part anyways.
I think it's because he won those MVP's and the Super Bowl a long time ago. People are thinking of Favre these last few years where he hasn't had a team around him that was as good as his best years and letting that diminish his legacy a little bit. All the other players in people's top 5's are retired for the most part so that makes them look at the career as a whole. For example, when people put Dan Marino in the top 5 they never thought of his final year. I guarantee if Favre just retired he'd be in more top 5's. I'm not saying the last few years have tarnished his legacy cause when you look at it in whole it's as impressive as anybody's, it's just that people don't see the "greatness" they saw years ago. I think in the end more people will realize that than they do right now, because in the back of their mind there's retirement talk every year, team isn't successful as in years past, and some people get tired of hearing about him. I'm not saying they're taking this into account intentionally when ranking him, just indirectly and unintentionally.
here's what I get out of this..."Packer fans (and Favre) are living in the past"
Probably a reason they want to trade for Moss
Go away. You probably weren't even born than.

People put way too much stock in Favre's interceptions, or turnovers.

Quote:
Favre: 414 TD passes, and 273 interceptions/ 1.51 TD's every INT
Elway: 300 TD passes, and 226 interceptions/ 1.327 TD's every INT
Montana: 273 TD passes, and 139 interceptions/ 1.96 TD's every INT
Aikman: 165 TD passes, and 141 interceptions/ 1.17 TD's every INT
Marino: 420 TD passes, and 252 interceptions/ 1.6667 TD's every INT
Young: 232 TD passes, and 107 interceptions/ 2.168 TD's every INT
Manning: 275 TD passes, and 139 interceptions/ 1.978 TD's every INT
Brady: 147 TD passes, and 78 interceptions/ 1.88 TD's every INT
__________________

Hitman D

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." - Henry David Thoreau
Boston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 04:35 PM    (permalink
someone447
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Diego,CA
Posts: 4,791
Reputation: 35170
someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

If you don't see Aikman as a first ballot hall of famer how do you put him above people who without a doubt deserve, or deserved to be first ballot hall of famers: marino, elway, favre.

Plunkett played 4 years in the 80s, hardly enough to put him anywhere near the top.
__________________
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
Hunter S. Thompson
someone447 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 04:35 PM    (permalink
njx9
Suck it Rob
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,002
Reputation: 6046785
njx9 has disabled reputation
Default

but how much of all of that was really unitas, and how much was john mackey, one of the first (and probably the best) tight end who played a more modern role? isn't this the same argument made against peyton manning (that his weapons make him look far better)?

what about raymond berry, who had, arguably, just as big a role in the colts 2 minute drive as unitas?

maybe lenny moore?

it can't've hurt that he had a hall of famer at LT.

i mean, unitas had an overwhelming amount of hall of fame talent on the field with him. maybe they all made him look better than he really was?
__________________
i can't rep people anymore because vbulletin sucks.
njx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 04:44 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
Team Leader
Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Jersey
Posts: 28,915
Reputation: 3938479
bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9
but how much of all of that was really unitas, and how much was john mackey, one of the first (and probably the best) tight end who played a more modern role? isn't this the same argument made against peyton manning (that his weapons make him look far better)?

what about raymond berry, who had, arguably, just as big a role in the colts 2 minute drive as unitas?

maybe lenny moore?

it can't've hurt that he had a hall of famer at LT.

i mean, unitas had an overwhelming amount of hall of fame talent on the field with him. maybe they all made him look better than he really was?
Thats an interesting way to look at it, something I overlooked. The relationship is something only the players and coaches can comment on. How much of it was Unitas vs his skill position guys. Perhaps the recognition of these skill position players does not happen if they didn't have a Unitas throwing them the ball? Without him, no matter how good they are, theyre just a bunch of route runners.

Im leaning towards Unitas. Watching old games of his play, you can just see the talent. His ability and moxy, presence and throwing ability, it was just different compared to everyone else back then. He just had that it factor.

BF51 probably knows more than I do on this. Im curious to hear his take on all of this.
__________________
bigbluedefense is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 04:45 PM    (permalink
TitleTown088
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Shoryuken
Posts: 13,733
Reputation: 406607
TitleTown088 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitleTown088 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitleTown088 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitleTown088 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitleTown088 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitleTown088 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitleTown088 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitleTown088 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitleTown088 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitleTown088 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.TitleTown088 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

I have never seen this thread before. How creative...
__________________

What do the vikings and marijuana have in common? Every time you put them in a bowl
they get smoked.

2010-2011 Super Bowl Champions
Hint:Not the Bears.
TitleTown088 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 07:08 PM    (permalink
NFLBOY
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 245
Reputation: 15
NFLBOY hopes to escalate quickly but not get out of hand.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by someone447
If you don't see Aikman as a first ballot hall of famer how do you put him above people who without a doubt deserve, or deserved to be first ballot hall of famers: marino, elway, favre.

Plunkett played 4 years in the 80s, hardly enough to put him anywhere near the top.
Pay attention to how I listed them. I did it in decades. The reason is because of the way the game changed. Marino was put in there twice because of what he was able to do. The reason why I wouldn't put Aikman as a first time ballot, is because I thought that there were other guys up for the HOF that deserved to be in there before him. Same with Elway and Favre. Just because it is Farve, doesn't mean I would put him in the top 10 of all time or make him the greatest. Plunkett was put in there because of what he did in that span.
NFLBOY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 07:42 PM    (permalink
njx9
Suck it Rob
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,002
Reputation: 6046785
njx9 has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9
but how much of all of that was really unitas, and how much was john mackey, one of the first (and probably the best) tight end who played a more modern role? isn't this the same argument made against peyton manning (that his weapons make him look far better)?

what about raymond berry, who had, arguably, just as big a role in the colts 2 minute drive as unitas?

maybe lenny moore?

it can't've hurt that he had a hall of famer at LT.

i mean, unitas had an overwhelming amount of hall of fame talent on the field with him. maybe they all made him look better than he really was?
Thats an interesting way to look at it, something I overlooked. The relationship is something only the players and coaches can comment on. How much of it was Unitas vs his skill position guys. Perhaps the recognition of these skill position players does not happen if they didn't have a Unitas throwing them the ball? Without him, no matter how good they are, theyre just a bunch of route runners.

Im leaning towards Unitas. Watching old games of his play, you can just see the talent. His ability and moxy, presence and throwing ability, it was just different compared to everyone else back then. He just had that it factor.

BF51 probably knows more than I do on this. Im curious to hear his take on all of this.
seconded. although i'm not surprised he's avoided this thread.

clearly i agree on unitas and think he was a great qb, but you and YFS gave me a chance to ask someone articulate to say why, so i took advantage and played a little devil's advocate.

i DO think the presence of a game changing TE like mackey and the amazing offensive talent surrounding unitas helped him. the presence of jim parker alone had to make a huge difference.

i also find it odd how often jurgensen is overlooked in these (i'd forgotten his name for the most part).
__________________
i can't rep people anymore because vbulletin sucks.
njx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 07:45 PM    (permalink
SimonRath
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lawrenceville, GA
Posts: 2,452
Reputation: 39023
SimonRath is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SimonRath is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SimonRath is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SimonRath is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SimonRath is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SimonRath is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SimonRath is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SimonRath is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SimonRath is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SimonRath is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.SimonRath is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

1. Brett Favre
2. Dan Marrino
3. Joe Montana
4. Steve Young
5. Peyton Manning
SimonRath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 09:21 PM    (permalink
 
Posts: n/a
Reputation:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by someone447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maybe Next Year Millen
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone447
Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone447
Wow, Favre is my all time favorite player, and I wouldn't say he is the best QB ever. I'll do my pre-WC offense, and my post-WC offense(I chose that time period because the West Coast offense completely changed offenses completely, making the statistics impossible to compare. Not to mention, the rules were changed to open up the passing game in 1978.)
i figured someone would be surprised. i recall seeing favre sprinting straight to the right (around '94-'95) and firing the ball across his body 60 yards downfield on a rope for a completion. elway was the only other quarterback i think had a vague chance of making the same throw. and that's just on thing that popped into mind.
:-D, that was against the Lions in the first round of the playoffs. Elway definitely could make a throw like that. I think his arm may have even been stronger than Favre's ever was.
It was a 40 yard td pass and somehow Sterling Sharpe was wide open in the end zone. How do you let Sterling Sharpe wide open in the endzone. That td just baffles me. It was a great game though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_pla...troit_Lions_24
He still threw it 60 yards on a rope. He rolled out and launched it to the back of the endzone.

No one is saying that he is as good of a QB as he was in 96. But he is still an above average starting QB in the NFL.
Here is the video of the throw. Still very impressive, probably 50 yards but across his body.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjdfSx2MojM
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 09:32 PM    (permalink
cunningham06
Team Leader
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UT
Posts: 4,558
Reputation: 106982
cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone447
Quote:
Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87
Favorite 5

1. Steve Young
2. Joe Montana
3. John Elway
4. Doug Flutie
5. Rich Gannon

Top 5

1. Joe Montana
2. John Elway
3. Johnny Unitas

The rest is too jumbled...marino, tarkenton, young, bradshaw, etc. Not counting current guys like brady, manning, and favre.
Bradshaw shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with those guys.
Well, he won 4 Super Bowls.
Yes, and playing with one of the most talented defensive units ever assembled has nothing to do with those wins? Big deal he was in a good situation during his career, doesn't mean he was the best.
__________________
cunningham06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 09:40 PM    (permalink
cunningham06
Team Leader
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UT
Posts: 4,558
Reputation: 106982
cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Severe Punishment
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitschke-Hawk
Quote:
Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble
Favre isn't getting a ton of love on here. Just an observation.
Nobody views him as top 5 except packer fans. For the most part anyways.
I think it's because he won those MVP's and the Super Bowl a long time ago. People are thinking of Favre these last few years where he hasn't had a team around him that was as good as his best years and letting that diminish his legacy a little bit. All the other players in people's top 5's are retired for the most part so that makes them look at the career as a whole. For example, when people put Dan Marino in the top 5 they never thought of his final year. I guarantee if Favre just retired he'd be in more top 5's. I'm not saying the last few years have tarnished his legacy cause when you look at it in whole it's as impressive as anybody's, it's just that people don't see the "greatness" they saw years ago. I think in the end more people will realize that than they do right now, because in the back of their mind there's retirement talk every year, team isn't successful as in years past, and some people get tired of hearing about him. I'm not saying they're taking this into account intentionally when ranking him, just indirectly and unintentionally.
here's what I get out of this..."Packer fans (and Favre) are living in the past"
Probably a reason they want to trade for Moss
Go away. You probably weren't even born than.

People put way too much stock in Favre's interceptions, or turnovers.

Quote:
Favre: 414 TD passes, and 273 interceptions/ 1.51 TD's every INT
Elway: 300 TD passes, and 226 interceptions/ 1.327 TD's every INT
Montana: 273 TD passes, and 139 interceptions/ 1.96 TD's every INT
Aikman: 165 TD passes, and 141 interceptions/ 1.17 TD's every INT
Marino: 420 TD passes, and 252 interceptions/ 1.6667 TD's every INT
Young: 232 TD passes, and 107 interceptions/ 2.168 TD's every INT
Manning: 275 TD passes, and 139 interceptions/ 1.978 TD's every INT
Brady: 147 TD passes, and 78 interceptions/ 1.88 TD's every INT
Favre is definitely top 5. Not only was he among the greatest of all time when he was at his peak, he has sustained an above average level of play longer than anyone else.
__________________
cunningham06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 10:10 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
All-Pro
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,764
Reputation: 9588
Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cunningham06
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone447
Quote:
Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87
Favorite 5

1. Steve Young
2. Joe Montana
3. John Elway
4. Doug Flutie
5. Rich Gannon

Top 5

1. Joe Montana
2. John Elway
3. Johnny Unitas

The rest is too jumbled...marino, tarkenton, young, bradshaw, etc. Not counting current guys like brady, manning, and favre.
Bradshaw shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with those guys.
Well, he won 4 Super Bowls.
Yes, and playing with one of the most talented defensive units ever assembled has nothing to do with those wins? Big deal he was in a good situation during his career, doesn't mean he was the best.
He still had to play QB all those games and win.


Elway had a pretty stout defense.. Romanowski, Neil Smith, Atwater, Traylor and Trevor Pryce... Were some of my favorite guys growing up.

Elway also had, Shannon Sharpe, Terell Davis, Tom Nalen, Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey. Pretty solid Lineup there.

Not to mention Reliable kickers in Rouen and Elam.


Farve Had arguably the greatest DE of all time.. And Santana Dotson was no slouch either, dude was massive and a monster player.

He also had Mark Chmura, Antonio Freeman, Desmond Howard(Who won the SB) and Dorsey Levens Although not HOF'ers .. no slouches.

If anyone wants to make the "Has no talent around them" SB comment, should be Marino... Mark Clayton and Mark Duper... both had 1300+ Yards recieving...

Elway also took his Broncos earlier to the SB.. but His stats were about as Bad as Roethlisbergers were.

Elway in 1990 threw 10 for 26 for 108 yards and 2 INTs.
Elway in 1988 threw 14 for 38 for 257 yards, 1 Td and 3 INTs.


It wasn't like he did amazing in the superbowl all the time. I still respect him and think he was a great QB, but there's more to it...

SuperBowl X:
Bradshaw: 9 for 19, 209 yards 2 TD's Better than Elways....

SuperBowl XIII:
Bradshaw: 17 for 30, 318 yards, 4 Td's, 1 Int.. again...

Superbowl XIV:
Bradshaw: 14 for 21, 309 yards, 2Td's, 3 INT's... again better than Elways.. in a time before the rules that opened up the pass Game.

I think you guys severely underrated Bradshaw and Pittsburgh Qb's in General because our Normal Preference to run first.
__________________

Yeah, I play WoW too.[/center]
Mr. Stiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 10:24 PM    (permalink
someone447
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Diego,CA
Posts: 4,791
Reputation: 35170
someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.someone447 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

All those guys you named for Elway came in the late 90s. Who were his receivers in the 80s when he went? Who were his running backs? He had a GREAT team when he won those 2. There is no debating that. Just like Favre had a great team in '96. Neither of them ever played with a future Hall of Famer on offense(TD would have been had he not gotten injured.) Bradshaw had 4 on offense and 4 on defense. Favre has played with 1 future hall of famer his entire career, Reggie White. Elway had Tony Dorsett for one injury shortened season. 8>1>1/2 Tell me how exactly those teams stack up.

How does Dorsey Levens stack up with Franco Harris? How does Antonio Freeman stack up against Lynn Swann or John Stallworth? How does either defense stack up against the Steel Curtain?

NFLBOY, Look at John Elway during the 90s and tell me he doesn't deserve to be on that list. Hell him and Favre were the 2 QBs on the NFL all 90s team. Elway and Favre are without a doubt first ballot hall of famers, and they each should be. Aikman, not so much.

Plunkett I think is just ridiculous, and I am sure just about everyone else would agree.
__________________
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
Hunter S. Thompson
someone447 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 11:00 PM    (permalink
cunningham06
Team Leader
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UT
Posts: 4,558
Reputation: 106982
cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cunningham06 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
Quote:
Originally Posted by cunningham06
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone447
Quote:
Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87
Favorite 5

1. Steve Young
2. Joe Montana
3. John Elway
4. Doug Flutie
5. Rich Gannon

Top 5

1. Joe Montana
2. John Elway
3. Johnny Unitas

The rest is too jumbled...marino, tarkenton, young, bradshaw, etc. Not counting current guys like brady, manning, and favre.
Bradshaw shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with those guys.
Well, he won 4 Super Bowls.
Yes, and playing with one of the most talented defensive units ever assembled has nothing to do with those wins? Big deal he was in a good situation during his career, doesn't mean he was the best.
He still had to play QB all those games and win.

Again, that's weak because the defense was amazing, the run game was excellent, and having 2 HOF WR's doesn't hurt either. Their offensive line was also quite good. The 70's Steelers IMO were the greatest dynasty because of their insane talent level. Bradshaw didn't have to win games, he just had to not lose them. He was excellent in the superbowls, but he was not close to that level in his regular seasons. If he played at that level in the regular season I would put him in the top 5, but as things are, he doesn't belong there.

Elway had a pretty stout defense.. Romanowski, Neil Smith, Atwater, Traylor and Trevor Pryce... Were some of my favorite guys growing up.

Stout and having HOF'ers at every level of the defense are two different things. Yes the Broncos defense was good, but you can't honestly say that it was as good as the 70's Steelers defense was. Anyway I'm not a big Elway fan and don't believe that he is a top 5 qb either.

Elway also had, Shannon Sharpe, Terell Davis, Tom Nalen, Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey. Pretty solid Lineup there.

Again I don't think Elway is a top 5 qb, so this is irrelevant.

Not to mention Reliable kickers in Rouen and Elam.


Farve Had arguably the greatest DE of all time.. And Santana Dotson was no slouch either, dude was massive and a monster player.

Bradshaw had arguably the best DT of all time. Greenwood was a beast, as was the whole defensive line, I would take the 70's Steelers D Line over the Packers. The Packers linebackers pale in comparison to the Steelers Linebackers. Jack Lambert and Jack Ham is insane.

He also had Mark Chmura, Antonio Freeman, Desmond Howard(Who won the SB) and Dorsey Levens Although not HOF'ers .. no slouches.

Find a team that won a superbowl that is made up of slouches. All teams that win superbowls have talent besides at the qb position, in the case of the Steelers they were amazing at just about all aspects of the game. That team was destined to win championships, no matter who was the qb.

If anyone wants to make the "Has no talent around them" SB comment, should be Marino... Mark Clayton and Mark Duper... both had 1300+ Yards recieving...

Yes, but both left midway through Marino's career. Marino also had no run game to speak of during his career to back him up. It's pretty easy to defend against an offense if you know they are going to pass, yet Marino still won games and put up amazing numbers.

Elway also took his Broncos earlier to the SB.. but His stats were about as Bad as Roethlisbergers were.

Elway in 1990 threw 10 for 26 for 108 yards and 2 INTs.
Elway in 1988 threw 14 for 38 for 257 yards, 1 Td and 3 INTs.

Again I don't care about Elway.


It wasn't like he did amazing in the superbowl all the time. I still respect him and think he was a great QB, but there's more to it...

SuperBowl X:
Bradshaw: 9 for 19, 209 yards 2 TD's Better than Elways....

Still don't give a #### about Elway...

SuperBowl XIII:
Bradshaw: 17 for 30, 318 yards, 4 Td's, 1 Int.. again...

Great game, doesn't make him worthy of top 5.

Superbowl XIV:
Bradshaw: 14 for 21, 309 yards, 2Td's, 3 INT's... again better than Elways.. in a time before the rules that opened up the pass Game.

Pretty average outing there.

I think you guys severely underrated Bradshaw and Pittsburgh Qb's in General because our Normal Preference to run first.
I don't underrate Bradshaw, you just overrate him. Pittsburgh was a run first defensive minded team. Bradshaw was not a bigger factor than the run game and defense in winning games, so I don't give him all the credit for the SB wins. Bradshaw was in a position of little responsibility in respect to other great qb's.
__________________
cunningham06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 11:09 PM    (permalink
jblaze66
Rookie
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 287
Reputation: 144
jblaze66 hopes to escalate quickly but not get out of hand.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severe Punishment
I'd be willing to bet $100 bucks that the % of people (in this room who voted him as a top 5 QB of all time) who actually watched Johnny Unitas play a game (in it's entirety , while the game was being played) is under 5%.

Why not just include Jesus and Moses in the top 5 as well
Why do we have to see him play to figure if he is one of the best? The numbers he put up in that era are kinda unreal. I would compare it to Babe Ruth's dominance of baseball.
__________________

Sig by Kramer
jblaze66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2007, 11:48 PM    (permalink
njx9
Suck it Rob
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,002
Reputation: 6046785
njx9 has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
Elway had a pretty stout defense.. Romanowski, Neil Smith, Atwater, Traylor and Trevor Pryce... Were some of my favorite guys growing up.

Elway also had, Shannon Sharpe, Terell Davis, Tom Nalen, Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey. Pretty solid Lineup there.

Not to mention Reliable kickers in Rouen and Elam.
pretty solid?! how many hall of famers did john play with? how many did bradshaw play with? stupid argument.

i won't even get into the vast distortion of elway's stats and career after that as it's utterly ridiculous.
__________________
i can't rep people anymore because vbulletin sucks.
njx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2007, 01:03 AM    (permalink
thetedginnshow
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 12,187
Reputation: 214818
thetedginnshow is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.thetedginnshow is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.thetedginnshow is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.thetedginnshow is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.thetedginnshow is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.thetedginnshow is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.thetedginnshow is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.thetedginnshow is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.thetedginnshow is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.thetedginnshow is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.thetedginnshow is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Elway was definitely better, but the number of HOFers they had on their team shouldn't be an indication, especially with all the snubs and terribly underrated players there are out there. But, you can compare them to the teams of the time, in which case the Steelers were vastly superior to their opposition opposed to Elway's teams (granted, they were exceptional as well).

But in all actuality, the only "great" QB to never be surrounded by a great supporting cast is probably Peyton, and possibly Marino. That I can think of anyway.
__________________
Ohio State Buckeyes Duke Blue Devils New York Jets St. Louis Cardinals San Jose Sharks Seattle Sonics
thetedginnshow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.