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View Poll Results: are they?
Yes 41 39.81%
No 62 60.19%
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
forget actual analysis, stats = everything.
I know that they dont, but I think they say enough in this case. Stewart vs Taylor...Taylor is more experienced, but he hasnt produced as Stewart has this season. Adrian Peterson is easily the best RB in the league, but since this is best dou, with Stewart being more productive, I give the nod to Carolina.
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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I heard DeAngelo and Stewart stole the dance they do from the titans too!!!
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ShutDwn
I heard DeAngelo and Stewart stole the dance they do from the titans too!!!
They did?! Those bastards...
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:10 PM    (permalink
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I heard DeAngelo and Stewart stole the dance they do from the titans too!!!
That's just dumb of them. I mean sure, take the name LenDale White came up with - they can back it up on the football field if need be - but you're just asking to be served if you start stealing L-Dub's dance moves.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
gosh, and some part of me wonders if that has anything to do with stewart having almost twice as many carries behind a less talented back... hmm.

common sense tends to go a long way in preventing this kind of argument.
I think the real problem is a cross over in topics. Some people seem to be talking about fantasy (in the traditional sense, not NFL sense) duos asking 'who would be the best duo given the opportunity to split carries?', where as other people seem to be talking about actual duos on teams who run a 2-back system based on carry sharing and not a primary-backup system based on giving the primary back a breather every so often. My impression was this thread was about the latter.

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Old 12-11-2008, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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That's just dumb of them. I mean sure, take the name LenDale White came up with - they can back it up on the football field if need be - but you're just asking to be served if you start stealing L-Dub's dance moves.
It seems that the whole nickname controversy has been put to rest.

Quote:
THERE WAS ONE MORE MATTER ... of discussion in the locker room Wednesday regarding Williams the search for a firm, permanent nickname for him and Jonathan Stewart.

"Smash and Dash" has circulated throughout local circles; Williams said in the locker room after the Nov. 16 win over the Detroit Lions that he heard that moniker from fans, and felt it would stick. But with the Tennessee Titans' ground duo of LenDale White and Chris Johnson also answering to "Smash and Dash," some, like wide receiver Steve Smith, thought that there should be something original for the Panthers' runners.

His suggestion?

"It's 'Razzle and Dazzle,'" Smith said. "DeAngelo's 'Razzle' and Jonathan is 'Dazzle.'"

"It's not 'Smash and Dash,'" he continued. "The offensive linemen did a poll. The receivers, quarterbacks, training room, staff and it's 'Razzle and Dazzle.'"
http://www.panthers.com/Common/Article.aspx?id=42170


Personally, I think "Smash 'n Dash" will stick like "Thunder 'n Lightning" did after LenDale/Bush at USC, and will be used to reference other RB's besides these two tandems. What shall the next great nickname be? My money's on "Shake 'n Bake!"
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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Someone over at a Titans messageboard had a good suggestion for CJ and White - Dash & Dine.

Razze and Dazzle probably make more sense anyway. Williams and Stewart aren't polar opposites like White and Johnson, which Smash and Dash would suggest.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:02 AM    (permalink
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Stewart is a little brick though. He's what? 5'10, 230? In comparison, LenDale is 6'1, 245 - I think he's that small. He's looked skinnier as of late. Stewart is all muscle too. Stewart is shorter and lighter than White, but he still has great power due to his compact, muscular body.

DeAngelo Williams is 5'9, 190, so JStew is much thicker in comparison. JStew still has good speed, which makes his power appear poorer. Though, LenDale's speed is very under-rated, in my opinion. When he chooses to, he can hit the hole with great velocity. But, he tends to be too patient and dances through the hole. If he continues to make his cut and go full speed ahead, he'll steal more carries away from CJ.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:44 AM    (permalink
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Someone over at a Titans messageboard had a good suggestion for CJ and White - Dash & Dine.

Razze and Dazzle probably make more sense anyway. Williams and Stewart aren't polar opposites like White and Johnson, which Smash and Dash would suggest.
No, it's the other way round, what poor students do: Dine & Dash
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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gosh, and some part of me wonders if that has anything to do with stewart having almost twice as many carries behind a less talented back... hmm.

common sense tends to go a long way in preventing this kind of argument.
I think everyone acknowledged a long time ago that Minnesota has the best featured back in the NFL by a long margin, and yes I agree that stats rarely tell the full story, in this case:

Williams and Stewart have more yards, more yards per carry, less turnovers and more touchdowns.

The Rushing offense is ranked 4th in the NFL compared to 6th

There is a case to be made.

I look at it like this:

Adrian Peterson is a 9.5 out of 10 back (fumbles and some receiving game issues prevent the full 10)

Chester Taylor is barely a 5.5 out of 10 back

DeAngelo is an 8 out of 10
Stewart is a 7.5 out of ten

As a tandem Deangelo and Stewart are the better Pair, but as singular players Peterson is far and away a better runner.

That being said, I still think Tennessee gets the nod as the best tandem and NYG are far and away the best ground unit in the NFL.
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Old 12-12-2008, 07:50 PM    (permalink
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based on what? last season when peterson was hurt, taylor played very well in his relief. this year, while peterson's been healthy, taylor hasn't gotten a chance. i don't buy that him not seeing the field is any basis for argument, given that he's behind the best running back in the nfl right now. he's shown he has the ability to be a roughly 1200 yard back (might as well extrapolate some stats from last season and the season before) by himself. i don't buy that stewart has shown that, and really, outside of the last 6 games, williams hadn't shown anything close to that.
Chester Taylor his last season in baltimore and first season in minny was at least as impressive as DeAngelo Williams is looking right now. Since he can't steal many carries from the best back in the league people have forgotten how good this guy was when he has been asked to carry the load for a team.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:37 PM    (permalink
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Jacobs, Ward and Bradshaw are the best RB trio.

Williams and Stewart are the best RB duo.

Peterson is the best RB... uhhm, solo.


You want to know a weird rotation of backs? Baltimore. They rank 4th in the league in rushing with Le'Ron McClain, Willis McGahee and Ray Rice. Who would have thought that a team could rank #4 in rushing with Le'Ron McClain leading in yards and carries?
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:51 PM    (permalink
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based on what? last season when peterson was hurt, taylor played very well in his relief. this year, while peterson's been healthy, taylor hasn't gotten a chance. i don't buy that him not seeing the field is any basis for argument, given that he's behind the best running back in the nfl right now. he's shown he has the ability to be a roughly 1200 yard back (might as well extrapolate some stats from last season and the season before) by himself. i don't buy that stewart has shown that, and really, outside of the last 6 games, williams hadn't shown anything close to that.
If Chester Taylor is so good he'd be getting more carries and more time in the game. There's no reason to play AP as much as they have with his injury history if Taylor is a starting calibre running back. He's on pace for 350 carries this year, which is quite an amount for a second year player.

Taylor on the other hand is on pace for 102 and had his best season before the Vikings decided to draft a replacement for him. Right now he's healthy and under used in their offense and he is supposedly a complete back.

I'm not necessarily saying Taylor is pathetic or a bad back, I think he's pretty much average, which is the score I gave him. He's an average back. I think if he were as good as people are trying to argue he'd be getting more reps in the offense.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:16 PM    (permalink
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If Chester Taylor is so good he'd be getting more carries and more time in the game. There's no reason to play AP as much as they have with his injury history if Taylor is a starting calibre running back. He's on pace for 350 carries this year, which is quite an amount for a second year player.

Taylor on the other hand is on pace for 102 and had his best season before the Vikings decided to draft a replacement for him. Right now he's healthy and under used in their offense and he is supposedly a complete back.

I'm not necessarily saying Taylor is pathetic or a bad back, I think he's pretty much average, which is the score I gave him. He's an average back. I think if he were as good as people are trying to argue he'd be getting more reps in the offense.
When AP's clearly their best player and they don't have a quarterback yes AP does have to get that many carries. You're expecting Brad Childress to have some intelligence and rest his offense sometimes, but he's desperate not to get fired and he can't create any sort of passing game to take men out of the box when AP does get a rest. So he's just riding AP hard this year and ignoring Chester Taylor because he's not AP, that said he's a big part of their limited passing game and actually has nearly as many total yards as Jonathon Stewart and is a good pass blocker.
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Old 12-13-2008, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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Call me a Homer but I agree that Smash-N-Dash are the best duo. (Williams and Stewart)
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Old 12-13-2008, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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Id say the Titans duo that Ive heard affectionately referred to as "Lard & 'Tard".
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Old 12-13-2008, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken View Post
Jacobs, Ward and Bradshaw are the best RB trio.

Williams and Stewart are the best RB duo.

Peterson is the best RB... uhhm, solo.


You want to know a weird rotation of backs? Baltimore. They rank 4th in the league in rushing with Le'Ron McClain, Willis McGahee and Ray Rice. Who would have thought that a team could rank #4 in rushing with Le'Ron McClain leading in yards and carries?
yessir
its pretty crazy.. mcClain is a TANK... great power.. a real workhorse. McGahee has really disappointed this season, but has flashes in a couple of games. and i really like rookie ray rice out of Rutgers of the ravens... if we can keep mcgahee fresh, i think he can find his groove late in the season
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
I think everyone acknowledged a long time ago that Minnesota has the best featured back in the NFL by a long margin, and yes I agree that stats rarely tell the full story, in this case:

Williams and Stewart have more yards, more yards per carry, less turnovers and more touchdowns.

The Rushing offense is ranked 4th in the NFL compared to 6th

There is a case to be made.

I look at it like this:

Adrian Peterson is a 9.5 out of 10 back (fumbles and some receiving game issues prevent the full 10)

Chester Taylor is barely a 5.5 out of 10 back

DeAngelo is an 8 out of 10
Stewart is a 7.5 out of ten

As a tandem Deangelo and Stewart are the better Pair, but as singular players Peterson is far and away a better runner.

That being said, I still think Tennessee gets the nod as the best tandem and NYG are far and away the best ground unit in the NFL.
I see a bigger gap between Adrian Peterson and DeAngelo Williams than I do between Chester Taylor and Jonathan Stewart. Don't get how AD is only 1.5 higher than DW, while CT is 2 full points behind Stew.
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Old 12-13-2008, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
his injury history? you mean the nagging hamstring pulls or the gimpy ankle? or the rather catastrophic broken bones? that's hardly an "injury history". that's some bad luck on hits.
Because since his first season at the college level he's struggled to play full seasons at any level of competition. He might just be unlucky, fair enough, but you can't quantify luck and you can quantify what carries do to the longevity of a running back.


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and i think that's a silly opinion. is deangelo williams really not as good as you think? i mean, why else would the panthers have drafted a replacement for him and be giving stewart so many carries? i guess he's "just average". i mean, he has the same YPC that taylor had last year for the vikings. and if he's "just average" now, i'd hate to hear what you thought of him for the first 54% of the season.
Probably because until this season Williams wasn't turning out to be the player the team initially thought he could be. He showed flashes as a rookie and struggled a little last year picking up the newer offense. This year, his second in Davidson's system, with an actually decent line and quarterback who isn't terrified of his own shadow or legally able to claim a pension he's exploded.

I'm not saying that Williams has been good his whole career. I've never made that statement.

In fact until this year I wasn't sure how well he'd go. My predictions for his performance were made in the preseason during training camp when everyone who visited camp commented on how much better he looked than years past.

In his first year Dan Henning was useless, in his second there was a new system and delhomme was out for the year. In his third he knows the offense has a supporting cast and has shown what he can do.

I don't know why stewart was drafted, I'm not in the draft room and I'm not going to speculate because it has nothing to do with my point.

Right now, Stewart and Williams are a better tandem than Peterson and Taylor simply saying "because I said so" and "he was good in the past" is no definitive statement. It's not even an opinion with a statistical basis.

That being said I'm not even saying that Williams and Stewart are the best in the NFL right now.
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Old 12-13-2008, 10:02 PM    (permalink
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What I'm saying is that with Peterson having some nicks and injuries and having a history of not being the most dependable, durable back, if you've got a runner who's supposedly better than average, why would he not be seeing some more carries, not even a 50/50 split necessarily, just more carries, more consistently? It doesn't make sense to have a player whom you're saying is good to be benched while you've got a guy who's nicked up and hurting with an injury history on pace

o carry for 350 times. It doesn't make a huge amount of sense. Why did you only pick one paragraph of my statement? I posted this
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Probably because until this season Williams wasn't turning out to be the player the team initially thought he could be. He showed flashes as a rookie and struggled a little last year picking up the newer offense. This year, his second in Davidson's system, with an actually decent line and quarterback who isn't terrified of his own shadow or legally able to claim a pension he's exploded.
He wasn't looking like the feature back we all thought he would be. I posted several factors why that could be and ultimately concluded I didn't know the real concrete reason. How is that not posting to help Williams? I just said this is year 1/3 that he's been good enough to be a starter.
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i fail to see where i've suggested they're not or further, where you'd come up with the ludicrous and dishonest opinion that it's simply because "i told you so". making up arguments and then attributing them to me won't further YOUR point.
All you've done is say Chester Taylor is a good back who's not getting carries because Adrian Peterson is the human equivalent of the Juggernaut and is likely the next stage of human evolution and just picked parts of an overall argument to attack. Make your point already.
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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DeAngelo is > AD because he doesn't fumble
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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What I'm saying is that with Peterson having some nicks and injuries and having a history of not being the most dependable.
It's like people just make this stuff up about AD, so is Portis, Bush, Steven Jackson, or anyone other Rb that has ever played in the NFL injury prone also? He's barely gotten hurt since he's been drafted, it's impossible for him to go without one injury, yet people still act like he has some sort of injury concerns.


If AD has a history of not being dependable, I'd love to know what Portis, Brandon Jacobs, Steven Jackson, Reggie Bush, and alot of other backs are considered.
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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At this point, while I still would want the Peterson/Taylor duo simply to have Peterson, there's no arguing that these two are hands down the most dynamic pair in the NFL at this point.
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