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Old 01-29-2009, 08:34 PM    (permalink
tony77
 
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RaiderNation, don't you think that Cliff Branch is being totally slighted? He finished in the top 10 in Y/R 5 times (Led 2x), TDs 5 times, receptions twice, and Y/Gm three times (Led 2x).

Smith led in receptions one season and never finished in the Top 10 in receiving TDs. While Smith has been to 5 Pro Bowls, Branch made 4, but was All-Pro 3 times and played on 3 Super Bowl Title teams.

I mean Derrick Mason and Joe Horn are ahead of Branch, too? Really?
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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i Think So.
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JBond93 View Post
I don't think anyone is leaving Jerry Rice off the list.
I think Jerry Rice is the best WR to ever play the game. When I say Hutson "maybe" is the best WR to ever play the game I meant because alot of people who watched him play still say hes the best to ever play WR.

If you read this part of my other post before that one you would realize this...

No Don Hutson in the top 10 = fail other than Jerry Rice he was probably the greatest WR in NFL History.

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Old 01-30-2009, 12:37 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RedskinNation View Post
I think Jerry Rice is the best WR to ever play the game. When I say Hutson "maybe" is the best WR to ever play the game I meant because alot of people who watched him play still say hes the best to ever play WR.

If you read this part of my other post before that one you would realize this...

No Don Hutson in the top 10 = fail other than Jerry Rice he was probably the greatest WR in NFL History.
Ok, seriously, that argument is getting really ridiculous. Was Hutson a great WR? Absolutely. Is it valid to leave a player who retired in 1945 off of a list based from stats? Absolutely. Hutson played in an era of professional football that is comparable to the pre-1901 football. The game evolves, and has evolved over the last 40 years, but before the 60s it was completely different. With a completely different context, you can't really bring these guys into the discussion.

Should we dig into the 1880s to talk about the best baseball players in every situation? Neither should we feel the need to dig into 1935-45 anytime we are talking about the best football players.
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:59 AM    (permalink
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Was he ever a top 5 WR in the league at any point? I dont think so.
Yes. You don't make the All Pro list twice not being one of the best receivers in the league at a certain point in time.
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:52 AM    (permalink
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Yeah 1966 I know. It just dont make sense to have a All-Time WR list and leave out maybe the best WR to ever play the game. I see what your saying about the gamefilm but a top WR list isnt the same without Don Hutson just like a QB list isnt the same without Sammy Baugh, etc.
The Super Bowl Era began in 1966. The AFL/NFL Merger actually happened in 1970. It probably makes sense to look from 1970 forward because you have one league with 26 teams (instead of one with 10 and another with 16, making it much easier for players to finish in the Top 10 of their respective statistical categories). I am a little hesitant to throw out Bobby Mitchell-type guys, because I think we started to see a passing game that resembles today's game.

We certainly don't want to discount guys like Hutson, but he has no contemporaries to speak of, so he dominated everyone in an era when no one saw downfield passing in their lives.

What this list does is help put things in perspective for the modern-era players. We already know Hutson was a pioneer of the passing game. What we don't know is how guys like Jimmy Smith, Herman Moore, Torry Holt, etc stack up against the greats like Largent, Charley Taylor, Biletnikoff, etc.

So Chase created a model to help us identify some of these things, which gives a great visual, but I think certain factors need to be used other than raw statistics. I like to reward players who played on great teams, won MVPs, made Super Bowl appearances and were named to the All-Pro team.

What I do not like to do is promote guys who were "compilers" over the course of their careers. Don't get me wrong here, I believe guys should be recognized for playing 12, 15, 18 years in the NFL because it is violent and dangerous, and the average career is about 3.5 years.

And this is why I propose using something along the lines of Per Game stats. This helps to give proper recognition to guys like Sterling Sharpe whose career was cut short by injury (who was unreal, by the way, given that his QBs were guys like Majkowski and Tomczak for four years).

Hey, nothing is going to be perfect, but there are ways refine a model to give us the best representation. Just so you guys know, I have no agendas with any of my opinions here. I am Giants fan, a franchise that has not had a Pro Bowl receiver in over 40 years.

Last edited by tony77 : 01-30-2009 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 01-30-2009, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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Yes. You don't make the All Pro list twice not being one of the best receivers in the league at a certain point in time.
Bingo.

I'm glad this thread is bringing some attention to one of the most underrated players of our time. Jimmy was a faster Chad Johnson minus the attitude. Is he top 10 of all time? Probably not. Top 20? Absolutely.
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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Underrated is fine. There are plenty of underrated players that never got to the Hall and I am not trying to diminish his accomplishments.

But I have a hard time putting him ahead of guys like Branch, Sterling Sharpe, or even Henry Ellard.
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Old 01-30-2009, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RedskinNation View Post
Comparing Art Monk to Vinny Testaverde is kinda funny.

Monk performed great in every aspect of the game. He helped the Redskins win games by moving the chains, making plays to win games, blocking which is something most WRs cant do nowadays, and he was a true leader for the Redskins. If the Redskins didnt have one of the best WR corps in NFL History he would of gotten more double coverage but also would of had bigger stats.

Did Art Monk ever complain about not getting the ball enough in games? No. He went out every Sunday and laid everything out there on the field for his team. When his career was all said and done he was the top reception leader in NFL History doing it the right way. Just because some of the stats arent there doesnt mean he wasnt a top WR. The stats can be tricky sometimes and in this case they are.

If Art Monk complained like Terrell Owens and wanted more targets he could of got them and put up huge numbers but guess what? The Redskins wouldnt of won the Super Bowls they did with Monk playing WR. If you say what do you want from a WR you look at a guy like Art Monk.
At least you're being objective.
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Old 01-30-2009, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RedskinNation View Post
Comparing Art Monk to Vinny Testaverde is kinda funny.

Monk performed great in every aspect of the game. He helped the Redskins win games by moving the chains, making plays to win games, blocking which is something most WRs cant do nowadays, and he was a true leader for the Redskins. If the Redskins didnt have one of the best WR corps in NFL History he would of gotten more double coverage but also would of had bigger stats.

Did Art Monk ever complain about not getting the ball enough in games? No. He went out every Sunday and laid everything out there on the field for his team. When his career was all said and done he was the top reception leader in NFL History doing it the right way. Just because some of the stats arent there doesnt mean he wasnt a top WR. The stats can be tricky sometimes and in this case they are.

If Art Monk complained like Terrell Owens and wanted more targets he could of got them and put up huge numbers but guess what? The Redskins wouldnt of won the Super Bowls they did with Monk playing WR. If you say what do you want from a WR you look at a guy like Art Monk.
In three Superbowl appearances, Art Monk collected a grand total of 9 catches for 179 yards. It's the reason it took him so long to get into the HOF.
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Old 01-31-2009, 02:57 AM    (permalink
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Bingo.

I'm glad this thread is bringing some attention to one of the most underrated players of our time. Jimmy was a faster Chad Johnson minus the attitude. Is he top 10 of all time? Probably not. Top 20? Absolutely.
Again, Rod Smith put up similar stats. Both were GOOD players, but they weren't GREAT.
Hines Ward is another good player, but not great. I see him getting in the Hall though because he played for the Steelers, and there is a considerable bias towards Steeler players.
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Old 01-31-2009, 04:31 AM    (permalink
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Again, Rod Smith put up similar stats. Both were GOOD players, but they weren't GREAT.
Hines Ward is another good player, but not great. I see him getting in the Hall though because he played for the Steelers, and there is a considerable bias towards Steeler players.
It would be an absolute travesty if Hines Ward made the Hall of Fame.

Seriously, look at those year-by-year stats. It's absolutely awful.

If people are questioning whether or not Tim Brown should get into the Hall of Fame (which every major sports website did--I specifically remember the Czar writing a fat article about it), there is no way that Ward should be in there.
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Old 01-31-2009, 09:04 AM    (permalink
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Tim Brown is the best receiver not in the Hall right now.

Top 10 in TDs: 8 times
Receptions: 6 times (Led 1x)
Yds/Game: 5 times

One Super Bowl Appearance

9-time Pro Bowler

Jimmy Smith's resume isn't even close to this. Again, nice player. Not a great one.
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Old 01-31-2009, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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Brown is eligible for Canton for the first time next season. Unfortunately for Tim so is Jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith who will lock up two spots automatically leaving only three spots open for the other 13 modern era finalists.

If Cris Carter had been elected today it would have helped Brown's chances for 2010 as he surely would have next in line for wide receivers after Rice. Now he finds himself competing with Carter for induction. Both these guys will get elected though, its just a matter of when not if.

I don't like Jimmy Smith's chances for Canton though. Andre Reed is struggling to get elected and he had 951 catches for 13,198 yds and 87 TDs as well as playing in 4 Super Bowls for Buffalo. Smith had (862-12,287-67) and never had a double-digit TD season. Both Reed and Smith were also 2nd team All-Pro on two occassions each so are evenly matched on that criteria. Where Smith does have an advantage over Reed is 1,000yd seasons (9 v 4).

What is also going to hurt Smith are the huge numbers posted by Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce, Randy Moss, TO and others like Torry Holt. In fact TO (139) and Moss (135) have already scored more than twice as many TD receptions as Smith (67) and Harrison should too (128). I think Smith will miss out alongside Rod Smith who finished with similar career numbers (849-11,389-68) with eight 1,000yd seasons.
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Old 01-31-2009, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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Ok, seriously, that argument is getting really ridiculous. Was Hutson a great WR? Absolutely. Is it valid to leave a player who retired in 1945 off of a list based from stats? Absolutely. Hutson played in an era of professional football that is comparable to the pre-1901 football. The game evolves, and has evolved over the last 40 years, but before the 60s it was completely different. With a completely different context, you can't really bring these guys into the discussion.
I don't really see why not. Sure, the game was drastically different, but that really makes Hutson's production that much more amazing. He put up more yards and touchdowns through the air than most other entire NFL offenses managed to.

I don't think you can make a direct comparison to a modern-era football player, but you can make a comparison to their respective peers. Hutson would be in my top 5 best wideouts of all time, no question.
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Old 01-31-2009, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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Hutson totally revolutionised the wide receiver position.

His NFL record of 99 TD receptions stood for nearly 50 years until Steve Largent broke it. Even in today's game 99 career TDs is a great feat. During Hutson's era it was simply incredible.

To get a measure on how he dominated his era Hutson led the NFL in receiving in 8 of his 11 seasons and in scoring 5 straight years. Twice, in 1941 and 1942, he was named the league’s MVP. When he retired with 18 NFL records including 488 career receptions, he was over 200 receptions clear of 2nd place (over 70% more).
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