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Old 02-02-2009, 01:52 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco99
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See being physically gifted is ALOT more then just speed.....elway had protypical size, a arm from god...pretty fast for a QB(sure not like vick, but he was a threat to run it also)


i would say from an aspect of EVERYTHING! elway was about as close as one would want if they could peice together a QB....ARM,ATHLETIC,SIZE...
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:53 AM    (permalink
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Elway can fly. Winner winner...
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:46 AM    (permalink
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I think right now in the league though, JaMarcus Russell has to be the most talented QB.

He has great size, good speed (speed relative to his size: great), the biggest arm, and good accuracy. The combination of touch and zip on his passes is pretty spectacular in some cases as well. I really hope he can get some protection and weapons.
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by dregolll View Post
Both were #1 overall picks in their respective draft classes, But in terms of Arm Strength, release and just raw physical gifts, who comes out on top and why?
PHYSICALLY gifted?

Dictionary Definition

phys·i·cal

Of or relating to the body as distinguished from the mind or spirit.


Physically gifted, it's Michael Vick no argument whatsoever.


But Im sure there are many people who stated Elway because they have misinterpreted the definition of the word Physically or just because they think it's blasphemy to rate Vick over Elway in any category.


Vick is the most PHYSICALLY gifted QB to ever put on a helmet. That's why it's such a shame he wasted that talent by bad decisions on and off the field.
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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Well, scouts and GM's obviously thought John Elway was the most talented QB by a wide margin. Elway got a perfect '10' in his scouting report when he was drafted and I'm pretty sure he is the only QB to ever get that high a rating. Vick was physically gifted but it didn't include accuracy and last I looked Championship QB's have to be accurate. Among starting pro QB's who earned their living passing the ball, I'd suggest Vick was one of the worse in pro football history. Absolute tremendous runner but QB's aren't paid to run the football, they are paid to pass it.

A)John Elway was rated higher because there is more than PHYSICAL GIFTS That is taken into account. Vick was incredibly raw coming out of college as a REdshirt Sophmore for starters. To say something like that or a HOF career is proof of being more physically gifted is just plain silly. Again no clear understanding of what it means to be physically gifted or a stretch of an interpretation.

B) To say that Vick was one of the worst passers in NFL history, just goes to show how underrated as a passer Vick truly was. Vick was top 10 in the league in passing touchdowns in his last year in the league and in the top 10 in TD/INT ratio in his first and last year in the league. To say he's one of the worst passers in NFL history when every year you have QBs who have more INTs than TDs, something Vick never did in a year as a starter, is just absurd.

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Old 02-02-2009, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Well, scouts and GM's obviously thought John Elway was the most talented QB by a wide margin. Elway got a perfect '10' in his scouting report when he was drafted and I'm pretty sure he is the only QB to ever get that high a rating. Vick was physically gifted but it didn't include accuracy and last I looked Championship QB's have to be accurate. Among starting pro QB's who earned their living passing the ball, I'd suggest Vick was one of the worse in pro football history. Absolute tremendous runner but QB's aren't paid to run the football, they are paid to pass it.
In terms of athleticism, if its accuracy in terms of being unable to throw the ball where you want it than that really hurts your athleticism. If its being able to throw where you want to but that spot being wrong than its your mental ability and not athleticism. I strongly suspect its the latter with him, thats the case with most QBs that throwing is off. Hand injuries is usually what causes your throwing aim to be off.

I don't think Vick is nearly as bad as you say, even if you assume your talking about consistent starters, ie not Ryan Leaf busts or backups. He's below average, but their are starters that are worse each year.

And QBs are paid to win, doesn't matter how they do it.
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Old 02-03-2009, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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In terms of athleticism, if its accuracy in terms of being unable to throw the ball where you want it than that really hurts your athleticism. If its being able to throw where you want to but that spot being wrong than its your mental ability and not athleticism. I strongly suspect its the latter with him, thats the case with most QBs that throwing is off. Hand injuries is usually what causes your throwing aim to be off.

I don't think Vick is nearly as bad as you say, even if you assume your talking about consistent starters, ie not Ryan Leaf busts or backups. He's below average, but their are starters that are worse each year.

And QBs are paid to win, doesn't matter how they do it.
Exactly. The idea that Vick was the worst passer in NFL history is absurd when there are guys who are rated worse every single year he was a starter.

And yes the rushing numbers have to be taken into account because TDs and first downs count the same no matter if you get them through the air or on the ground.

Take the 2006 season Vick had for example. He averaged more yards per carry than all but two QBs averaged per passing attempt.

And his totals?

22 TDs 16 TOs

Guess who had similar numbers?

Tom Brady- 24 TDs 16 TOs


The difference in their total yardage? 7 yards per game. Yardage that could have been accumulated if Vick did not come out of the last game of that season for precautionary reasons.
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Old 02-03-2009, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Best athlete to ever play QB-Vick

Most physically gifted to play that postion-Elway
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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It's nice that Vick was fast and all, but being able to run is not the most important attribute for a QB. QB's are supposed to get the ball to the 'playmakers', not try to make all the plays with their feet. Vick may have had a strong arm, but he also was 5'11. Not having ideal height hurt his passing game. It wasn't just being a dumbazz that stopped him from being a great passer.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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It's nice that Vick was fast and all, but being able to run is not the most important attribute for a QB. QB's are supposed to get the ball to the 'playmakers', not try to make all the plays with their feet. Vick may have had a strong arm, but he also was 5'11. Not having ideal height hurt his passing game. It wasn't just being a dumbazz that stopped him from being a great passer.
First of all he was 6'0 and change.

The reason why Vick was the most physically gifted QB ever isn't just because he could run like Devin Hester, it's because he matched elite athleticism with elite arm strength. He had the ability to throw 50 yard lasers on a frozen rope.

And people throw in passing windows not over people's heads. If height was such a problem, another 6'0 QB would not have come one completion away from breaking the single season passing yardage record.


The fact that people refuse to acknowledge Vick as the most physically gifted QB just goes to show the unbelievable bias/hatred against the guy.


They don't want him to hold any title except the guy who wasted the most talent. Which he obviously did. But they refuse to admit that he had the most.
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Old 02-04-2009, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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Best athlete to ever play QB-Vick

Most physically gifted to play that postion-Elway
Some would say that's the same thing...Physically Elway doesn't touch Michael Vick, in anything really...Outside of the mental aspect, or something you can't determine like leadership I'd love to know what Elway had over Vick as far as physical gifts.


I get the accuracy argument, but I'm not sure I'd put that in the category of "physical traits".
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Old 02-04-2009, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Some would say that's the same thing...Physically Elway doesn't touch Michael Vick, in anything really...Outside of the mental aspect, or something you can't determine like leadership I'd love to know what Elway had over Vick as far as physical gifts.


I get the accuracy argument, but I'm not sure I'd put that in the category of "physical traits".
It's not.

phys·i·cal (fz-kl)
adj.

Of or relating to the body as distinguished from the mind or spirit.


Accuracy, reading defense, pocket poise, presence, etc has nothing to do with physical gifts.

Vick is clearly the most physically gifted QB in NFL history and it's not even close. It's really a silly thread to start because it's so obvious. But what has made it even more silly is for people to fail to even acknowledge the obvious.
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Old 02-04-2009, 05:03 PM    (permalink
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No love for the QB's that are so gifted they can throw the ball to themselfs
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Old 02-04-2009, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Not to be a grammar hammer, but if it's between two it should be which one is "More Physically Gifted". My vote goes to Michael Vick, but all-time it's Steve Stenstrom.
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Old 02-04-2009, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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havent read any of the other posts, dont really care. vick was the most physically gifted qb the league has ever seen. he was also a horrible qb, so give me a statue still qb like peyton any day
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Old 02-04-2009, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Vick wasn't even the best mobile QB: that would be Randall Cunningham. Everyone seems to forget that in 1990 he had a 3,400 yards, 30/13 TD/INT ratio and ran for 942 yards and another five touchdowns. Vick never came close to Randall Cunningham type performance.
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Old 02-04-2009, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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Vick wasn't even the best mobile QB: that would be Randall Cunningham. Everyone seems to forget that in 1990 he had a 3,400 yards, 30/13 TD/INT ratio and ran for 942 yards and another five touchdowns. Vick never came close to Randall Cunningham type performance.
Maximizing one's potential and having physical gifts are two completely different things.

That's why Randall Cunningham is a fringe HOFer while Vick is in prison.

But Randall Cunningham was not more talented than Vick. If Cunningham had Vick's physical gifts, with a much better work ethic than Vick he'd be considered the GOAT.

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Old 02-07-2009, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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I still dont really see how this is a debate.....



At the combine you have certain drills that are usually orientated for certain positions....


you judge positions by certain attributes.....


exe.

a WR with a 4.9 40 time, 40 reps at bench....doesnt really scream ATHLETIC!!

but flip that to a OT...thats PRETTY ATHLETIC!

my point is being able to run a 4.3 at QB doesnt really matter...its a positive thing...but being 6'4 i think is a better thing for a quarterback then being fast....having a more prototypical game is better then being a HB playin QB.


So to lay it out to judge a QB i think you judge what matters...and if you look at Elway...you have a CANNON, Great size, pretty good speed and as what was posted earlier prob. one of the best QB prospects EVER!

so to say vick is the better athlete because he is fast....is really misinformed becasue speed isnt everything....ESPECIALLY for QB
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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Vick is a better athlete. He is the more athletically gifted, but Elway is more gifted as a QB. Vick was fast, had strong arm, and was incredibly elusive. Elway was big, accurate, could read defenses, could scramble well, and had a big arm. Vick had the physical gifts people dream about but Elway had it all together with still amazing gifts.
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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So to lay it out to judge a QB i think you judge what matters...and if you look at Elway...you have a CANNON, Great size, pretty good speed and as what was posted earlier prob. one of the best QB prospects EVER!

so to say vick is the better athlete because he is fast....is really misinformed becasue speed isnt everything....ESPECIALLY for QB
its not about a QB.

If you talk about a WR and an OT, the WR is obviously more athletic even if he is slow for a WR.

Vick was faster than Elway, had about the same Arm and Great size. i dont see why he is not the better athlete.

There is no question about who is better at passing
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Old 02-07-2009, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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More physically gifted? I have to go with Vick. Not to say it isn't close and it only really depends on how much you want to factor size into positional consideration. But nothing physically separated Elway's throwing ability from Vick's. That was all mental ability. And a whole lot separated Vick's running ability from Elway.
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Old 02-08-2009, 12:15 AM    (permalink
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I never thought Vick's size hurt him much, he was fairly thick and had a really high release point.
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