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Old 08-10-2009, 01:53 PM    (permalink
herniateddisc
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Originally Posted by Macarthur View Post
...BTW, neither would have lasted until the 7th round.
That is simply your lone opinion.

An injured QB/Athlete at the top of the 4th is a mistake.

A under-performing QB from A&M at the top of the fourth is a mistake.

3/4 rounds are for OL and DL -- most good skill positions guys are long gone and the developmental guys in skill positions usually go 5/6/7....
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Old 08-10-2009, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
I love the value of 4th round picks. Barber and Canty topping the list of course.. but Stanback and Free are like the complete opposite. Honestly, I was like WTF when we drafted Stanback. In fact, I was mad that they passed on Free to take him. So when we did get Free I was damn happy. Then Free showed high bust potential in Year 1 and I've never thought highly of him since. So Stanback is crap and Free is crap. I was mad at one and happy at the other when we drafted them. Hindsight 20/20... I should've been mad that we made both picks. LOL.

This year? IMO, we wasted the McGee and Williams picks in the 4th. Wasted the Brewster pick too. The rest I was ok with. I mean... I liked McGee as a QB option in the draft, but I didn't want to address QB any higher than the 6th or 7th. McGee was rising, but I want a player who can bring more impact in the 4th. QB development for us in our current situation? Didn't make enough sense for me to use the first pick of the 4th for someone battling for the 3rd string QB job.

I brought up this sleeper's name a lot before the draft, but I wish we took Vaughn Martin. The guy is gonna be a flat out beast at NT for the Chargers.

NT for Jerry is like QB -- he does not want to waste early picks on them.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by herniateddisc View Post
That is simply your lone opinion.

An injured QB/Athlete at the top of the 4th is a mistake.

A under-performing QB from A&M at the top of the fourth is a mistake.

3/4 rounds are for OL and DL -- most good skill positions guys are long gone and the developmental guys in skill positions usually go 5/6/7....


McGee -

*************.com had him listed as 3rd to 4th rounder.
http://www.*************.com/ratings...2009&genpos=QB

Steve has him 2nd or 3rd rounder.
http://www.draftcountdown.com/scouti...phen-McGee.php

nfldraftbible.com listed him as 3rd rounder.
http://www.nfldraftbible.com/Players...hen-McGee.html

SI - rd 4
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ist/index.html

nfldraft101.com - 5th
http://www.nfldraft101.com/profiles/...phen_McGee.jsp

Do I need to go on?



Stanback

4th or 5th
http://www.seattlepi.com/football/312897_draft25.html

Scott had him as the 12th WR - Not sure what that translates but it's not a 7th.

Look, the issue is not whether these guys pan out. They may not. The problem is that we, as Cowboys fans, only look at our hits and misses. Did you look last night at how many high draft picks the Titans had that haven't done anything.

You can find players at all positions in all rounds. I think your points are just all around flawed. Again, that doesn't mean you will be wrong on these guys. It's just flawed thinking to say because we picked this guy here, he's a miss and this one's a hit because we picked him here. It's a crap shoot many times. Everyone talks about NE being genius, but if they were so damn smart, they would have taken Brady in the 1st round.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:33 PM    (permalink
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NT for Jerry is like QB -- he does not want to waste early picks on them.
Huh? Troy Aikman.... ring a bell?

Besides, Martin went in the 4th after McGee. If I had a redo, I take Martin. Heck, I take a lot of other guys for that matter. 3rd string QB... should've waited for the 6th or 7th. Maybe even the 5th with the amount of picks we had. Definitely don't like what I'm hearing about McGee in TC. Sad.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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McGee -

*************.com had him listed as 3rd to 4th rounder.
http://www.*************.com/ratings...2009&genpos=QB

Steve has him 2nd or 3rd rounder.
http://www.draftcountdown.com/scouti...phen-McGee.php

nfldraftbible.com listed him as 3rd rounder.
http://www.nfldraftbible.com/Players...hen-McGee.html

SI - rd 4
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ist/index.html

nfldraft101.com - 5th
http://www.nfldraft101.com/profiles/...phen_McGee.jsp

Do I need to go on?



Stanback

4th or 5th
http://www.seattlepi.com/football/312897_draft25.html

Scott had him as the 12th WR - Not sure what that translates but it's not a 7th.

Look, the issue is not whether these guys pan out. They may not. The problem is that we, as Cowboys fans, only look at our hits and misses. Did you look last night at how many high draft picks the Titans had that haven't done anything.

You can find players at all positions in all rounds. I think your points are just all around flawed. Again, that doesn't mean you will be wrong on these guys. It's just flawed thinking to say because we picked this guy here, he's a miss and this one's a hit because we picked him here. It's a crap shoot many times. Everyone talks about NE being genius, but if they were so damn smart, they would have taken Brady in the 1st round.
haha. Good points... except that one. Maybe they were so smart they knew they didn't have to spend a 1st rounder on him.

NE is genius. THEY GOT BRANDON TATE!!! MY LOVE!!!!
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Old 08-10-2009, 08:02 PM    (permalink
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Huh? Troy Aikman.... ring a bell?

Besides, Martin went in the 4th after McGee. If I had a redo, I take Martin. Heck, I take a lot of other guys for that matter. 3rd string QB... should've waited for the 6th or 7th. Maybe even the 5th with the amount of picks we had. Definitely don't like what I'm hearing about McGee in TC. Sad.
Jones is on record saying he does not like taking QBs early on -- lots of money, don't really contribute early, bust potential.

FWIW, Troy Aikman was unanimous #1 anyway ... not much thought there. Plus they did not have a lot of time for that one since the sale occurred that off season and Johnson was brought in almost immediately.

In fact, if you go back, that Aikman draft for Dallas was Ok but not quite like 1990 to 1993.
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Old 08-10-2009, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Macarthur View Post
McGee -

*************.com had him listed as 3rd to 4th rounder.
http://www.*************.com/ratings...2009&genpos=QB

Steve has him 2nd or 3rd rounder.
http://www.draftcountdown.com/scouti...phen-McGee.php

nfldraftbible.com listed him as 3rd rounder.
http://www.nfldraftbible.com/Players...hen-McGee.html

SI - rd 4
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ist/index.html

nfldraft101.com - 5th
http://www.nfldraft101.com/profiles/...phen_McGee.jsp

Do I need to go on?



Stanback

4th or 5th
http://www.seattlepi.com/football/312897_draft25.html

Scott had him as the 12th WR - Not sure what that translates but it's not a 7th.

Look, the issue is not whether these guys pan out. They may not. The problem is that we, as Cowboys fans, only look at our hits and misses. Did you look last night at how many high draft picks the Titans had that haven't done anything.

You can find players at all positions in all rounds. I think your points are just all around flawed. Again, that doesn't mean you will be wrong on these guys. It's just flawed thinking to say because we picked this guy here, he's a miss and this one's a hit because we picked him here. It's a crap shoot many times. Everyone talks about NE being genius, but if they were so damn smart, they would have taken Brady in the 1st round.
Some of the links don't work or support your position but moving along .......

McGee was at best a late riser but in all the mocks was still projected 5/6/7. His good combine helped him move up obviously. But look at Scott's eval .... does that sound like a Pro QB to you?

But no need to go on, as I said, when drafting the Cowboys consistently pick guys very early relative to their perceived value.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, given the trench needs wasting an "almost third rounder" in two of the past 3 drafts is stooopid. EVERYONE KNOWS THESE ARE DEVELOPMENTAL SKILL GUYS.

So take OL or DT instead who can likely contribute in years 2/3.
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by herniateddisc View Post
Jones is on record saying he does not like taking QBs early on -- lots of money, don't really contribute early, bust potential.

FWIW, Troy Aikman was unanimous #1 anyway ... not much thought there. Plus they did not have a lot of time for that one since the sale occurred that off season and Johnson was brought in almost immediately.

In fact, if you go back, that Aikman draft for Dallas was Ok but not quite like 1990 to 1993.
Jerry says a lot of things... You know that. In the right need situation, he would do it again.

Back to what I was saying... I'll be watching Vaughn Martin from afar. He was an interesting NT option. Loved the Chargers draft overall for that matter. Louis Vazquez, Tyrone Greene, Larry English, Martin... these guys are one of the teams that "get it".
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:10 PM    (permalink
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Some of the links don't work or support your position but moving along .......

McGee was at best a late riser but in all the mocks was still projected 5/6/7. His good combine helped him move up obviously. But look at Scott's eval .... does that sound like a Pro QB to you?

But no need to go on, as I said, when drafting the Cowboys consistently pick guys very early relative to their perceived value.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, given the trench needs wasting an "almost third rounder" in two of the past 3 drafts is stooopid. EVERYONE KNOWS THESE ARE DEVELOPMENTAL SKILL GUYS.

So take OL or DT instead who can likely contribute in years 2/3.
I agree with you on OL and DL... But I also like what Tom Ciskowski had done last year. ...and I don't hate all the picks this year or the logic behind enhancing STs and Backups. I just wish we came away with more help in the trenches or Rey Rey.
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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Jerry says a lot of things... You know that. In the right need situation, he would do it again.

Back to what I was saying... I'll be watching Vaughn Martin from afar. He was an interesting NT option. Loved the Chargers draft overall for that matter. Louis Vazquez, Tyrone Greene, Larry English, Martin... these guys are one of the teams that "get it".
I remember than taking Siler in the 6th and saying damn these guys get it. They do. SD's big problem is play on the beach.
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Old 08-11-2009, 09:52 AM    (permalink
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How is witten and Austin doing so far?
Both are doing well. Witten is playing like what he is, a Pro Bowl TE in his prime. Austin is also impressive in camp. I don't know that he will win the #2 WR job since Crayton is also playing well and has the advantage of having participated in mini-camp and the OTAs, but Austin should be on the field a lot this year if he can stay healthy. They are looking to him to stretch the field.
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Old 08-11-2009, 09:54 AM    (permalink
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Some of the links don't work or support your position but moving along .......

McGee was at best a late riser but in all the mocks was still projected 5/6/7. His good combine helped him move up obviously. But look at Scott's eval .... does that sound like a Pro QB to you?

But no need to go on, as I said, when drafting the Cowboys consistently pick guys very early relative to their perceived value.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, given the trench needs wasting an "almost third rounder" in two of the past 3 drafts is stooopid. EVERYONE KNOWS THESE ARE DEVELOPMENTAL SKILL GUYS.

So take OL or DT instead who can likely contribute in years 2/3.

Right on que, here's a DMN blog about McGee's progress:

We got a glimpse of Stephen McGee's potential during his two-minute drill series Monday afternoon.

McGee engineered a drive that set up a short field goal attempt. He's rarely thrown the ball downfield during training camp, but McGee displayed his arm strength with a couple of ropes that accounted for most of the yardage on the drive. He zipped an out route to Manny Johnson for 15 yards, putting the ball into a pretty small window. A few plays later, he hit Jesse Holley with a 30-yard line drive on a seam route.

It was one of the first times McGee, who has looked hesitant while throwing mainly checkdowns and/or holding the ball for too long, seemed comfortable this camp. The Cowboys drafted McGee with the first pick of the fourth round, despite his disappointing college career, because they believe he has the tools and character to develop into a starting-caliber quarterback.

"When you're a quarterback, particularly a young quarterback, there is a lot of stuff coming at you," offensive coordinator Jason Garrett said. "To make the transition from college to pro is not easy, but he's doing it the right way. He's in early, he stays late, he asks a lot of questions. He's approaching it the right way, and when he gets reps, he's trying to take advantage of it."
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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Right on que, here's a DMN blog about McGee's progress: We got a glimpse of Stephen McGee's potential during his two-minute drill series Monday afternoon.
One word Drew Henson -- and he was more talented.

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..... He zipped an out route to Manny Johnson for 15 yards, putting the ball into a pretty small window. A few plays later, he hit Jesse Holley with a 30-yard line drive on a seam route.
Johnson and Holley .... enuff said.

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"When you're a quarterback, particularly a young quarterback, there is a lot of stuff coming at you," offensive coordinator Jason Garrett said. "To make the transition from college to pro is not easy, but he's doing it the right way. He's in early, he stays late, he asks a lot of questions. He's approaching it the right way, and when he gets reps, he's trying to take advantage of it."
I hope McGee becomes the next Joe Montana / Tom Brady. I really do. But it does not change my opinion that we are generally reaching for guys in the middle rounds.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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NT for Jerry is like QB -- he does not want to waste early picks on them.
I'm not getting how he would have been in the position to spend an early pick on a QB. Aikman was here for 12 years, and there was no reason to draft a QB high when you have a first overall, Pro Bowl, Hall of Fame QB on the team. When Aikman retired, the Cowboys had no first round picks because of the Galloway trade. It was a bad trade, but that's not the issue. They just weren't in a position to draft a QB high because they didn't have high picks in spite of their bad records. That's why Quincy was here. He was as high as they could get while still trading down to get more picks, since they traded a ton of picks to the Seahawks for Galloway and McKnight. Then Parcells came, and he stated that he wanted a bus driver. Plus he was giving Quincy a chance to prove himself, and we know what happened there.

The Cowboys had high first round picks in 2002 and 2003, but the team needed more than just a QB. Plus you had two stud defensive prospects in Roy Williams and T. Newman, so taking a QB wasn't a slam dunk then. In 2004 they had a low first rounder for making the playoffs, and RB was proven to be a bigger need than QB at the time. They traded down for more picks. In 2005 you had Ware and Merriman staring you down with a decently high pick, and taking Aaron Rodgers wasn't on the menu since Bledsoe was coming to town. Bledsoe had a good first season, so QB wasn't in the cards, and then Romo came around and had a Pro Bowl career so far. Jerry would spend a high pick on a QB if the team was in position and needed to, but that hasn't been the case.I'm sure that when Romo is done here they will spend either big bucks or a high pick to get a QB.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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I'm not getting how he would have been in the position to spend an early pick on a QB. Aikman was here for 12 years, and there was no reason to draft a QB high when you have a first overall, Pro Bowl, Hall of Fame QB on the team. When Aikman retired, the Cowboys had no first round picks because of the Galloway trade. It was a bad trade, but that's not the issue. They just weren't in a position to draft a QB high because they didn't have high picks in spite of their bad records. That's why Quincy was here. He was as high as they could get while still trading down to get more picks, since they traded a ton of picks to the Seahawks for Galloway and McKnight. Then Parcells came, and he stated that he wanted a bus driver. Plus he was giving Quincy a chance to prove himself, and we know what happened there.
I am not sure what straw-man you are pursuing but it is not mine. I am simply restating Jones is hesitant to spend big money on QBs, particularly if not can't miss prospect. He has said so. He also has stated that NT can be had later in drafts.

But he has passed on QBs and NT last few years when we could have used one. That we filled other neds regardless, yeah, of course.

There is no argument here.

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The Cowboys had high first round picks in 2002 and 2003, but the team needed more than just a QB. Plus you had two stud defensive prospects in Roy Williams and T. Newman, so taking a QB wasn't a slam dunk then. In 2004 they had a low first rounder for making the playoffs, and RB was proven to be a bigger need than QB at the time. They traded down for more picks. In 2005 you had Ware and Merriman staring you down with a decently high pick, and taking Aaron Rodgers wasn't on the menu since Bledsoe was coming to town. Bledsoe had a good first season, so QB wasn't in the cards, and then Romo came around and had a Pro Bowl career so far. Jerry would spend a high pick on a QB if the team was in position and needed to, but that hasn't been the case.I'm sure that when Romo is done here they will spend either big bucks or a high pick to get a QB.
Who knows when Romo is done. We shall see.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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I am not sure what straw-man you are pursuing but it is not mine. I am simply restating Jones is hesitant to spend big money on QBs, particularly if not can't miss prospect. He has said so. He also has stated that NT can be had later in drafts.

But he has passed on QBs and NT last few years when we could have used one. That we filled other neds regardless, yeah, of course.

There is no argument here.



Who knows when Romo is done. We shall see.
I was just responding to what I saw. Where did he say that he wouldn't spend the money? I'm not saying you're lying, but I want to see it. I think it's quite the opposite since he's spent some big money on Romo.

I also wanted to write a long post so that I can fill this football void. Thursday couldn't come quick enough for me.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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One word Drew Henson -- and he was more talented.



Johnson and Holley .... enuff said.



I hope McGee becomes the next Joe Montana / Tom Brady. I really do. But it does not change my opinion that we are generally reaching for guys in the middle rounds.
I'm not saying McGee is the second coming of Montana or Brady. Hell, I'd be thrilled if he someday proved to be the second coming of Danny White! There was a lot of discussion about him, and he's definintely been struggling in camp, looking like a very raw rookie. This blog just acknowledged that he finally played a little better yesterday. That's it, no grandiose predictions of future greatness, no expectations, just that the 3rd string QB looked a little sharper. Everyone knows that if we get in a situation where McGee has to come in for us this season, we're in a lot of trouble.

I didn't have a problem with them drafting him in the middle rounds because that's where most of the projections I saw had him going. I would have preferred Rhett Bomar, but I'm just happy we FINALLY have a developmental QB that we are evidently going to keep on the roster. Those guys can become valuable with a few years of development. Personally, I'm still mad that we let Matt Moore slip away a couple of years ago.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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Losing Matt Moore stung last season when Romo went down. His name has become synonymous with "ouch" for me.
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Old 08-12-2009, 01:28 AM    (permalink
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I agree with you on OL and DL... But I also like what Tom Ciskowski had done last year. ...and I don't hate all the picks this year or the logic behind enhancing STs and Backups. I just wish we came away with more help in the trenches or Rey Rey.
That's just because you took a picture with him ;)
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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Some of the links don't work or support your position but moving along .......
Nice way to dodge the issue. Every single one of those link supports my position. You are flat out wrong. There is no way McGee would have lasted beyond the 5th round. Do a simple google search and you will find evidence to support this. In fact, I found a couple of 2nd & 3rd round projections.


Quote:
McGee was at best a late riser but in all the mocks was still projected 5/6/7. His good combine helped him move up obviously. But look at Scott's eval .... does that sound like a Pro QB to you?
Are you smoking crack? Did you not look at Scott's report? It says 2nd or 3rd rounder!!!!



Quote:
But no need to go on, as I said, when drafting the Cowboys consistently pick guys very early relative to their perceived value.
Again, I think we don't see the forest for the trees. Every team takes some guys higher than other percieve.

When Dallas got Free and Marten, most thought those guys were a very good value. Same with Witten, both kids from Cinn were percieved to be good value, Phillips was sold value, Choice was a great pick, Scandrick, Ball and Brown have been decent for 7th rounders....I think you are using selective memory.

Sure, the Cowboys have had their misses, but SO HAS EVERYONE ELSE!

Quote:
MORE IMPORTANTLY, given the trench needs wasting an "almost third rounder" in two of the past 3 drafts is stooopid. EVERYONE KNOWS THESE ARE DEVELOPMENTAL SKILL GUYS.

So take OL or DT instead who can likely contribute in years 2/3.
I would have loved to have more help in the trenches, too. But I am going to give Chisnick (sp?) the benefit of the doubt. They really wanted Unger and once he went, they didn't feel there was value there. We can kick around our opinions whether they were right or not, but I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt because Chisnick and his staff have been pretty solid the last couple of years.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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Losing Matt Moore stung last season when Romo went down. His name has become synonymous with "ouch" for me.
Exactly. When I heard Moore got cut, my thoughts were two things 1) Romo can't go down. 2) Johnson better be ready. Both of those ended up bad. I can't recall how many times I wanted to see Moore while Johnson was out there dickin' around. I hated that cut.
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Exactly. When I heard Moore got cut, my thoughts were two things 1) Romo can't go down. 2) Johnson better be ready. Both of those ended up bad. I can't recall how many times I wanted to see Moore while Johnson was out there dickin' around. I hated that cut.
Same. I hated to see Moore go. What basically has happened is that we had to struggle with Johnson/Bollinger last year and had to spend a 4th rounder (which was practically a 3rd since it was the first pick in the 4th) on a 3rd string QB who has less experience in our system now. Had Moore been here the whole time, he would be far along now.
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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Same. I hated to see Moore go. What basically has happened is that we had to struggle with Johnson/Bollinger last year and had to spend a 4th rounder (which was practically a 3rd since it was the first pick in the 4th) on a 3rd string QB who has less experience in our system now. Had Moore been here the whole time, he would be far along now.
And worst part is anyone with two eyeballs saw in Preseason

a) Moore had moxie and some talent.
b) Johnson was shot.

Another JJGM Special. Keep the Vet and cut the youngster simply because "he can't project talent."

Abram Elam anyone? Jereme Urban?
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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Yeah thats three HOF's for sure. Aikman anyone? Emmitt? D-Ware? Yeah I know in your world Jimmy and Parcells drafted every good player we have ever had, and Jerry only drafted the scrubs. Sorry it doesnt work that way....except in your (Im the best GM ever) world.
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:46 PM    (permalink
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And worst part is anyone with two eyeballs saw in Preseason

a) Moore had moxie and some talent.
b) Johnson was shot.

Another JJGM Special. Keep the Vet and cut the youngster simply because "he can't project talent."

Abram Elam anyone? Jereme Urban?
Ewe... Elam and Urban suck. Glad we have Sensabaugh now instead. If Urban made the team then Hurd or Austin wouldn't have. I like those options better.

Bob special: Keep Abram Elam and Jereme Urban!!! LOL.
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