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Old 08-24-2009, 12:09 AM    (permalink
wogitalia
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Why aren't there 5'10 offensive linemen? If the guy has the strength, technique and weight why don't we see a lot more of those guys? Scouts really do look for that.
In many ways this is a symptom of prototypes for positions. You get a lot of guys that never get a chance at a position because of their height or play other positions because of it but you can find an exception to pretty much every rule where height is a factor the question becomes more of is that exception truly special or is it just that they got the shot that others didnt.

I see it mostly with "undersized" PFs in the NBA, guys like Millsap, Landry, West and Diogu all come to mind, all have shown when they have gotten chances to be effective NBA players but all fell in the draft due to their height and still get limited minutes(West aside). Sure there are negatives to a shorter player, but all those guys can play.

Harrison with the Steelers is another example, guy is undersized but he just gets it done, I find it hard to believe that his height wasn't a major reason he had a hard time securing a spot, you consistently have those guys that overcome it, you wonder how many more could if there wasn't such a fascination on height in the pro leagues.

Another note is that people seem to focus on the advantages of height and disadvantages of a lack of height with no real consideration of the opposite side, short guys find it easier to get low, are "naturally" quicker and more agile, have lower centers of gravity, are less of a target when getting hit and in this day and age are different to what people are used to facing. You never hear that flip side of the equation and I certainly get the feeling with the way the game is changing(less contact, more speed) that we are going to see more and more undersized guys excel.
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:26 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wogitalia View Post
In many ways this is a symptom of prototypes for positions. You get a lot of guys that never get a chance at a position because of their height or play other positions because of it but you can find an exception to pretty much every rule where height is a factor the question becomes more of is that exception truly special or is it just that they got the shot that others didnt.

I see it mostly with "undersized" PFs in the NBA, guys like Millsap, Landry, West and Diogu all come to mind, all have shown when they have gotten chances to be effective NBA players but all fell in the draft due to their height and still get limited minutes(West aside). Sure there are negatives to a shorter player, but all those guys can play.

Harrison with the Steelers is another example, guy is undersized but he just gets it done, I find it hard to believe that his height wasn't a major reason he had a hard time securing a spot, you consistently have those guys that overcome it, you wonder how many more could if there wasn't such a fascination on height in the pro leagues.

Another note is that people seem to focus on the advantages of height and disadvantages of a lack of height with no real consideration of the opposite side, short guys find it easier to get low, are "naturally" quicker and more agile, have lower centers of gravity, are less of a target when getting hit and in this day and age are different to what people are used to facing. You never hear that flip side of the equation and I certainly get the feeling with the way the game is changing(less contact, more speed) that we are going to see more and more undersized guys excel.
Agree with this entirely + rep
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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Yup Troy Smith is showing tonight what I was saying earlier in this thread. His accuracy is just horrific. Smith is not a potential starting QB in this league. He could develop into a top notch backup who can come in for trick plays but he isn't a future starter.
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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God bless you, Sal. **** Troy Smith.
lol
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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If that's the case scouts wouldn't make it an issue. There would be a physical attributes section, or statements like " he has great size as a good" or prototypical size. If that's the case then why hasn't someone 6 or shorter been drafting high on a consistent basis.

Just think of it this way, your system would have to be very limited, and you'd need a lot of sprint out, roll out, protections and plays. Could it work? Yeah, but it's just a hard thing in my opinion.

Why aren't there 5'10 offensive linemen? If the guy has the strength, technique and weight why don't we see a lot more of those guys? Scouts really do look for that.
Nick Cole (aka Fire hydrant) poops on you head for such statements. lol

Once again though, exception to the rule.

I don't think height is as big of an issue as some guys believe, as you can make up for lack of height or weight with how you play and technique, but it is something to be addressed. If you have those disadvantages and don't compensate for it with how you play or your technique, then it is an issue, and a major one. But there are instances where people without ideal measurables have the right talent, style and work ethic, as well as understanding of their position to make it work. But those instances are rare. They can happen, and I don't like to downgrade guys too much because of size issues because of it. It is defintely something that is important, though not as big of an issue as some suggest.
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:52 PM    (permalink
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I hate OSU and I hated Troy Smith, until I saw a Baltimore preseason game the other week. I was thoroughly impressed with his pocket presence and passing ability.
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Old 08-31-2009, 08:24 AM    (permalink
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I don't know why people don't think Troy Smith can't be an effective starter in the league.
No one said pro bowler, just a good solid QB in the league.
If he hadn't gotten hurt last year, he would have opened the season as the Ravens starting QB.

Joe Thiesmann, Jim McMahon, Tarkenton were great pros and were in that 6' to 6'1 range.

Troy has superior mobility, a big arm, he's composed, and a natural leader.

IMO the difference the between 6' and 6'2 for QBs is not that great if you can play.
Most Qbs need the ability to throw through lanes between the blocks of Olineman anyway. It's just that for shorter QBs this is prerequisite not an option.

I know when the Skins played B'more in pre, Troy Smith at the time looked better than any QB the Skins currently had on the roster.

I think once you see him play, you can't help but come away impressed with the guy's ability and realize he has some upside in the pros beyond a career backup.
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Old 09-05-2009, 07:02 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
I don't know why people don't think Troy Smith can't be an effective starter in the league.
No one said pro bowler, just a good solid QB in the league.
If he hadn't gotten hurt last year, he would have opened the season as the Ravens starting QB.

Joe Thiesmann, Jim McMahon, Tarkenton were great pros and were in that 6' to 6'1 range.

Troy has superior mobility, a big arm, he's composed, and a natural leader.
Those QBs played in a different era. Players were smaller. Tarkenton's Hall of Fame left tackle, Ron Yary, weighed 255 lbs.

As for Smith having superior mobility, I don't think you understand the athletic ability of the players you listed. Fran Tarkenton is the 4th leading rusher among QBs. Randall Cunningham, Steve Young, Michael Vick, and then Fran Tarkenton. Joe Theismann was originally signed as a punt returner.

Quote:
IMO the difference the between 6' and 6'2 for QBs is not that great if you can play.
Most Qbs need the ability to throw through lanes between the blocks of Olineman anyway. It's just that for shorter QBs this is prerequisite not an option.

I know when the Skins played B'more in pre, Troy Smith at the time looked better than any QB the Skins currently had on the roster.

I think once you see him play, you can't help but come away impressed with the guy's ability and realize he has some upside in the pros beyond a career backup.

The reason that height is looked at for QBs is because it usually correllates directly with several other important aspects of the position. A taller QB can see the field better. Height also correllates to arm length, which is key to an efficient release point. Given the same throwing mechanics, a two inch difference in height can correllate to around a 5 inch difference in the release point, because not only is the shoulder height higher, but has a longer arm too. A longer arm, given equivilent mechanics, will throw the ball faster and farther than a shorter arm.

Now, all of this adds up to very little in the grand scheme of things, but you can bet that NFL teams are scrutinizing every single thing that might affect the quality of performance at their QB position.

Troy Smith has looked mediocre in his limited playing time. However, he has looked better than some of the QBs who currently hold starting jobs. But this is the nature of the NFL. At any given position the top 7 or so backups in the league are probably better than the 5 worst starters in their position. Troy Smith in a starting position would probably be a little worse than the kyle orton's, but not as bad as the Dan Orlovsky's of the league.
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Old 09-05-2009, 07:53 AM    (permalink
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Offensive player heights:

__________QB___RB___FB___WR___TE___T____G___C
1970-1975 74.2 72.3 - 72.8 75.2 76.7 75.0 75.0
1976-1981 74.5 71.8 75.0 72.0 75.8 77.1 75.5 75.2
1982-1986 74.7 71.3 73.5 71.9 75.6 77.4 75.8 75.5
1988-1993 75.0 71.2 72.0 71.6 75.5 77.6 76.0 75.5
1994-2000 74.7 71.1 72.6 72.2 75.9 77.5 75.9 75.0
2001-2006 75.0 70.5 72.7 72.7 76.1 77.5 75.8 75.3

Offensive Player Weight:

__________QB___RB___FB___WR___TE___T____G___C
1970-1975 204.4 208.2 - 190.6 227.3 259.1 253.1 247.6
1976-1981 203.2 207.4 229.0 186.4 232.9 269.2 261.6 253.8
1982-1986 205.1 209.6 232.7 185.1 236.6 281.1 275.2 271.2
1988-1993 215.6 214.4 234.3 187.5 248.7 300.7 295.9 287.2
1994-2000 219.2 218.3 245.4 193.8 255.2 313.9 308.8 291.6
2001-2006 223.3 217.4 248.2 199.1 256.3 317.5 314.7 293.0

Defensive players and kicker height:

___________DE__DT___NT___LB___DB___P____K
1970-1975 76.3 76.3 74.0 74.2 72.3 73.5 71.2
1976-1981 76.4 76.0 75.1 74.1 72.0 72.8 71.1
1982-1986 76.3 75.5 75.5 74.3 71.7 73.1 70.7
1988-1993 76.3 75.5 74.3 74.0 71.4 73.8 71.8
1994-2000 76.1 75.2 74.1 73.7 71.4 73.5 72.2
2001-2006 75.8 74.9 75.5 73.6 71.6 73.8 72.8

Defensive players and kicker's weights:

___________DE__DT___NT___LB___DB___P____K
1970-1975 249.5 256.9 251.3 226.2 188.8 198.6 191.0
1976-1981 254.9 260.5 258.8 227.0 189.0 195.7 183.0
1982-1986 265.6 269.7 271.0 232.3 190.2 199.0 183.5
1988-1993 273.6 290.3 283.8 238.7 192.7 209.9 193.1
1994-2000 277.6 299.7 289.7 240.8 195.7 209.4 198.9
2001-2006 273.3 304.6 306.3 238.5 197.1 212.0 202.0

from profootballreference.com

that said:

make your own conclusions. defensive ends have gotten shorter, defensive tackles have gotten shorter...
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Old 09-05-2009, 09:04 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awfullyquiet View Post
Offensive player heights:

__________QB___RB___FB___WR___TE___T____G___C
1970-1975 74.2 72.3 - 72.8 75.2 76.7 75.0 75.0
1976-1981 74.5 71.8 75.0 72.0 75.8 77.1 75.5 75.2
1982-1986 74.7 71.3 73.5 71.9 75.6 77.4 75.8 75.5
1988-1993 75.0 71.2 72.0 71.6 75.5 77.6 76.0 75.5
1994-2000 74.7 71.1 72.6 72.2 75.9 77.5 75.9 75.0
2001-2006 75.0 70.5 72.7 72.7 76.1 77.5 75.8 75.3

Offensive Player Weight:

__________QB___RB___FB___WR___TE___T____G___C
1970-1975 204.4 208.2 - 190.6 227.3 259.1 253.1 247.6
1976-1981 203.2 207.4 229.0 186.4 232.9 269.2 261.6 253.8
1982-1986 205.1 209.6 232.7 185.1 236.6 281.1 275.2 271.2
1988-1993 215.6 214.4 234.3 187.5 248.7 300.7 295.9 287.2
1994-2000 219.2 218.3 245.4 193.8 255.2 313.9 308.8 291.6
2001-2006 223.3 217.4 248.2 199.1 256.3 317.5 314.7 293.0

Defensive players and kicker height:

___________DE__DT___NT___LB___DB___P____K
1970-1975 76.3 76.3 74.0 74.2 72.3 73.5 71.2
1976-1981 76.4 76.0 75.1 74.1 72.0 72.8 71.1
1982-1986 76.3 75.5 75.5 74.3 71.7 73.1 70.7
1988-1993 76.3 75.5 74.3 74.0 71.4 73.8 71.8
1994-2000 76.1 75.2 74.1 73.7 71.4 73.5 72.2
2001-2006 75.8 74.9 75.5 73.6 71.6 73.8 72.8

Defensive players and kicker's weights:

___________DE__DT___NT___LB___DB___P____K
1970-1975 249.5 256.9 251.3 226.2 188.8 198.6 191.0
1976-1981 254.9 260.5 258.8 227.0 189.0 195.7 183.0
1982-1986 265.6 269.7 271.0 232.3 190.2 199.0 183.5
1988-1993 273.6 290.3 283.8 238.7 192.7 209.9 193.1
1994-2000 277.6 299.7 289.7 240.8 195.7 209.4 198.9
2001-2006 273.3 304.6 306.3 238.5 197.1 212.0 202.0

from profootballreference.com

that said:

make your own conclusions. defensive ends have gotten shorter, defensive tackles have gotten shorter...

And Quarterbacks have gotten taller. Things are pushing more towards extremes. Quarterbacks are getting taller and heavier because that's what suits the position, while running backs are getting shorter and heavier. Offensive Linemen grew taller and heavier.

Also, those numbers have every tom, dick, and harry who slithered into the nfl and bounced around as a third stringer, which includes a lot of people who possesed good game skills, but lacked a decent body type for their position. What people look for is performance at the top. People seek to emulate the succesful. People are looking for the next Peyton Manning, not the next DJ Shockley. So let's look at succesful QBs.

The average height of a pro bowl QB in 2007 was 75.6". In 1985, when Jim McMahon went to his only pro bowl, the average height of Pro Bowl QBs was 74.8". In 1983, when Joe Theismann went to the pro bowl, the average height of pro bowl QBs was 74.6". In 1976, when Fran Tarkenton went to his final pro bowl, the average height was 74". In 1964, when Tarkenton went to his first pro bowl, the average height was 72.8".

Now, there are always going to be exceptions. In 2007, Jeff Garcia, at 73", was voted to the pro bowl. In 1964, the 75" Frank Ryan went to the pro bowl. But the exceptions are just that, exceptions. While there were tall QBs in the past, and there are shorter QBs finding success in the present, the number of the latter has declined with respect to time, and there are reasons for that.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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Did we really need two pages to come to the conclusion that Troy Smith is nothing more than mediocre and will never be an effective starter in this league? I've watched him every time he has stepped on the field, it's not happening. Career backup.

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Old 09-06-2009, 08:09 AM    (permalink
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Notice the height of OTs in the league from 1976 to 2006, as posted by awfullyquiet. They've been fairly consistent, 6'4.

IMO, this is the determining factor for whether a smaller QB will be successful in the pros, can he still see down the field and pass threw lanes behind his Oline.

If a 6 foot QB in 1976 could play behind an Oline that averaged 6'4 in height, there's no reason to believe that same player couldn't be successful today.

Smith's height isn't the limiting factor as to whether he can be a credible NFL starter or not. It's all about getting reps and his talent level.

His actual height is far down on the list of negatives. 6 feet is still tall enough to make it in the NFL at QB.

But I'm sure people were saying similar things about Brees after his first couple of years in the league too, among other things.
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Old 09-06-2009, 09:27 AM    (permalink
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'6 foot' is the key measurement there... Yes. fun, i'm with you 100% on the size of the tackles... but also, remember the size of the DE's and DT's too.

BUT. on the same token, the game has changed... Passing has changed tremendously...

the real key is the speed of the DEs and LBs and their ability to contain passers who go well to the outside... which, was one of tarkingtons strong points... The game has sped up where you don't get the luxuries that tarkington had. your ability to get run down while scrambling increases the faster LB's and DE's get. In order to survive, unless you are the most talented pure passer in the league (like brees)...

Honestly, I believe Smith compares better to Mike Vick than Doug Flutie or Drew Brees.

Mike Vick is barely 6'1... and how long did he last as a starting qb, because, as I was saying, he was quick enough to pull outside, roll out, and deliver 'passes' (or bullets if you will) from the outside... Drew Brees uses his exceptional vision, exceptional release, and great presence to deliver the ball.

In order to survive in this league, you can't just be all measurables, but you have to have your niche ability to survive. WR's are a prime example of how this works, if you're can create separation and have good hands you're fine, if you are fast and can create good separation. you're in. if you have great jumping ability and can run routes, you're in... if you don't have the height, you probably need to make up for it in other ways, and this is where i begin to doubt Troy and believe he'll end up closer to a poor man's vick than a doug flutie... Sure, he's got a great arm. But it's not that great. Vick is the bigger, better runner. He had the bigger arm. In order for troy to succeed, he, in my mind would have to prove he has the ability to throw better, have better vision, accuracy, not just power, but enough power to throw across field. He needs to be faster, more elusive, and be able to throw first, run second.

And this is where I start to doubt his talent to survive. He's not that fast, or elusive, his power is good, his accuracy isn't as good once you get past 15 yards.... sound familiar? vick?... If he's 'as good' as vick... that's not a good thing, because, FWIW, Vick was never a good quarterback in the NFL. A good player, sure, i'll give you that, but a quarterback? notsomuch... I think it'll be very hard for him to ever progress past Vick without addressing his accuracy.

This is a very common phenomena in the NFL, passers who are great athletes who never really have the ability to fix their accuracy and become better passers. See: Tavaris Jackson, Seneca Wallace, and to a lesser extent: Kordell Stewart, Vince Young, Alex Smith, Daunte Culpepper... In order for Smith to make the transition to the NFL, he has to fix his accuracy... I don't believe the change will happen, the statistics of QB's in the last 10 years who've made the change are relatively low (solving their accuracy issues: rex grossman, jp losman, joey harrington, couch, Akili Smith... the list goes on...)

That said. I vote no confidence in Troy Smith.

Really though, accuracy is overrated, and for the most part, it seems more difficult to learn control, much akin to how flamethrowers work in baseball... but the difference is, you don't have 90 pitches to work with, you have 30... and each pass can be do-or-die... This is why I love giving pennington credit, for not having a jamarcus russell like arm, but still able to put the ball where he wants it... over 66% completion rate... and how does that make the team work? a very surprising 11-5, which, as much as it's a resurgent defense, it's completing passes, not having cleo lemon, good 3rd down conversion rates... This is what makes a quarterback, not measurables, not intangibles, just ability to put the biscuit in the basket and make drives happen.
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Old 09-06-2009, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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I don't know why you're comparing Vick to Troy. If Vick couldn't run 4.3, he never would have been a 1/1 pick. He probably wouldn't have been a starter in the league at all.
Troy Smith is more advanced as a passer than Vick, sees the entire field better, and anticpates routes opening up better than Vick ever did.

If Vick didn't have ALge Crumpler during his time in Atlanta, I think more of his deficiencies as a passer would have been exposed.

Troy Smith IMO is a dropback guy who can run. He's not really a scrambling QB with minimal passing skills.

I think Troy Smith, given the opportunity, could be a decent starter in the league without having to be the next Mike Vick or Drew Brees.

I see a QB with enough football savvy and intangibles to consistently get the job done under center.

I get that you may not believe Troy Smith is a very good NFL QB prospect, although there's not much to judge him by except for the preseason, (however in an open battle in TC last year with B'more, he was named the starter over Flacco and Boller).

All I'm really arguing is whether or not Troy Smith is or isn't a future starter in the NFL, it won't be because he's only six feet tall.

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Old 09-06-2009, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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People seem to be forgetting that it usually takes 3 for a quarterback to develop and it's only been recently over the whole course of professional football history that quarterbacks have started becoming competitive with less experience.

Matt Ryan and Roethlisberger are exceptions, Aaron Rogers is more of the standard.

Troy Smith has flashed some potential, more than 90% of the guys drafted after the middle of the second round ever do imo. He's only entering his third year in the NFL. Another year under Cameron's tutelage and he could very well compete in a different city.

This might sound like a homer argument, but put him behind Carolina's line with the Carolina run game under Scherer who can develop QBs in a year's time after Cameron has worked with him some more and it's hard to see him being worse than 60% with just over 3200 yards 15 and 12 TDs like Delhomme through last year.

Troy Smith isn't ready yet, and I don't think anyone is saying he necessarily is, but I think he can develop to that stage so long as he's handled properly and goes to a team with the support pieces in place.
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Old 09-06-2009, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Notice the height of OTs in the league from 1976 to 2006, as posted by awfullyquiet. They've been fairly consistent, 6'4.

IMO, this is the determining factor for whether a smaller QB will be successful in the pros, can he still see down the field and pass threw lanes behind his Oline.

If a 6 foot QB in 1976 could play behind an Oline that averaged 6'4 in height, there's no reason to believe that same player couldn't be successful today.
77.5" =/= 6'4"

Quote:
Smith's height isn't the limiting factor as to whether he can be a credible NFL starter or not. It's all about getting reps and his talent level.

His actual height is far down on the list of negatives. 6 feet is still tall enough to make it in the NFL at QB.

But I'm sure people were saying similar things about Brees after his first couple of years in the league too, among other things.
Brees is an exception in many ways. Not only is he a successful QB at 6', he was also one of the few QBs to succeed despite weak play his first three years starting. Brees did a bad enough job in his first three year starting in San Diego that the Chargers spent the first overall pick drafting his replacement. Most QBs don't get another serious shot at starting after something like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
People seem to be forgetting that it usually takes 3 for a quarterback to develop and it's only been recently over the whole course of professional football history that quarterbacks have started becoming competitive with less experience.
Typically, it takes three seasons of starting experience for a QB to mature completely. If you're not showing great improvement by your second season, people start grumbling. If you aren't a solid starter by your third season, they're searching for your replacement.
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