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Old 09-12-2009, 04:24 PM    (permalink
Shiver
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I think there needs to be more moderation in how we view Ben. He isn't John Elway, but he isn't Trent Dilfer either.
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Old 09-12-2009, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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He is a Top 5 QB in the league though. Maybe not based purely on talent, but he gets the job done. Most 4th quarter/OT winning drives since he started? Yes. 2 Super Bowl rings, and without him we wouldn't have sniffed getting to those Super Bowls. I'm not sure exactly how you want to judge QBs, but if winning games and winning them often times at the end of games (i.e. Super Bowl last year,) is what you want in a QB, then Ben is it. You can have your QB that puts up gaudy numbers but won't win the big games, I'll take Ben.
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Old 09-12-2009, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBond93 View Post
He is a Top 5 QB in the league though. Maybe not based purely on talent, but he gets the job done. Most 4th quarter/OT winning drives since he started? Yes. 2 Super Bowl rings, and without him we wouldn't have sniffed getting to those Super Bowls. I'm not sure exactly how you want to judge QBs, but if winning games and winning them often times at the end of games (i.e. Super Bowl last year,) is what you want in a QB, then Ben is it. You can have your QB that puts up gaudy numbers but won't win the big games, I'll take Ben.
I tend to agree, Ben isn't perfect, but you can't argue with the results. Sure the Steelers have had quality teams around him in that time, but he's been a HUGE part of what the Steelers were able to do. There's not many QB's who'd have been able to do what he did in the SB especially.
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Old 09-12-2009, 08:46 PM    (permalink
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Top 5 in accomplishments for sure, but if I was starting a team he would be more in the 8-10 range.
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Old 09-12-2009, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Top 5 in accomplishments for sure, but if I was starting a team he would be more in the 8-10 range.
I'd like to hear who. I think starting a team, Ben may be my 3rd or 4th choice after the obvious. Ben's style just works well with so many different players, and can mask some weaknesses with the rest of the offense. If you want to take Rivers or Cutler or Rodgers, be my guest, but I'll take Ben.
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Old 09-12-2009, 09:20 PM    (permalink
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The No Brainers:

Tom Brady

Peyton Manning

Drew Brees

Young guys who have already shown elite ability:

Philip Rivers - Better pure passer and he has amazing intangibles, remember him willing them into the AFCCG and having them play NE hard with a partially torn ACL. People don't realize that he led the NFL in passer rating and touchdowns last year. It is now his team, not LaDainian's.

Aaron Rodgers - This guy has it all. There was no QB who surprised me more than him last year. In his first full year he was a top-3 QB, and with the situation he has he will only continue to improve. Rodgers to Jennings is going to be a great tandem for years to come.

And two guys who have just begun to show greatness:


Matt Ryan - The next "cerebral" QB. His completion percentage as a rookie is startling and he already reads defenses so fast that he is rarely sacked. His rookie year is like a hybrid of Marino and Manning.

Joe Flacco - Has the livest arm I have ever seen. If he had legitimate weapons he would be a force. His pocket presence is really impressive and he will attack a defense vertically in some places that I have never seen a QB able to go after.

My biggest problem with Ben is that he takes way too many sacks and throws way too many interceptions. He hurts his team a lot by doing his crazy running around thing. He makes more plays than not, but still I would rather have a QB who will pick apart a defense and not make any boneheaded plays. He isn't even consistent on a yearly basis, let alone a game by game basis.
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Old 09-12-2009, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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Ben's last three seasons:

17 touchdowns/15 Interceptions
32 touchdowns/11 Interceptions
18 touchdowns/23 interceptions

It is maddening for a QB to be as inconsistent as this. I expect year to year efficiency from a "top-5" QB.
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Old 09-12-2009, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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Brady
Manning
Breesus
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Cutler

For established Qbs
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Old 09-12-2009, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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Brady
Manning
Breesus
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Cutler

For established Qbs
I'd buy that.
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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hey all of the Ben haters and the ones that does not want to give him his cred. there is no way that you can sit and say that Ben does not elevate a team as much as Brady or Manning or any other QB. you can say that he has always had good teams around him, but what SB champ does not have a good team around them...did/does Brady have a good team around him...yes....did Montana have a good team around him....yes....did Bradshaw have a good team around him....yes....did Elway have a good team around him....yes....did troy Aikman have a good team around him....yes....Kurt Warrner.....yes.....and that is just multiple SB winners, not counting the Jim Kelly's that lost SB's and they had great teams around them also and all of these teams had a better OL and running games, which helps a QB more then anything else could...so when you say that Ben had/has a good team around him, who don't...plus Pittsburgh had/has/and always will have a good team so why did they not win SB's with the likes of Slash, Tomczak, O'donnell, Miller, Brister, Maddox, and then Ben comes along and has won 2 in 5 years.....so do not act like Ben is not one of the best QB's in the NFL. you also talk about all of those other QB's ahead of him well none of them besides Brady and Manning are even close to Dan Marino and he did not win a SB so those that and sling the pig skin and put up number, that does not make them a better QB....also Bradshaw was the 1st and 1 of only 2 QB's to win 4 SB's and he threw INT's all of the time but he made some of the best plays ever also and that is how Ben is, he makes the big time throws in the big time games and at the right time and thats what makes you a great QB not the nick picking other stuff....as for numbers and stats...well Ben has won more games then ANYBODY to ever play this game in his 1st 5 years (and that includes the season where he just about died and had emergency surgery), was the youngest to win a SB, won more games as a rookie then ANYBODY else in the history of the game, and set a record for the most wins in a row EVER, rookie or not.......so i think bottom line is you have winners and stat accumulators and Ben is one of the top 3 winners in the NFL.
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Ben's last three seasons:

17 touchdowns/15 Interceptions
32 touchdowns/11 Interceptions
18 touchdowns/23 interceptions

It is maddening for a QB to be as inconsistent as this. I expect year to year efficiency from a "top-5" QB.
That's what I'm saying, stats don't matter in what I'm talking about. I say wins, and he wins.

And the lists above are fine, only one I find laughable is Flacco. At this point, I can't see one reason to take him over Ben.
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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That's what I'm saying, stats don't matter in what I'm talking about. I say wins, and he wins.

And the lists above are fine, only one I find laughable is Flacco. At this point, I can't see one reason to take him over Ben.
he's got a unibrow.

but this is how it is, guys who win and don't put up big stats will get hated on because they're not "the reason" their teams win. I think Big Ben is an idiot and not that good of a QB, but you gotta respect his "it" factor to come up huge when he needs to and not **** up in the huge games
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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Well I am wacko for Flacco. lol But seriously if I was starting a team right now Flacco would be on my short list. He isn't good now, but the premise of the list promotes some projection/.

Wins is the worst statistic to use when judging an individual player in a game where there are 22 starters + special teams. In basketball I could buy it, but not in the NFL, not even with the QB position.
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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what upsets me is that someone like Vick comes in and has worse stats then Ben but because he ran around and made something happen and he helped his team win then he is put on a pedestal and everyone talks about how great of a QB he is and how he helped his team win but when someone like Ben does it then he gets criticized and no one wants to say he is a great QB and QB's like Vick does not put up great eye-popping numbers either....so why can Ben not get his cred
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:10 PM    (permalink
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Vick was never as good as Roethlisberger is now. You cannot find anyone who would say otherwise. Your use of "weasel words" is quite impressive though.
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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Well I am wacko for Flacco. lol

Wins is the worst statistic to use when judging an individual player in a game where there are 22 starters + special teams. In basketball I could buy it, but not in the NFL, not even with the QB position.
so are you saying that nothing Ben has ever done has helped his team win a game?
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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Well I am wacko for Flacco. lol But seriously if I was starting a team right now Flacco would be on my short list. He isn't good now, but the premise of the list promotes some projection/.

Wins is the worst statistic to use when judging an individual player in a game where there are 22 starters + special teams. In basketball I could buy it, but not in the NFL, not even with the QB position.
Perhaps, but 20 game winning drives in 6 seasons (most in that time, 3 more than Peyton Manning,) is on the QB.
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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Absolutely not. He is a very, very good QB. He has made big time plays to win games. But using the "he wins" argument is a little weak when that is your trump card. "All other arguments are invalidated because 'he wins.'"
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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Perhaps, but 20 game winning drives in 6 seasons (most in that time, 3 more than Peyton Manning,) is on the QB.
Still not feeling that type of stat, didn't like it for John Elway, and I didn't like it for one of my own guys (Aaron Brooks).

Peyton Manning probably buried a few teams that Roethlisberger would let hang around and need to lead a game winning drive against...

Not saying he isn't absolutely one of the best at leading a late drive, but I think the true greats rarely let the team get into that situation.
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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I never said all other arguments are invalidated. I never said this was my trump card. I'm merely stating my opinion.
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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Alright, cool. I guess I am venting vs the whole argument, not just in this instance but when it is used by everyone whose QB isn't Brady, Manning and Brees. Nothing personal against you JBond.
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Old 09-13-2009, 12:24 AM    (permalink
Bengalsrocket
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
Peyton Manning probably buried a few teams that Roethlisberger would let hang around and need to lead a game winning drive against...
This. I respect 4th quarter comebacks just as much as the next guy, but it's not like he's never lost a game either. Like Saints-Tigers said, and not just Peyton Manning, but a lot of the "elite" QB's buried teams before there was ever a chance for a 4th quarter comeback.

It's a good stat (I'm not a stat hater), and should definitely be in the conversation when ranking Ben against other QB's. But it's not the most important stat, and I don't think it detracts from other QB's when they lack 4th quarter come backs.

I'll say again, even though it's not that interesting the read the comments of someone who holds a moderate position on the subject, but Ben is a unique QB. What he does is certainly not "by the book", but it does work (otherwise he wouldn't have a job :P) and no one can argue that the Steelers will be looking to replace him anytime soon.

The team doesn't win despite him, they win because of him. But they also win because of the other 52 guys on the team :P. I would even go as far as to say that he has the most individual value on the team, I just don't think it's by that much.
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:33 AM    (permalink
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I still hate Ben, but at the same time, he is a great QB that can manage a game. He is going to be so good this year. The last three seasons he hasn't had much to throw to...Now he has a star in Holmes. I love Big Ben's attitude towards the game. This guy is going to play til he is 40.
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Old 09-13-2009, 09:22 AM    (permalink
Shane P. Hallam
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I still hate Ben, but at the same time, he is a great QB that can manage a game. He is going to be so good this year. The last three seasons he hasn't had much to throw to...Now he has a star in Holmes. I love Big Ben's attitude towards the game. This guy is going to play til he is 40.
With his playing style, he will get hit way to much for that to happen.
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