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Old 12-10-2009, 09:03 AM    (permalink
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Whichever punter first discovered how to get the ball to bounce backwards did, not sure who excatly it was. Could have been a coach that tought of it, lots of changes were done by coaches who used a player to execute it.

Was Vrabel the first defensive player to play TE and catch passes, not just block?
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brent View Post
he is the reason they banned head tackling. if you ever see a film of his head tackling, you'll be impressed with how effective it is, and then say to yourself, "he's going to break someone's neck doing that."
One could actually argue that Lane was probably the most terrifying defensive back in NFL history before the league stopped that method of tackling. Say what you will about Lott or Tatum, but Lane was just brutal.
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bucs_Rule View Post
Whichever punter first discovered how to get the ball to bounce backwards did, not sure who excatly it was. Could have been a coach that tought of it, lots of changes were done by coaches who used a player to execute it.

Was Vrabel the first defensive player to play TE and catch passes, not just block?
The Australian, Darren Bennett (punter originally for the Chargers) in the 90s is usually credited for that style of punt (it is a standard kick in Australian football). That dude was soft for an Australian footballer, but tough for a punter (he has knocked a punt returner out cold in his rookie season).
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Old 12-10-2009, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Welllllll.

Sid Luckman was pretty much the first QB to be a real passer. That ought to get a spot. Before him, QBs did a lot of blocking.

Mike Ditka changed TE from a block-only position to what it is today.

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Old 12-10-2009, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
The Australian, Darren Bennett (punter originally for the Chargers) in the 90s is usually credited for that style of punt (it is a standard kick in Australian football). That dude was soft for an Australian footballer, but tough for a punter (he has knocked a punt returner out cold in his rookie season).
Yeah that's pretty much spot on. Bennett generally gets the credit for the "Drop Punt" style, its easier to control and obviously the fact that it generally sits up on the first couple of bounces helps pin. The other Aussie punters in the league at the moment are all outstanding at it in Ben Graham, Sav Rocca and Matt McBriar. I dare say that Anthony Rocca will join his big brother in the league somewhere next year, probably even has a bigger leg than Sav.
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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I think a lot of us are confusing great players with guys who changed the game.

Just bc you were a great player, doesn't mean you changed the game. And just because you changed the game, it doesn't necessarily mean you were a great player.

Theres only a handful of guys who were both. You can probably count them on 1 hand. And probably the only guy from the 80s up that qualifies on that hand is LT if you want to get down to it.

We can maybe name some other guys, but at that point, we're reaching.

The only 2 other guys from the 80s up I can think of are Shannon Sharpe and Ronnie Lott, but again, those are shakey choices.
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Old 12-11-2009, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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good thread. I think Kellen Winslow Sr would be the Tight End to revolutionize the modern game by getting more of a pass catcher/ non blocker into the position. Shannon Sharpe came way later
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Old 12-11-2009, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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good thread. I think Kellen Winslow Sr would be the Tight End to revolutionize the modern game by getting more of a pass catcher/ non blocker into the position. Shannon Sharpe came way later
You have to throw Ditka a bunch of credit but it's true that KW Sr. was the first time they threw a ridiculous athlete out there basically just to go down the field and catch balls all the time.
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Old 12-11-2009, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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sammy baugh and the forward pass
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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sammy baugh and the forward pass
I hear this often, but I'm usually hesitant to give him too much credit for this.


I mean come on....its the forward pass. Somebody was bound to figure it out.
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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One could actually argue that Lane was probably the most terrifying defensive back in NFL history before the league stopped that method of tackling. Say what you will about Lott or Tatum, but Lane was just brutal.


They show some of it at two minutes. It was really brutal to watch.
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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/\ it really is surprising he didn't kill somebody with that.
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Old 12-11-2009, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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Why is there a Taylor Mays scouting clip on there from 3:41-3:53 ????
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Old 12-11-2009, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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I don't know if he's been mentioned yet, Jack Tatum. The most intimidating safety of all-time.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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I remember reading Kellen Winslow Jr was supposed to revolutionize the TE spot like his dad

here's the little write up

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...ers/44616.html

How could he had topped what past great TE's did. To me if he never messed his knees up he coulda had a similar impact to Shannon Sharpe.
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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THANK YOU.

As far as re-inventing the TE position, former 1980s Raider Todd Christensen was a dominant receiving TE who just didn't do it long enough to get HOF consideration. Still, he had 3 seasons with over 1000 yards, 2 90 plus catch seasons, a season with over 900 yards receiving and a couple 80 catch years.
Christensen was the first TE I ever knew of who put up WR numbers at the TE position.

Left Tackles are often compared to Pace because it's a modern reference that many can relate to, but he wasn't better than Ogden or a handful of left tackles that came before him.

Ray Lewis, because of his unreal range at ILB earlier in his career, is the best example I can think of a modern player who really doesn't have many historical peers.

If you truly study the game, see the film and talk to folks who saw some of the greats play in their prime, you begin to realize no matter how much the game has changed, it essentially has stayed the same.

And it's kind of ridiculous to argue that if it wasn't for Shannon Sharpe, there never would have been a Tony Gonzalez.
Former Oklahoma AA TE and Eagles alltime great Keith Jackson who entered the league a couple years before Sharpe, was the player Sharpe was often compared to in the 90s, except Jackson was bigger, 250#, and faster, 4.5 speed, than Shannon Sharpe.

BTW, this is the first time I've ever heard Marino described as a mobile QB. Great pocket presence and a wickedly quick release, but dude couldn't outrun his own shadow.

As for using stickum, Iamcanadian, the gloves that modern players use today are so 'tacky' they are able to replicate the effect of stickum back in the day.

The biggest difference in the modern NFL and the past is the de-emphasis on the importance of the running game and supremacy of the passing game.

It's so rare to see 4 or five RBs taken in the 1st round, but there used to be a time when it was common place as top RBs were viewed as elite talents necessary to win championships.
This is a good review but there is no denying that the game has changed considerably. Looking at the players is just a poor way of looking at change in the NFL, they do what their HC's tell them to do. If you want to look at change, there are 2 choices which in a way intermingle with each other.
1) Rule changes, this is always the main impetus for change as it involves every player affected by the rule change. If they outlaw bump and run past 5 yards, you are going to create a new emphasis on the type of CB coaches will prefer while CB's who could bump and run down the field will become a lessor factor in the game. etc. etc. etc. for every rule change that occurs.
2) HC's and sometimes OC's and DC's will change their player's style of play and the technique needed to play under the new rule change. Or if a HC creates a whole new offense or defense in the NFL, players will have to change their game to fit in. When HC's brought in the 3-4, it completely changed how we viewed LB's, DE, and DT's, when other HC's brought in the Cover 2 defense, again some positions were redefined, CB's, Safeties, LB's DLmen. Players rarely impact changes in the NFL, rules and new ideas by HC's do. In the old days when say Shula invented the zone defense, it was a major break from the past and created a whole different type of athlete needed to play their positions. Almost every defensive player's responsibilities became redefined.
Ditto for when Al Davis invented the bump and run in the old AFL and then brought it to the NFL when they merged. He used bump and run down the whole field until it was latter changed to only 5 yards.
I don't think the young people realize how much change has taken place in the NFL, did you know that there was a time that the rules were far more like rugby rules where our game developed from. Right through the 40's and even in the earlier 50's I believe, RB's could get up after they were tackled and keep running, they had to be completely tackled before the play stopped and totally unable to get up and run again.
NFL records are a complete joke, not only have the rules changed immensely, the playing surfaces and conditions are nowhere near what they played on in the 50's and 60's. We used to distinguish between a RB who could run in good weather and a RB who could play in the mud much like horse racing does today. Quite of few of the older games were played on surfaces containing a foot of mud with no drainage, a player when tackled could slide for 20 to 40 yards and be covered from head to foot with mud and still play.
Fans of each era love their own stars rightfully so, and think the records they set make their era's players better than the previous stars from other eras. They don't know how much the game has changed and they don't care. They just look at the numbers and think they know what they are talking about.
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Old 12-19-2009, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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I am not reading through 5 pages to see if this was brought up but:
Michael Irvin?
Reason for the push off rules the NFL has in place today
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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Let me make this perfectly clear, I am not calling Marino mobile. I am saying he was a true passing QB. He pushed past Fran Tarkenton's records for passing. (which have now been passed and passed again.)
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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Any1 got a comment for Kellen Winslow Jr ?

My post on him is the last post on page 4
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Old 12-20-2009, 07:33 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Any1 got a comment for Kellen Winslow Jr ?
Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda. Didn't change the game though.

I stand by that the last guy who changed the game was Darren Bennett with the "drop punt" kick. It wasn't some revolutionary change, but it was a new technique/skill that has modified the game ever so slightly by making punters who utilise it more effective at pinning other teams within the 20. He also was the guy who opened the door for Aussie Rules players to head over to the USA and give punting a go.
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