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Old 03-10-2009, 01:43 PM    (permalink
Tampa 2 4 life
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182 carries, 1,025 yards, 5.6 ypc, 2 td's 41 receptions, 384 receiving yards.

Yep, thats the very definition of mediocrity. I mean, it's not like he was 2/5ths of the #1 run game in the NFL or anything. He's nothing compared to Ernest Graham.

132 carries, 563, 4.3 ypc, 4 td's, 23 receptions, 174 receiving yards.


Championship.
If I was in a tandem with jacobs and Bradshaw I'd get 700 yards. Their O-Line is better than us, their Passing game is better than ours. You can't look at those particular stats in a vacuum.
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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If I was in a tandem with jacobs and Bradshaw I'd get 700 yards. Their O-Line is better than us, their Passing game is better than ours. You can't look at those particular stats in a vacuum.
You're right that I can't look at that in a vacuum, but how can you look at the only back in the NFL with a higher than 5.5 YPC (minimum 100 carries) and call that mediocre?
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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Ward is an ok #2 back, he's way overpaid though. Mostly he took advantage of Jacobs tiring the hell out of defenses.

I think you can get a guy like that off the street.
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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You're right that I can't look at that in a vacuum, but how can you look at the only back in the NFL with a higher than 5.5 YPC (minimum 100 carries) and call that mediocre?
Mostly he was used as the 3rd down back after Jacobs busted the hell out of defenses for 2 downs, does his ypc REALLY surprise you?
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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Mostly he was used as the 3rd down back after Jacobs busted the hell out of defenses for 2 downs, does his ypc REALLY surprise you?
Game 1 v. Washington Redskins


3-3-WAS 45 (6:40) (Shotgun) 34-D.Ward right end to WAS 40 for 5 yards (52-R.McIntosh).
3-1-WAS 6 (3:52) 34-D.Ward right tackle to WAS 7 for -1 yards (59-L.Fletcher).
2-10-NYG 32 (:11) 34-D.Ward left end to NYG 42 for 10 yards (52-R.McIntosh).
2-10-NYG 42 (14:55) 34-D.Ward left end to NYG 45 for 3 yards (37-R.Doughty, 52-R.McIntosh).
1-10-WAS 32 (13:31) 34-D.Ward right end to WAS 28 for 4 yards (52-R.McIntosh).
3-9-WAS 11 (11:07) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass incomplete short right to 34-D.Ward. NYG-69-R.Seubert was injured during the play.
2-4-WAS 40 (4:19) 34-D.Ward left tackle to WAS 34 for 6 yards (94-A.Montgomery, 59-L.Fletcher).
1-10-NYG 13 (4:34) 34-D.Ward left tackle to NYG 15 for 2 yards (55-J.Taylor, 37-R.Doughty).
2-8-NYG 15 (3:55) 34-D.Ward right guard to NYG 22 for 7 yards (52-R.McIntosh, 79-L.Alexander).
1-10-NYG 29 (2:30) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass short left to 34-D.Ward to NYG 37 for 8 yards (27-F.Smoot, 48-C.Horton). WAS-27-F.Smoot was injured during the play.
2-2-NYG 37 (2:10) 34-D.Ward up the middle to NYG 40 for 3 yards (37-R.Doughty, 53-M.Washington).
2-23-NYG 40 (13:58) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass short middle to 34-D.Ward to WAS 47 for 13 yards (52-R.McIntosh, 59-L.Fletcher).


Wanna tell me again how a thousand yard back was "primarily" used during third downs? Or ask me if his highest YPC in the league (minimum 100 carries) *really* surprises me?
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Who gives a **** about stats? Earnest Graham is a more impressive overall back. He will be our starter.
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Who gives a **** about stats? Earnest Graham is a more impressive overall back. He will be our starter.
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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If only our backs were able to get to the 2nd level like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Graham can make something out of nothing. If our blocking nets us more than nothing, Cadillac and Ward will see more touches.
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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Game 1 v. Washington Redskins


3-3-WAS 45 (6:40) (Shotgun) 34-D.Ward right end to WAS 40 for 5 yards (52-R.McIntosh).
3-1-WAS 6 (3:52) 34-D.Ward right tackle to WAS 7 for -1 yards (59-L.Fletcher).
2-10-NYG 32 (:11) 34-D.Ward left end to NYG 42 for 10 yards (52-R.McIntosh).
2-10-NYG 42 (14:55) 34-D.Ward left end to NYG 45 for 3 yards (37-R.Doughty, 52-R.McIntosh).
1-10-WAS 32 (13:31) 34-D.Ward right end to WAS 28 for 4 yards (52-R.McIntosh).
3-9-WAS 11 (11:07) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass incomplete short right to 34-D.Ward. NYG-69-R.Seubert was injured during the play.
2-4-WAS 40 (4:19) 34-D.Ward left tackle to WAS 34 for 6 yards (94-A.Montgomery, 59-L.Fletcher).
1-10-NYG 13 (4:34) 34-D.Ward left tackle to NYG 15 for 2 yards (55-J.Taylor, 37-R.Doughty).
2-8-NYG 15 (3:55) 34-D.Ward right guard to NYG 22 for 7 yards (52-R.McIntosh, 79-L.Alexander).
1-10-NYG 29 (2:30) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass short left to 34-D.Ward to NYG 37 for 8 yards (27-F.Smoot, 48-C.Horton). WAS-27-F.Smoot was injured during the play.
2-2-NYG 37 (2:10) 34-D.Ward up the middle to NYG 40 for 3 yards (37-R.Doughty, 53-M.Washington).
2-23-NYG 40 (13:58) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass short middle to 34-D.Ward to WAS 47 for 13 yards (52-R.McIntosh, 59-L.Fletcher).


Wanna tell me again how a thousand yard back was "primarily" used during third downs? Or ask me if his highest YPC in the league (minimum 100 carries) *really* surprises me?
I like how you use a random sampling of one game where he only gets 39 yards.
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Old 03-10-2009, 05:20 PM    (permalink
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I like how you use a random sampling of one game where he only gets 39 yards.
No, I was just too lazy to continue.
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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If I was in a tandem with jacobs and Bradshaw I'd get 700 yards. Their O-Line is better than us, their Passing game is better than ours. You can't look at those particular stats in a vacuum.

No, no it isn't.

The Giants ranked 18th in the NFL with an average of 198.6 yards per game.

The Bucs ranked 11th in the NFL with an average of 226.2 yards per game.


That kinda blows a hole in your argument that the Giants passing game opened up their run game THAT much more.... doesn't it?




You Graham/Cadillac homers are amusing. Those guys wouldn't be the primary ball carriers on at LEAST 24 other teams.... but Graham's completely untouchable on this roster, and Cadillac still has touches in him... Please. Cadillac is done.

Derrick Ward will have the most carries for us in 2009, and be the leading rusher on this team.


An added prediction..... Cadillac Williams will get cut before the start of the 2010 league season begins in March.

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Who gives a **** about stats? Earnest Graham is a more impressive overall back. He will be our starter.
etk, please tell me which part of Earnest Graham's game is better than Derrick Ward's.....
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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I like how you use a random sampling of one game where he only gets 39 yards.


But he still blew your point about Ward just being a 3rd down back out of the water. Ward is as much an everydown back as we have on the roster.
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:44 PM    (permalink
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etk, please tell me which part of Earnest Graham's game is better than Derrick Ward's.....
Every part except long speed.

But it's nice to see another self-hating Bucs fan flocking to the forums here. The grass is always greener on the other side, eh?
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Old 03-12-2009, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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But he still blew your point about Ward just being a 3rd down back out of the water. Ward is as much an everydown back as we have on the roster.
...What part of "please use more than one game where he was unsuccessful" do you not understand?
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Old 03-15-2009, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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...What part of "please use more than one game where he was unsuccessful" do you not understand?

The part where 47.8% or Derrick Ward's carries last year came on first down, and 87.9% of his carries last year came on first AND second down. How many 3rd down RB's in the league only have 11.5% of their carries actually ON third down?


Here's your link to the breakdown as well.

Saying Ward is just a third down RB is the sign of an ignorant SOB who really wasn't paying attention.



BTW.... that twice now in this thread I've proven your assessment's wrong.
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Every part except long speed.

But it's nice to see another self-hating Bucs fan flocking to the forums here. The grass is always greener on the other side, eh?

You're just wrong here, and I think you are flat out guessing about Derrick Ward.

I'll use the stats the last 2 seasons, as Graham played 25 games and Ward 24, and both had about the same involvement in their offenses.


Rushing
Graham - 354 carries, 1461 yards
Ward - 307 carries, 1627 yards

Receiving
Graham - 72 receptions, 498 yards
Ward - 67 receptions, 563 yards


This is about as honest an evaluation of both players as you'll get:

Earnest Graham - Runs hard and low and finishes his runs. Has decent, not great, vision..... but will wait for his blocks to develop and can get through the hole. Has good ability in pass protection, and can release and catch the outlet pass well. Offers versatility as a FB. Not very fast or elusive, and not a "homerun" threat. Jack-of-all-trades, but master of none.

Derrick Ward - Not exceptionally patient behind his blocks, but cuts very well into and explodes through the hole. Keeps low and not afraid to finish runs. Will deliver a blow and keep his legs moving. Does not have that "make-you-miss" ability when in one-on-one situations, and will opt for a physical or speed approach instead. Good pass catching ability. Has been injured, and will get nicked up. Can handle the bull rush in pass protection, but struggles with well versed pass rushers.



And they are about equal, as I first stated. I think the premise of having them both, is to interchange them, splitting carries/touches and prolonging both their careers by keeping them fresher because they are so similar.


Self-hating? No. I'm a realist.
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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You're just wrong here, and I think you are flat out guessing about Derrick Ward.

I'll use the stats the last 2 seasons, as Graham played 25 games and Ward 24, and both had about the same involvement in their offenses.


Rushing
Graham - 354 carries, 1461 yards
Ward - 307 carries, 1627 yards

Receiving
Graham - 72 receptions, 498 yards
Ward - 67 receptions, 563 yards


This is about as honest an evaluation of both players as you'll get:

Earnest Graham - Runs hard and low and finishes his runs. Has decent, not great, vision..... but will wait for his blocks to develop and can get through the hole. Has good ability in pass protection, and can release and catch the outlet pass well. Offers versatility as a FB. Not very fast or elusive, and not a "homerun" threat. Jack-of-all-trades, but master of none.

Derrick Ward - Not exceptionally patient behind his blocks, but cuts very well into and explodes through the hole. Keeps low and not afraid to finish runs. Will deliver a blow and keep his legs moving. Does not have that "make-you-miss" ability when in one-on-one situations, and will opt for a physical or speed approach instead. Good pass catching ability. Has been injured, and will get nicked up. Can handle the bull rush in pass protection, but struggles with well versed pass rushers.



And they are about equal, as I first stated. I think the premise of having them both, is to interchange them, splitting carries/touches and prolonging both their careers by keeping them fresher because they are so similar.


Self-hating? No. I'm a realist.
As running backs, they're about equal. In our offense, however,it's not even close.

Graham can run through traffic and make yardage for himself. We don't overpower teams at the line and we rarely make the kind of holes that backs like Ward and Cadillac can take advantage of. Graham gives us positive yardage every time and keeps us in manageable situations.

Unless our blocking drastically improves, Graham will be the better back by a good amount. Ward can definitely steal some carries and will benefit from the new blocking scheme, but Graham is the better overall back and gives us a better chance to win games.

It's difficult to evaluate Ward because of the impact of his supporting cast and how much that helps him statistically. I can, however, guarantee that I've seen enough of the Giants over the past 2 years not to have to guess about him, Bradshaw or Jacobs.
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Well.... if Jagodzinski implements his ZBS to any success, it's good news for Graham, and especially Ward. I think our interior, Sears, Faine and Joseph..... have the right combination of size, power, technique and footwork to make our offense a force running the ball between the tackles. Having been a big Bill Muir hater for the simpleton scheme he ran....... I am truly excited to what Jagodzinski and Mangurian are going to do with this group.
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Old 12-31-2009, 12:43 PM    (permalink
TRJ997
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I just happened upon this post. Surprised no one bumped it yet.
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