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Old 03-18-2010, 02:40 PM    (permalink
MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
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Coaches and players help each other out. It's a symbiotic relationship. A good coach can only do so much with mediocre or bad players, and great players can only go so far with a mediocre/bad coach.

A good example IMO would be the Chargers. They are an IMMENSELY talented team who is CLEARLY capable of winning a Super Bowl. I don't think anyone would disagree with me here. However, one could easily see a problem with who their head coaches have been. Neither Marty nor Norv has had much success leading playoff teams whereas others like Belichick thrive.
Chargers had a lot of trouble running the ball and stopping the run this season. They were very one dimensional, Rivers was so good though that he still had a great chance of winning the SB, but he had a couple of hiccups against a great D like the Jets.

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Similarly, a good coach like Mike Shanahan may bomb in Washington unless he manages to get the most out of his players and find some more good ones in the draft/FA. The two factors go hand in hand, it's hard to truly succeed if you ONLY have a good coach or ONLY have good players.
Shanahan hasn't been a good coach for years.
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How many "bad" coaches have won Super Bowls in recent memory?
Zero, because once you win the Super Bowl, you cease being a bad coach.

As an example, Tom Coughlin had all the signs of being a terrible head coach right up until the year before he won the SB. You had locker room divisions, players publicly calling him out, and late season collapses. They got rid of the players causing the divisions, Eli played great, Justin Tuck broke out, they got hot at the right time and they won the Super Bowl.
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I don't mean to make it seem like I'm saying that me and my buddies could coach a team, even one full of all-stars, and lead it anywhere. Coaches are getting paid that much cash for a reason, and they've all proven themselves from college on up, some even in HS. But I don't think that, once you're in the NFL, there's going to be THAT much of a difference between coaches(yes, some are better than others). I just think that the most important thing is the right group of players. My example of me and my buddies coaching a team full of all-stars, well even if we coached the Rams, we'd still beat a team of brilliant NFL masterminds coaching me and my buddies.
I think there is a big difference among coached, it's a matter of the avg of being aware of this. When you are the HC you have the whole ship under your control. You have to set the rules, set practices, run meetings, and manage people and egos. You have to be very good at details and organization.

One coach may be a great Xs and Os guy, but may be horrible at managing the other coaches, and players.

I think it's a balanced relationship, and even a team full of all stars will have many egos, and the coach will need to coach and manage these guys. Can he do it well? Does he hire the right staff that is competent?

I think just like any other level, you do have differences in coaches and their abilities to coach. The players are important but I think a good coach can do more in helping the team overachieve or underachieve. It comes down to how well he can do the other stuff leading up to the game.
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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How do you know? See this is why this is a moot argument. All we can tell that it happened. Did it happen because of the player? the coach? A combination? Maybe just a willing, talented player with a good work ethic and a coach who really helps him transition. Peyton Manning made himself you say, I say we can't possibly know who 'made' Peyton Manning. All we know is at least two guys were directly involved in him becomming great, but there is no way of knowing in what capacity.
It was Manning. Manning would never have failed, there is not a single player alive who works harder than he does. It's not like he was some idiot, he was the #1 overall pick. Manning would have succeeded anywhere, with anyone, because he was Peyton Manning.

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here's a riddle for you... after going 5-11, 5-11 and 6-10 in '04-'06, the Cardinals have gone 8-8, 9-7 and 10-6 in '07-'09. What changed?

Yeah I mean I'm sure it had nothing to do with the maturation of the OL, the re-emergence of Kurt Warner and the maturation of Breaston to go along with Larry Fitz and Quan.

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Who won the superbowl this year? And what is their coach well-known for? So that's my point right there.
This whole board considered Payton a godawful play caller right up until this year, when he had the players to pull it off.

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This is some north american pop culture thing I guess? Well good for you! I hope Deion likes beer? I guess?
My bad, it was actually Leon.




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Allright, fair enough, except for the below the belt comment about Quinn. I still think you're writing him off too fast.
It's not below the belt, he literally cannot throw the football.
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Sean Payton still has a lot of boneheaded playcalls, but he simplified the team a lot this year. We cut down the trick plays, and ran the ball hard.

Still wouldn't crown him an all time great coach, but he kept the things that made him great, like his aggression and enthusiasm, and cut down on some of the things that made him bad.

The staff is great at developing and drafting though I'd say :)
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Old 03-24-2010, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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Browns could get third round pick for Quinn

The Cleveland Plain-Dealer reports the Browns could receive a pick as high as the third-round in 2012 or as low as the sixth-round. The compensation will depend on Quinn's playing time over the next two seasons.
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Old 03-24-2010, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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as promised, here's my juggernaut post again.
I completely, absolutely and 100% agree with you on the unfair expectations now being placed on young QBs after the successes of Roethlisberger/Ryan/Flacco. QBs are going to be rushed into their development instead of being able to develop at the pace best suited for them. After all, every prospect is different so putting a universal timeline on their development is just plain silly.

However, I disagree that most QBs are given up on too early. Coaching staffs are watching these guys every day in practice. If you've got "it" then "it" will show itself. Mark Sanchez's rookie year was terrible by statistical standard, but it doesn't really matter because he showed enough flashes of potential to confirm that he has the ability to be a good quarterback in this league. Brady Quinn hasn't shown that he does anything well.

While there will always be a story of a guy like Jake Delhomme or Kurt Warner slipping through the cracks when all they needed was a little more time to develop, the truth of the matter is that most guys just simply won't ever get it.
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Old 03-24-2010, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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Sean Payton still has a lot of boneheaded playcalls, but he simplified the team a lot this year. We cut down the trick plays, and ran the ball hard.

Still wouldn't crown him an all time great coach, but he kept the things that made him great, like his aggression and enthusiasm, and cut down on some of the things that made him bad.

The staff is great at developing and drafting though I'd say :)
Now that some time has passed since the Super Bowl and the bitterness has gone, I can say I'm truly happy for your franchise for finally getting a ring. Plus, Drew Brees is awesome and went to college at Purdue in Indiana so I've got a bit of a sweet spot for him.

I'd definitely say Payton is a top 5 coach in the league, and his ability to motivate and bring out the best in his players is amazing to watch.
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:14 PM    (permalink
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time to bump this thread and heres another quinn video
all pass attempts in his 4th career start

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Old 04-03-2010, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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BRADY QUINN IS GOD!!! That is all....But in all seriousness, he will continue to be my favorite college football player ever and I really hope that he succeeds in denver because I need to be happy...:)
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:41 PM    (permalink
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this is the one thing that i question about football that makes me almost favor baseball. you can always argue that a player wouldn't be as good if he wasn't in a certain system, or that he' be better in a different system.

at least in baseball, a player can't hide behind excuses and claim it was a coordinators fault, or something to that extent/nature. the player is the player, no matter the team. you know what you're getting. you know if you have a bust. brady quinn? i have no clue. could be the next drew brees, probably just brady quinn though.
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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im sorry but everytime i look at the name of the thread i cant seem not to chuckle.

I think McDaniels could turn him into a viable starter, especially if he could do the same to Orton
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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For serious though, McDaniels is probably the first coach I'd send a QB to...maybe Shanahan...if I wanted that QB to succeed. The guy "gets" offense...IMO at least.
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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im sorry but everytime i look at the name of the thread i cant seem not to chuckle.

I think McDaniels could turn him into a viable starter, especially if he could do the same to Orton
Yeah but Orton was decent the year before he left Chicago, he had around 17TDs and 14 INTs with an anemic offense, and was arguably better than Cassell that year.

Quinn can't even claim that bit of success.
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Old 04-04-2010, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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Yeah but Orton was decent the year before he left Chicago, he had around 17TDs and 14 INTs with an anemic offense, and was arguably better than Cassell that year.

Quinn can't even claim that bit of success.
He had 18 touchdowns to 12 interceptions with a poor offensive line and a below average receiving corps.
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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For serious though, McDaniels is probably the first coach I'd send a QB to...maybe Shanahan...if I wanted that QB to succeed. The guy "gets" offense...IMO at least.
You obviously didn't watch too many Bronco games. The offense was rather poor, even with a decent amount of talent. He's not quite the guru some people see him as.
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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You obviously didn't watch too many Bronco games. The offense was rather poor, even with a decent amount of talent. He's not quite the guru some people see him as.
Its the patriot affect they win a couple superbowls (by cheating, but this not time to discuss that)and all their coaches are geniuses. Charlie Weis was suppose the greatest coach in college football history. Romeo was a defensive genius and now josh mcdaniels is a QB guru.
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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Its the patriot affect they win a couple superbowls (by cheating, but this not time to discuss that)and all their coaches are geniuses. Charlie Weis was suppose the greatest coach in college football history. Romeo was a defensive genius and now josh mcdaniels is a QB guru.
I thought the patriot effect was to turn normally sane, reasonable fans of football into lowblow-dealing, a-hole comment-making douches. I guess I was wrong all this ti-- wait, no I'm still right.
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:33 PM    (permalink
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I thought the patriot effect was to turn normally sane, reasonable fans of football into lowblow-dealing, a-hole comment-making douches. I guess I was wrong all this ti-- wait, no I'm still right.
It does both.....
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Originally Posted by Complex View Post
It does both.....
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