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Old 06-18-2010, 08:44 AM    (permalink
Brent
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I would really really like this idea, I've never seen it broken down that way, probably won't happen but I'd be very much in favor of this. Would get to see some epic Big XII championship matches, and TCU & Houston have been getting better and better as of recent. Going to a bigger conference would help their recruiting out.
I don't like the idea of not having OU and UT in the same division unless you guarantee that OU will play UT every year as a conference game.

Baylor-TCU would be a nice, new rivalry. I think TAMU-Houston would develop into one, purely based on geography.
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Old 06-18-2010, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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Default How the Aggies Saved the Big 12

I thought this warranted its own thread, but it's p/o Conference Expansion (or not).

From the Thursday Ft. Worth Star Telegram:

By JENNIFER FLOYD ENGEL

jenfloyd@star-telegram.com

Forget vuvuzelas. The single most annoying whine in need of silencing in sports at this moment is this "Dan Beebe saved the Big 12" nonsense being buzzed about by the clueless.

Beebe saved the Big 12, kind of like Jordan Farmar paces the Lakers or Larry Mullen Jr. is indispensable to U2.

Which is to say: Not at all.

What Beebe did particularly well, with his conference gasping for a last breath, was be smart enough to stand back as the grownups figured out how to save the conference, and his job.

So how exactly did Big 12 go from DOA to alive and well?

The life raft came from College Station, and it is only polite to extend a big ol' thank you to your friends from Texas A&M.

So why am I not hearing barely a word about them, except them nastily sniping at one another? Because everybody is focused on Texas.

It is easy to understand why Aggies have a little bit of a complex after this latest chapter of Texas football politics. They do all of the heavy lifting, and Longhorn Nation basks in every ounce of credit and/or blame, depending on who is judging.

Let's be clear: Longhorn Nation did nothing wrong.

Is it bullying to see a clearly inferior Nebraska and all 14 of its TV sets about to land a huge Big Ten pay increase and think, "Hey, why not us?" And isn't it just good business to use your power to negotiate a superior deal for yourself?

No shame, Texas. No shame.

Just no credit for Big 12 saving. That belongs to the anti-Bevos.

How the Aggies saved the Big 12 was by growing a backbone. When big-timers at A&M decided they were done following in lockstep with Bevo and Co., they slowed to a crawl what had been a Sherman-like march to the Pacific. Delay caused by the Aggies allowed for TV entities and ADs from schools with no rooting interest and politicians and big-time business types, all uninterested in mega-conferences for personal-gain reasons, to swoop in and build consensus and save the Big 12 from itself.

And make no mistake, during this downtime, Texas had second thoughts.

Pac-16 money claims were fuzzy.

Travel headaches were obvious.

Horns were definitely being sized for the 'Horns.

And by Monday, Texas had a whole lot of reasons to stay in the Big 12. About the only team with a good reason to bolt was Texas A&M.

The dollar math is not fuzzy in the SEC, and you could feel the sentiment building, among old Ags and young: "Let's break free from Texas." A perfect chance existed, a chance to finally and wholly get out of Bevo's shadow and to be in a killer conference.

And in this moment, they did what Aggies pride themselves on. They kept their word. They did not run.

Both SEC-ede and Pac-16 sides of the Aggies' house divided had been saying their goal was to save the Big 12, and they backed it up by doing just that and, thus, everybody stayed. Because if A&M had gone SEC, then Texas and Oklahoma and Tech and Oklahoma State were going Pac-16, fuzzy math or not.

And Kansas and Kansas State and Missouri were destined for the Mountain West while Baylor did penance for 15 years ago.

TCU denials aside -- and really what was the Frogs' AD supposed to say on record, "Heck, yeah, we are sticking it to them"? -- Frogs fans and administrators had been waiting 15 long years to watch the Karma Train finally pull into Baylor's station. And rightfully so. Does anybody believe Baylor is right now lobbying for TCU inclusion in a mathematically correct Big 12?

Yes, football conference politics can be ugly. And selfish. And money driven. And mean.

And that is why I respect what the Aggies did. They said salvaging the Big 12 was their priority, and they showed that their word is not simply words.

Those Aggie jerks.

I seem to have garnered a following in Nebraska, or what some might call an angry mob. Glad to have them. Love them, really, although, they do not seem fluent in sarcasm, so let me explain. That line about jerks was sarcastic.

Honestly, I do not understand why the Aggies have turned on themselves for:

(a) keeping their word;

(b) staying in a conference where they have a better chance of winning;

(c) honoring tradition by maintaining the rivalry with Texas (and that was going away if A&M went SEC);

(d) being the savior of the Big 12.

Yet my inbox has been filled by Aggies angry at Aggies. And my inbox apparently has nothing on A&M AD Bill Byrne's in terms of venom level.

He, BTW, has become my hero.

Floating around on the Google machine is a voice mail left by Byrne to one of those angry e-mailers who suggested Byrne had his tongue in an awkward place on DeLoss Dodds' anatomy.

"I'd like to talk to you in person," Byrne is heard saying. "Someone who has no guts to write something like that needs to have his [butt] kicked."

Apparently Byrne was the man to tap to handle dealings with Nebraska a year or so ago. Not that losing Nebraska and that other school that left is a bad thing. It is not. It is an opportunity.

Even as Beebe swears the Big 12 is staying at 10, talk of adding Arkansas has gained traction. And I am guessing Cowboys owner Jerry Jones has a hand in this. I am claiming no inside sources, only going off years of covering the man. He always has a plan when he wants something.

And he wants a Big 12 title game at JerryWorld.

And he'd love to have Arkansas back in the Big 12.

And he loved to play matchmaker.

So all he needs is another team to join Arkansas. And from a guy who brought us The T.O. Show and billion-dollar JerryWorld and the Pacquiao fight, you know he tends to go large. A name I have heard thrown around is Notre Dame.

How big is the Big 12 then?

Just remember to thank your friendly neighborhood Aggies if it happens.
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Old 06-18-2010, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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I don't like the idea of not having OU and UT in the same division unless you guarantee that OU will play UT every year as a conference game.

Baylor-TCU would be a nice, new rivalry. I think TAMU-Houston would develop into one, purely based on geography.
If you use the SEC model and assign a permanent rival from one division to the other then UT and OU could play each other every year in as a conference game. Just like how LSU plays Florida, Alabama plays Tennessee, and Auburn-Georgia play each other every year.
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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So how exactly did Big 12 go from DOA to alive and well?
Yeah.....the Big12 may be alive for now, but it's not alive and well.
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:34 AM    (permalink
Brent
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If you use the SEC model and assign a permanent rival from one division to the other then UT and OU could play each other every year in as a conference game. Just like how LSU plays Florida, Alabama plays Tennessee, and Auburn-Georgia play each other every year.
See, I don't really follow the SEC as much as I should, so I was not aware of that.

But that would be cool, using your model, I would assign the following rivals:

Baylor-Iowa State
Houston-Kansas State
Texas-Oklahoma
Texas A&M-Kansas
TCU-Mizzouri
Texas Tech-Oklahoma State

It's not perfect, but I'm trying. I said Kansas-TAMU because that carries over to basketball.
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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Would you Big 12 fans rather Houston or BYU receive an invitation to join the conference along with TCU should an offer be extended?
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Still telling ya, TCU's bad blood with Baylor won't allow them to join the Big 12, they won't do it.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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Still telling ya, TCU's bad blood with Baylor won't allow them to join the Big 12, they won't do it.
Doesn't their bad blood stem from not being invited to join the Big 12 when it was created? Wouldn't an invite now off-set the jilting they received back then?
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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Still telling ya, TCU's bad blood with Baylor won't allow them to join the Big 12, they won't do it.
You really think they'd turn down that sort of revenue increase?

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Doesn't their bad blood stem from not being invited to join the Big 12 when it was created? Wouldn't an invite now off-set the jilting they received back then?
Yes, at the time of the Big XII's formation, Ann Richards was our governor. She is a Baylor alum, and basically used her political power to makes sure that Baylor wasnt left out of the Big XII.

I don't think an invite would settle things. I have to believe that they'd accept an invite, but they have been waiting 15 years for the universe to bite Baylor in the ass.
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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Doesn't their bad blood stem from not being invited to join the Big 12 when it was created? Wouldn't an invite now off-set the jilting they received back then?
Not a chance.

Picture this. You're allowed to invite 5 of your friends somewhere, and the 6th person feels pissed they're left out. When one of your 5 drop, is the 6th person gonna just be excited to go, or still pissed that they're your #6 friend.
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Not a chance.

Picture this. You're allowed to invite 5 of your friends somewhere, and the 6th person feels pissed they're left out. When one of your 5 drop, is the 6th person gonna just be excited to go, or still pissed that they're your #6 friend.
Depends on what the event is but like Brent said, do you think TCU would turn down the revenue and exposure they would receive in the Big XII just to stay in the Mountain West and stick it to Baylor?
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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Still telling ya, TCU's bad blood with Baylor won't allow them to join the Big 12, they won't do it.
Then they would say, "Just kidding."

It might take them 10 seconds to make up their mind, but probably not. The BCS is that big a deal for them. Also, the baseball in the Big XII is stellar. In case anyone failed to notice, the Frogs are in the WS.

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Would you Big 12 fans rather Houston or BYU receive an invitation to join the conference along with TCU should an offer be extended?
BYU, by lots and lots. FYI I live in Texas.

Are they going to call it the Big X this season?

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Old 06-21-2010, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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Depends on what the event is but like Brent said, do you think TCU would turn down the revenue and exposure they would receive in the Big XII just to stay in the Mountain West and stick it to Baylor?
I think they could, but Utah going to the Pac 10 could hurt the chances. With Utah and Boise they're likely to get a BCS bid, but without Utah they won't.

If I'm TCU I'd much rather be in the Big 12. They'd be a better program and bigger player than Baylor anyway.
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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TCU should join the Big 12 because of Baylor, itd be a nice kick to the gut to Baylor to have TCU in anyway after pulling strings to exclude them 15 years ago, and to also have TCU beating the crap out of Baylor in football and prolly most other things year round. It would also give them great exposure and added revenue which has already been said and is the main reason they should go to the Big 12 if invited
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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TCU should join the Big 12 because of Baylor, itd be a nice kick to the gut to Baylor to have TCU in anyway after pulling strings to exclude them 15 years ago, and to also have TCU beating the crap out of Baylor in football and prolly most other things year round. It would also give them great exposure and added revenue which has already been said and is the main reason they should go to the Big 12 if invited
Being in a conference does pertain to more than sports. Yes, that is the moneymaker, but you have to respect the schools in there with you because you have to work with them...a lot. I think this goes a bit deeper than football.
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:00 AM    (permalink
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Being in a conference does pertain to more than sports. Yes, that is the moneymaker, but you have to respect the schools in there with you because you have to work with them...a lot. I think this goes a bit deeper than football.
very true and that is something i did overlook for my post, TCU and Baylor will have to work together in a sense but that being said TCU cant ignore an offer from the Big 12 because theyll have to work with Baylor due to the positives in terms of recruitment and visibility.
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Old 07-02-2010, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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It sucks that schools like TCU and BYU are being held back because of their names and affiliations.
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Old 07-02-2010, 05:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smokey Joe View Post
It sucks that schools like TCU and BYU are being held back because of their names and affiliations.
I would be shocked if that were the case. It's likely that they are being held back because they are not money-making institutions on the level of other schools.
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Old 07-02-2010, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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BYU gets held back because of religion.
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Old 07-02-2010, 10:14 PM    (permalink
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BYU gets held back because of religion.
Yes...and no. A big factor is not being willing to play on Sundays. The issue with adding those schools to a conference generally has to do with academia and the interaction between schools via a conference of academia.
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Old 07-03-2010, 01:03 AM    (permalink
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You are being naive if you don't think religion plays a factor. The main reason why Baylor didn't get an invite to the Pac-16 wasn't because they sucked, but rather all the california schools were against adding a christian university. Given that the casual fan doesn't even know that Baylor is a christian university, what chance do schools like TCU and BYU have when their names clearly give it away?

Not starting a political debate but rather stating the truth, most universities (especially out west in cali and in the east) are more left leaning. TCU and BYU have a shot in the Big XII because of the teams that make up the conference are in more conservative states and they already have 1 christian university, but otherwise, most power conferences will shy away because of their name and affiliation.

Notre Dame gets an exemption because they are freaking Notre Dame.
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Old 07-03-2010, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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The Big 12 as it was formerly known got a stay of execution, next offseason I think all this will start up again, Texas will be wooed by everyone with millions thrown around, then it's all over for the Big 12 who will be left with only Kansas, Kansas St., Iowa St. & Baylor & their remaining options will be Conference USA, Mtn. West & the WAC.

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Notre Dame gets an exemption because they are freaking Notre Dame.
Yes ND will always be exceptional b/c of its rep. The Pac 11, really hard to get used to that name, pulled off the coup this offseaon by landing Colorado. Despite their Jesuit origins & indy tradition ND will be the next to join a conference, the misnomered Big 10 in this case, after they throw gazillions at them & then divide into East & West divisions.
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Old 07-03-2010, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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The Big XII still stands. After the smoke cleared and the dust settled the conference is still intact after flirtation with the Pac10 by Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and Texas Tech. The super conference talk is dead (for now) but is sure to resurface soon as the settlement made to keep the Big XII together resembles that of a shaky armistice.

The University of Texas and its minion Oklahoma made off like the school yard bully who threatens to beat you up unless you give him your lunch money. With those two universities, along with Texas A&M, splitting the payout from Colorado and Nebraska leaving the conference it just creates even more disparity within the conference. The seemingly passive attitude of Dan Beebe, Big XII commissioner, reflects more as the image of Neville Chamberlain than that of a strong, commanding, powerful leader that is needing during times of crisis.

When looking at winners and losers of the latest round of conference realignment the Big XII is clearly one of the losers when considering that rival conferences are all stronger despite what Dan Beebe says to the contrary. The Big 10 and Pac10 are winners since they expanded to twelve teams with each conference now having the capability of playing a conference championship game, which both will do due to how much money each conference will make because of one. The SEC won by not having to expand. Now the Big XII founds themselves in the position the Big 10 and Pac10 were in up until recently: finding themselves irrelevant while other conferences play on. While some may argue that the Big 10 and Pac10 were able to maintain relevance while being at only ten teams then explain why Joe Paterno has been lobbying for a twelfth team to be added for years.

The Big XII has been the most snake-bit league when it comes to championship games so it is understandable why they celebrate the fact they no longer have one but now they find themselves in the same utterance as the Big East as the only two conferences to not play a conference championship game. By staying put at ten teams, it also gives either Texas or Oklahoma a clear path to being conference champions. Nebraska was the only tough road game either team had and with the Cornhuskers moving to the Big 10 the way is now paved of gold. Texas and Oklahoma play on a neutral site with the only semi-tough road games either team will face is Texas A&M for Texas (Lone State Showdown) and Oklahoma State for Oklahoma (Bedlam Series).

There are ways to combat the inevitable irrelevance the conference may find itself in after the last week of November. The first is to move the Texas/Oklahoma game from early October to the last game of the year. Pitting the two biggest schools in the Big XII against each other at that time would put the winner still fresh in the minds of the voters who create the polls. It would also be one of the most highly watched games on television.

The second way is to do something Dan Beebe has said the conference will not do: EXPAND. The idea of not wanting to expand the Big XII is to kowtow to Texas because beefing the conference back up to twelve teams would cut into the Longhorns payout. Sometimes sacrifice is needed in order to maintain competitiveness especially in the cutthroat world of college football. If Texas is to be the big dog in the Big XII then create an all-Texas division. Invite two former Southwest Conference members in TCU and Houston and put them in the same division as Texas. Those two members bring a rising, tough program in football (TCU) and a school with a great basketball tradition whose athletic programs are on the rise (Houston). Divisions would break down as such:

Texas Division: Baylor, Houston, Texas, Texas A&M, TCU, Texas Tech

North Division: Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State

The case could be made of inviting BYU but some issues stand in their way. The biggest issue is that the university refuses to play sports on Sundays. It will be a longer trip for parents and players to travel to Provo than it was to travel to Boulder, Colorado. Finally, added Houston would appease the parents of the athletes in that they could travel within their own state to see their child compete than to travel outside of the state. Finally, by adding Houston and TCU it would create a distinct Texas feel to the conference which is what the old Southwest Conference had.

Those two ideas are the best that are out there for the Big XII. If they want to make a move then they should make one soon. If they do not then the league will see itself fall apart in the years to come as Texas will continue to push for money or some other Big XII team starts looking at greener pastures for a more even payout just like Nebraska did.
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Old 07-03-2010, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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While that idea is good on paper, it just wouldn't work.

First off, the number 1 deciding factor in conference expansion is how much more money are you going to bring in with said team. And how do you get that money? With TV Market and fan base. I don't see how Houston and TCU add to that with the juggernaut Texas and also Texas A&M occupying the state. And even then, TCU and Houston don't have all that large of fan bases to begin with.

Also, the Texas Division looks like fun, but odds are it would hurt recruiting. One of the biggest advantages of playing big time college football is being able to visit new places and go to different states and such. However, in this Texas Division, you are talking about at least 8 or 9 games in the state of Texas every year. And while it seems like it could be fun and would be nice for parents, it could also get boring. Other schools can offer an athlete the chance to travel around the country to 5 or 6 different states every year. While the major texas schools can offer a lot of texas and 2 or 3 games in different states.

I just don't see it working. But you definitely need to split up OU and Texas.
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Old 07-04-2010, 12:43 AM    (permalink
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I don't know how the Big XII is set up, but if it's like the SEC, if there really is this bad blood between Baylor and TCU, regardless of what TCU wants, couldn't Baylor cockblock them?
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