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Old 09-10-2010, 02:45 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
I don't know if we can't get physically bigger than today's game.* It may end up being like Baseball, when they root out the PED and everyone's size returns to "natural" levels.


* "Mario Williams is a chump, a 290-lbs DE that ran a 4.7, pst.. Steve Jones is 330-lbs and ran a 4.3!"
There will always be ways to beat the system. You can't get rid of PEDs. Especially in football.

Guys in the 70s used steroids and they still weren't as big as today's players. So its not just PEDs thats making athletes bigger.
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Old 09-10-2010, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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WHAT!?!?!?
Honestly I think it's hit or miss.
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Old 09-10-2010, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by wonderbredd24 View Post
Greg Carr was the quarterback of the Cincinnati Bengals when Paul Brown was running their offense. According to Walsh, he was the most physically talented quarterback he's ever worked with and felt he was going to be an absolute stud and he was... for one year.

Unfortunately, the guy tore his rotator cuff and in those days, they had no idea what to do about it, so what did they do? Had him throw his arm back in shape, which only served to further destroy his shoulder and end his career.

The result was Bill Walsh forced to try to make a functioning offense around former BYU quarterck, Oliver Carter. Carter was smart, mobile, and relatively accurate, but he had a weak arm and the Bengals couldn't protect him. So, he developed the Walsh offense (he hated the name West Coast) which focused on quick throws, timing, and taking advantage of all 53 1/3 yards of the field's width.

So, if Greg Carr never tears his rotator cuff, does the Walsh offense ever get created? Or would someone else have come up with it? No way to know, but an interesting thing to think about
You mean Greg Cook.
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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There will always be ways to beat the system. You can't get rid of PEDs. Especially in football.

Guys in the 70s used steroids and they still weren't as big as today's players. So its not just PEDs thats making athletes bigger.

Yeah, I know. But it just cannot be biologically possible to get much bigger, faster, stronger than today's game. For example, they said that obesity levels have flat lined because, well we can't get any bigger as humans. LOL
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:29 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Yeah, I know. But it just cannot be biologically possible to get much bigger, faster, stronger than today's game. For example, they said that obesity levels have flat lined because, well we can't get any bigger as humans. LOL
hahaha, good to know we're as fat as possible.

But then again, they just came out with the double down from KFC, so maybe we'll take obesity to new levels in a couple of years.
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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I saw the grilled cheeseburger the other day! It is a cheeseburger with grilled cheese sandwiches instead of buns....


hmmmmmm obesity...

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Old 09-10-2010, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) View Post
Fast forward to the year 2040 where the next generation of sports fans think that the greats of our era would get destroyed in the leagues of the future. Hell, it's already starting. I know tons of kids who think Kobe is better than MJ because MJ allegedly played against worse players. That's right, the 1990s, an era in which basketball was much, much better than it is right now, was full of weak players that MJ dominated. This is something I've actually heard from someone. 30 years from now, we'll tell them what they're saying isn't true and we'll be called old farts overrating past greats because of our delusional nostalgia.
The funniest part is, we saw Kobe as a bench player in the 90's
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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I don't know which kids you're talking about, but everyone I know from age-7 on up thinks Michael Jordan is some sort of demigod. I haven't talked to anyone who seriously thinks Kobe Bryant is better.
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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I saw the grilled cheeseburger the other day! It is a cheeseburger with grilled cheese sandwiches instead of buns....


hmmmmmm obesity...

The Chuck Norris burger, two 1 pound patties with a grilled cheese sandwich in the middle.
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Football...it's rocket surgery now, folks.
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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I've heard kids say Kobe is better.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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You mean Greg Cook.
Brain fart. Thanks for the correction.

Shiver, seriously? You might want to grab a bigger shovel.

Jim Brown retired in his prime. You really don't think he would have dominated for another year, since the Superbowl for the 1966 season was played in January of 1967.

In 1965, he had 289 carries for 1,544 yards (5.3 yards per carry and 110.3 per game), 17 TDs and another 328 yards receiving plus 4 more TDs.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:25 PM    (permalink
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i'm just upset because Strahan would be great in every era. He was quick enough to be an outstanding sack guy, but strong enough to be just as good against the run. I'm still a little peeved he's so low.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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i'm just upset because Strahan would be great in every era. He was quick enough to be an outstanding sack guy, but strong enough to be just as good against the run. I'm still a little peeved he's so low.
I think Strahan was underappreciated in his time and there are people who wouldn't have been pissed if he wasn't on the list at all.

I think you might feel better if you compare Strahan to the other DEnds on the list... being ahead of a monster like Lee Roy Selmon is impressive.
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Old 09-10-2010, 05:03 PM    (permalink
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I've heard kids say Kobe is better.
Yeah I heard a kid say the exact argument I posted, that the league MJ played in was worse than the one Kobe plays in now. He's a senior in high school. Shiver, you're lucky to not have to put up with that crowd, lol.
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Old 09-10-2010, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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When Laker fans say Kobe is better, it makes me want to punch them in the face.

There is not a single part of Kobe's game that is better than Michael's. Kobe is basically a poor man's Michael. Kobe developed a dangerous jump shot earlier in his career than Michael did, but the size and strength of MJ's hands allowed him to get to the rim on a more consistent basis than Kobe (in a much more physical, hand-checking, defensive-oriented era no less). MJ also had much more natural athleticism in his prime.
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Old 09-10-2010, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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Will Smith reminds me of Mike Strahan right now. He has about 2 more sacks through the same amount of seasons, I hope he continues to build on his game and stay healthy so he can put up some big sack seasons. Love guys that are so strong against the pass and the run.
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Old 09-10-2010, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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Will Smith reminds me of Mike Strahan right now. He has about 2 more sacks through the same amount of seasons, I hope he continues to build on his game and stay healthy so he can put up some big sack seasons. Love guys that are so strong against the pass and the run.
please tell me you're just talking in terms of style and you're not comparing will smith to one of the greatest DE's of all time.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 09-10-2010, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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When Laker fans say Kobe is better, it makes me want to punch them in the face.

There is not a single part of Kobe's game that is better than Michael's. Kobe is basically a poor man's Michael. Kobe developed a dangerous jump shot earlier in his career than Michael did, but the size and strength of MJ's hands allowed him to get to the rim on a more consistent basis than Kobe (in a much more physical, hand-checking, defensive-oriented era no less). MJ also had much more natural athleticism in his prime.

3PT shot, that's literally it. MJ never shot 3s basically and still averaged 30+ PPG... incredible.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:26 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I know. But it just cannot be biologically possible to get much bigger, faster, stronger than today's game.
Biologically, maybe not, but we're just starting to peek under the covers of what chemical sport science is. We're not at any sort of stasis here.
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:37 PM    (permalink
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Best Larry Allen play ever.
I remember Orlando Pace chased down Champ Bailey on a similar play. Does anybody have a clip of that?
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Old 09-11-2010, 05:15 AM    (permalink
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Fast forward to the year 2040 where the next generation of sports fans think that the greats of our era would get destroyed in the leagues of the future. Hell, it's already starting. I know tons of kids who think Kobe is better than MJ because MJ allegedly played against worse players. That's right, the 1990s, an era in which basketball was much, much better than it is right now, was full of weak players that MJ dominated. This is something I've actually heard from someone. 30 years from now, we'll tell them what they're saying isn't true and we'll be called old farts overrating past greats because of our delusional nostalgia.
Michael Jordan himself has said that he wishes he could play with guys today instead of his era. There is no question athletes have become bigger, stronger and faster... over the last decade. Regardless of three or four decades ago. Those little kids that have no clue what they are talking about, are right. I agree that they have no clue what they are talking about, but they are right.

As far as the thread... I was just shocked to see Strahan the second player listed. He was, along with Reggie White, the best LDE in the history of the game. A beast against the run, and the record holder for sacks in a single season. If that does not define a complete player, then I don't know what does. He has a ring. He has the longevity, I thought he would have been much higher. And then to see Kurt Warner, Strahan's own teammate... hold onto the ball, take sack after sack, showed no pocket presence once so ever, and then fumbled every single ******* time a defensive player came near him... and THAT guy is ahead of him. If Warner had at least three or four more years like the 2 he had in St. Louis and his last 2 in Arizona, then I would have no problem with it, but he basically had 5 good to great years. That's it. The rest? He was in QB competitions with guys like Eli Manning, Matt Leinart and Josh McCown or playing like dog ****.

1999 - Warner's best year was his first year. Ridiculous numbers: 41 TDs to 13 INTs. Came in and had his second best post season performance in his first playoff game. He threw for 391 yards and 5 TDs (83% completion percentage). But people forget that this guy played like complete dog **** in the NFC Championship game against Tampa Bay and barely made it to the SB. The greatest show on turf won 11-6. He played like ******* dog ****. He did redeem himself with a great SB performance and a memorable duel with Steve McNair.

The next year, 2000, he played in 11 games and threw 18 INTs. First round loss... 3 more INTs. I don't consider that a very good year to be honest.

Then in 2001, his last good year in St. Louis, he threw for nearly 5,000 yards and 36 TDs. Had a pretty solid Super Bowl performance against NE, but a loss.

Ended up playing like dog **** in 2002 as the Rams started 0-3 thanks to Warner's 7 INTs to just 1 TD. Broke his finger in game 4, came back late in the season and played like **** again. Went 0-5 as a starter.

Got benched in 2003 after he had one of the worst games I have ever seen a QB have. Sacked 6 times, fumbled 6 times. Marc Bulger took over. Warner's career was over with the Rams.

Signed with the Giants in 2004 and played like dog ****. He fumbled 12 times in the first 7 games. Was sacked seemingly 5 to 7 times a game. Somehow the Giants kept winning. Eli took over midway through the season. Warner went to Arizona.

2005 was an injury plagued year and then, he actually had a QB battle with Josh McCown (Not a good player). Warner eventually won the QB job for the 2006 season.

Warner started 5 games in 2006. Lost QB job to NFL bust, Matt Leinart. That marks 5, count them, 5 straight years of doing nothing.

2007 season was Warner's best since 2001. Once again in a QB battle with Leinart, Warner eventually took over the reigns after the two swapped time in back-to-back games. He threw for over 3,400 yards and 27 TDs in just 11 starts (14 games).

2008 was Warner's second best season. A true MVP caliber season (other QBs were better in 2008 though), but he was amazing as he led the Cardinal's to their first SB appearance. He threw for nearly 4,600 yards, 30 TDs to just 14 INTs and had a great post season run. Played a phenomenal game against PHI in the NFC championship game and then played great against PIT in the SB. Another SB loss though.

2009 was another fantastic season and had Warner's single greatest game in the divisional playoffs against Aaron Rodgers and the Packers. Throwing for 379 yards and 5 TDs, 0 INTs and just 4 incompletions in a 51-45 shootout. His greatest game of his career. Finished his career against the eventual SB champs, the Saints, in a 45-17 loss.



Really, 4 Hall of Fame caliber seasons? 1 very good season between that and then mostly **** in between. And this is better than Michael Strahan? The guy had 141 career sacks. 22.5 in 2001 alone. 18.5 in 2003. Are ya kidding me? He's ahead of Larry Allen? Michael Irvin? Derrick Brooks? I don't even get how Brooks is ahead of Strahan.
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Old 09-11-2010, 05:50 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BigBanger View Post
Derrick Brooks? I don't even get how Brooks is ahead of Strahan.
Why is that difficult to understand? Brooks is one of the best outside linebackers to ever play. He's pretty much accomplished everything that Strahan has done, except at a different position. Defensive player of the year, Super Bowl champion. I guess he doesn't have the sack record. But I don't think Brooks has ever missed a single game since becoming a starter. He even has more All-Pro selections and Pro Bowls. I could see Strahan being placed above him, but I wouldn't say it's an obvious decision. Brooks can certainly go ahead of Strahan.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 09-11-2010, 08:17 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BigBanger View Post
Michael Jordan himself has said that he wishes he could play with guys today instead of his era. There is no question athletes have become bigger, stronger and faster... over the last decade. Regardless of three or four decades ago. Those little kids that have no clue what they are talking about, are right. I agree that they have no clue what they are talking about, but they are right.

As far as the thread... I was just shocked to see Strahan the second player listed. He was, along with Reggie White, the best LDE in the history of the game. A beast against the run, and the record holder for sacks in a single season. If that does not define a complete player, then I don't know what does. He has a ring. He has the longevity, I thought he would have been much higher. And then to see Kurt Warner, Strahan's own teammate... hold onto the ball, take sack after sack, showed no pocket presence once so ever, and then fumbled every single ******* time a defensive player came near him... and THAT guy is ahead of him. If Warner had at least three or four more years like the 2 he had in St. Louis and his last 2 in Arizona, then I would have no problem with it, but he basically had 5 good to great years. That's it. The rest? He was in QB competitions with guys like Eli Manning, Matt Leinart and Josh McCown or playing like dog ****.

1999 - Warner's best year was his first year. Ridiculous numbers: 41 TDs to 13 INTs. Came in and had his second best post season performance in his first playoff game. He threw for 391 yards and 5 TDs (83% completion percentage). But people forget that this guy played like complete dog **** in the NFC Championship game against Tampa Bay and barely made it to the SB. The greatest show on turf won 11-6. He played like ******* dog ****. He did redeem himself with a great SB performance and a memorable duel with Steve McNair.

The next year, 2000, he played in 11 games and threw 18 INTs. First round loss... 3 more INTs. I don't consider that a very good year to be honest.

Then in 2001, his last good year in St. Louis, he threw for nearly 5,000 yards and 36 TDs. Had a pretty solid Super Bowl performance against NE, but a loss.

Ended up playing like dog **** in 2002 as the Rams started 0-3 thanks to Warner's 7 INTs to just 1 TD. Broke his finger in game 4, came back late in the season and played like **** again. Went 0-5 as a starter.

Got benched in 2003 after he had one of the worst games I have ever seen a QB have. Sacked 6 times, fumbled 6 times. Marc Bulger took over. Warner's career was over with the Rams.

Signed with the Giants in 2004 and played like dog ****. He fumbled 12 times in the first 7 games. Was sacked seemingly 5 to 7 times a game. Somehow the Giants kept winning. Eli took over midway through the season. Warner went to Arizona.

2005 was an injury plagued year and then, he actually had a QB battle with Josh McCown (Not a good player). Warner eventually won the QB job for the 2006 season.

Warner started 5 games in 2006. Lost QB job to NFL bust, Matt Leinart. That marks 5, count them, 5 straight years of doing nothing.

2007 season was Warner's best since 2001. Once again in a QB battle with Leinart, Warner eventually took over the reigns after the two swapped time in back-to-back games. He threw for over 3,400 yards and 27 TDs in just 11 starts (14 games).

2008 was Warner's second best season. A true MVP caliber season (other QBs were better in 2008 though), but he was amazing as he led the Cardinal's to their first SB appearance. He threw for nearly 4,600 yards, 30 TDs to just 14 INTs and had a great post season run. Played a phenomenal game against PHI in the NFC championship game and then played great against PIT in the SB. Another SB loss though.

2009 was another fantastic season and had Warner's single greatest game in the divisional playoffs against Aaron Rodgers and the Packers. Throwing for 379 yards and 5 TDs, 0 INTs and just 4 incompletions in a 51-45 shootout. His greatest game of his career. Finished his career against the eventual SB champs, the Saints, in a 45-17 loss.



Really, 4 Hall of Fame caliber seasons? 1 very good season between that and then mostly **** in between. And this is better than Michael Strahan? The guy had 141 career sacks. 22.5 in 2001 alone. 18.5 in 2003. Are ya kidding me? He's ahead of Larry Allen? Michael Irvin? Derrick Brooks? I don't even get how Brooks is ahead of Strahan.
It's true, Strahan was the second best LE to ever play the game when you consider how dominant he was as both a pass rusher and run stuffer.

I believe that Strahan and Reggie White are the two best run stuffing pass rushing DEs to ever play the game. (to clarify, I'm not saying Strahan is the 2nd best DE of all time).

Strahan's entire game was basically a carbon copy of Reggie White. He was a less dominant Reggie White. But he's still considered by many a top 10 pass rusher of all time.

How is a guy who's a top 10 pass rusher of all time only 99 on the list? I thought that was way too low for Stray.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by scottyboy View Post
please tell me you're just talking in terms of style and you're not comparing will smith to one of the greatest DE's of all time.
Very much in terms of style, but through their first 6 seasons they weren't all that different. Strahan wasn't the 18-20 sack guy he became later just yet.

He just reminds me of the early strahan, and I just hope he can take that next step as he matures :)
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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nice to see the Browns dominate the 70's with Paul Warfield, Ozzie Newsome, and Marion Motley.

Ogden getting his props was pretty cool as well
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