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Old 11-01-2010, 04:32 PM    (permalink
Crimson79
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Let me go on record as saying that Suh is the better player, but I don't think people are giving enough thought to the fact that Suh is surrounded by far better talent on the DL.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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i think KVB, Avril, and SLH are the lucky ones, not suh
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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Could you imagine if the Lions can't get either of the top two CB's if they get Robert Quinn. :)
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by K Train View Post
i think KVB, Avril, and SLH are the lucky ones, not suh
You may have a case for that. Vanden Bosch had 4.5 sacks all of 2008 and 3.0 sacks all of 2009. Not he has 4.0 in 7 games.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by lowlife View Post
Sapp was the last one to in 05 or 06. La'Roi Glover and he also both got like 15 each back in 2000.

Kevin Williams got 10.5 in his rookie season. I believe Darrell Russell did too.

It is entirely possible, but there's just way too much projection going on in this thread based on 7 or 8 games.
Rod Coleman had 10.5 in 2005, too.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by GatorsBullsFan View Post
I really think Tyson Alualu isn't getting the respect he deserves in this discussion
Yeah, the discussion really should have been McCoy vs. Alualu vs Odrick vs. Price, etc. Suh was in his own class.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by StaticGator View Post
You may have a case for that. Vanden Bosch had 4.5 sacks all of 2008 and 3.0 sacks all of 2009. Not he has 4.0 in 7 games.
i think KVB is a fine football player, but 31 sacks in 3 seasons with haynesworth and 7 in 2 seasons without him says something.

now with suh as a rookie hes on pace to borderline double digit sacks again.

suh is a beast, he will unanimously be the best interior dlineman in the league soon, i felt completely comfortable making that prediction watching him in college and he has given me no reason to shy away from it now.

with suh and calvin being 2 of my favorite prospects ever, lions games are being watched on my sunday ticket pretty frequently now. i might be a closet lions fan
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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I just don't see how you could discount production because they were similar cases.

They were both in the same conference, at quality schools, and faced a lot of the same opponents, and Suh produced more as a senior than McCoy produced in 3 full seasons, and Suh's junior year was still dominant, it's not like McCoy even did anything like that.

So the argument was that McCoy had some wicked first step, and that would translate better, so numbers should be tossed out the window. They show up at the combine, and have almost identical 40 yard dash, and their 10-20 yard splits were close as well, with Suh being like 12-15 pounds heavier and about 2x as strong.

Ok, then that didn't mean anything either, because McCoy's mystical first step couldn't be gauged in numbers, or stop watches, and he should still be rated higher.

Then there were those of us who use logic looking at each other like, FFS, have you watched Suh play? The dude was dragging down QBs and blowing up RBs with 2-3 defenders draped all over him and holding him.

Best defensive line prospect this decade, and McCoy wasn't as good as Ellis or Dorsey a few years ago. I LOVE Ellis and Dorsey too, and I'm pretty biased, the Saints took Ellis, and Dorsey is a guy from a local school who I've seen a ton of, and they shouldn't be in the discussion with Suh, and McCoy wasn't even as good as them.

I think people really didn't realize how much more powerful Suh is, because his weight doesn't tell the story on just how freakishly strong he is.

"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at hte next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
I just don't see how you could discount production because they were similar cases.

They were both in the same conference, at quality schools, and faced a lot of the same opponents, and Suh produced more as a senior than McCoy produced in 3 full seasons, and Suh's junior year was still dominant, it's not like McCoy even did anything like that.

So the argument was that McCoy had some wicked first step, and that would translate better, so numbers should be tossed out the window. They show up at the combine, and have almost identical 40 yard dash, and their 10-20 yard splits were close as well, with Suh being like 12-15 pounds heavier and about 2x as strong.

Ok, then that didn't mean anything either, because McCoy's mystical first step couldn't be gauged in numbers, or stop watches, and he should still be rated higher.

Then there were those of us who use logic looking at each other like, FFS, have you watched Suh play? The dude was dragging down QBs and blowing up RBs with 2-3 defenders draped all over him and holding him.

Best defensive line prospect this decade, and McCoy wasn't as good as Ellis or Dorsey a few years ago. I LOVE Ellis and Dorsey too, and I'm pretty biased, the Saints took Ellis, and Dorsey is a guy from a local school who I've seen a ton of, and they shouldn't be in the discussion with Suh, and McCoy wasn't even as good as them.

I think people really didn't realize how much more powerful Suh is, because his weight doesn't tell the story on just how freakishly strong he is.

"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at hte next level!"

The hell he won't, lol
.
+a million

couldnt have said it better. for me it was Suh and Berry as the elite prospects, and mccoy was somewhere around 11th

i dont think mccoy is bad, but i would have dorsey, raji (who i wasnt crazy about as a 34NT), ngata (who i loved so so so so much so clearly hed go to the ravens), and maybe even okoye as better prospects than mccoy. I wasnt crazy about ellis.

If im ranking DT prospects from the last decade im going

Suh
the rest, including ngata aka the former DT love of my life

im sig quoting the bold lol
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 11-02-2010, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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Wait, what? He's 8 games into his rookie season. He's playing amazing football, but calm down with the homerism.

I love me some Suh, but jeez.
Are you saying that, that arguement couldn't be made right now? I'd love to hear you make that arguement that there's no way Suh can be argued as a top 3 DT right now. I think it's a no-brainer, as it stands ...

And -- I've seen some people bring up Sammie Lee Hill as a huge beneficiary with Suh ... it's more Corey Williams as he's the starter ... Corey has been playing a Pro Bowl level himself, he's really getting the rewards from Suh ... SLH has been great though. Hell -- look at the entire DL:

KVB - 4 sacks
Corey Williams - 1 sack(blowing plays up consistently behind the LOS regardless, playing at a Pro Bowl level)
Cliff Avril - 3 sacks
Turk McBride - 2 sacks
Lawrence Jackson - 1 sack
SLH - 1.5 sacks


19/23 sacks comes from the Defensive Line ... the Lions have improved in every statistical category and ever since replacing Jonathan Wade ... dare I say, they've been GOOD on defense? Suh is changing a lot of things in Motown.
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Old 11-02-2010, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Halfway through their rookie years and people already want to throw McCoy under the bus for not being on pace for 10 sacks his rookie year.
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Old 11-02-2010, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SRogers92 View Post
Are you saying that, that arguement couldn't be made right now? I'd love to hear you make that arguement that there's no way Suh can be argued as a top 3 DT right now. I think it's a no-brainer, as it stands ...

And -- I've seen some people bring up Sammie Lee Hill as a huge beneficiary with Suh ... it's more Corey Williams as he's the starter ... Corey has been playing a Pro Bowl level himself, he's really getting the rewards from Suh ... SLH has been great though. Hell -- look at the entire DL:

KVB - 4 sacks
Corey Williams - 1 sack(blowing plays up consistently behind the LOS regardless, playing at a Pro Bowl level)
Cliff Avril - 3 sacks
Turk McBride - 2 sacks
Lawrence Jackson - 1 sack
SLH - 1.5 sacks


19/23 sacks comes from the Defensive Line ... the Lions have improved in every statistical category and ever since replacing Jonathan Wade ... dare I say, they've been GOOD on defense? Suh is changing a lot of things in Motown.
Well, they are still only ranked 27th in run defense. But I really think Suh has been amazing so far. I he can keep this up... Wow. I was really excited about Detroits DL before the season, and so far they haven't disappointed. If they can just fix that secondary and get a stud DE they could have a nasty defense, despite not having much quality at LB. I never got why people had McCoy ranked higher than Suh leading up to the draft...
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Old 11-02-2010, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Halfway through their rookie years and people already want to throw McCoy under the bus for not being on pace for 10 sacks his rookie year.
see thats the thing people arent getting....people are just saying mccoy has never been better than suh, and that remains true early on in their pro careers. no one is throwing him under a bus, but i refuse to insult the house of spears himself by saying that any DT in the draft was near his level

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Well, they are still only ranked 27th in run defense. But I really think Suh has been amazing so far. I he can keep this up... Wow. I was really excited about Detroits DL before the season, and so far they haven't disappointed. If they can just fix that secondary and get a stud DE they could have a nasty defense, despite not having much quality at LB. I never got why people had McCoy ranked higher than Suh leading up to the draft...
i think their d will be alot better with stafford back moving the offense. they still need help at corner and LB, this team will be making a deep playoff run in the upcoming years just like the former nobodies in arizona and new orleans did....making an explosive high powered offense and really really increasing the talent level on defense
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 11-02-2010, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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people are just saying mccoy has never been better than suh
Anybody who says that clearly did not watch college football in 2008.
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Old 11-02-2010, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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ok....so he had a standout year as a junior....tons od dlinemen are dominating in college and flop right away in the pros, suh was and still is amazing. what do you want me to say? that mccoy will never again be anywhere near suhs level? i do believe that but you get hanged around here for even thinking it "zomg i cant believe someone would say that after only 8 weeks into their careers"

suh is the truth, mccoy is a first step
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 11-02-2010, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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I think people really didn't realize how much more powerful Suh is, because his weight doesn't tell the story on just how freakishly strong he is.

"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at hte next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
Lots of ultra strong guys in college dominate. I thought Suh was a man-child too, but I never expected All-Pro numbers from him this soon.

edit: forgot two key words...
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Old 11-02-2010, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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Is it possible that Suh is the best defensive lineman in the NFL already?
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Old 11-02-2010, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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Is it possible that Suh is the best defensive lineman in the NFL already?
I would really like to see someone make this argument if they can. Even though stats are not everything, Suh as a DT is 3rd amongst defensive linemen (8th overall) in sacks, the only lineman with an INT in the top 20 (based on sacks), and he had the TD.

Like I said, stats are not everything. I haven't seen enough of the Lions to see his play and make an accurate statement, so for those of you who have, up to this point with this small sample of Suh, how does he rank up next to some of the better DL in the league? Guys like Mario Williams, Kevin Williams, Jared Allen, Julius Peppers ect..
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Old 11-02-2010, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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Im a Bucs fan and have watched McCoy all season. He has very little help, we will need two new DE and his running mate Price has not played almost all season. With that being said Suh is the FAR BETTER PLAYER. He was last year and is this year. Not saying McCoy is not good or that on day he can't be great but right now SUH is GREAT.
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Old 11-03-2010, 03:03 AM    (permalink
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Is it possible that Suh is the best defensive lineman in the NFL already?
Nope.

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Old 11-03-2010, 03:28 AM    (permalink
Razor
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Nope.

Don't forget about



who is playing at an All-Pro level this year.
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Old 11-03-2010, 04:08 AM    (permalink
Rosebud
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I would really like to see someone make this argument if they can. Even though stats are not everything, Suh as a DT is 3rd amongst defensive linemen (8th overall) in sacks, the only lineman with an INT in the top 20 (based on sacks), and he had the TD.

Like I said, stats are not everything. I haven't seen enough of the Lions to see his play and make an accurate statement, so for those of you who have, up to this point with this small sample of Suh, how does he rank up next to some of the better DL in the league? Guys like Mario Williams, Kevin Williams, Jared Allen, Julius Peppers ect..
Based solely off of the Giants game there's no way I rank Suh above Peppers, Ware, Ngata, Wilfork or Osi this season. But Osi's in the middle of a career year while Suh's just a rookie, so if Suh's play holds or improves over the next few years I'm sure there'll be a very good case to be made.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 11-03-2010, 04:40 AM    (permalink
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You know the kid has game if people are comparing him to the best Dlineman in the NFL, and not whether or not he's simply among the best DTs in the game.

If Suh can avoid injury the next 8 games, forget about the pro bowl, I really believe Ndamukong has a shot to be a rookie 1st team AP All-Pro.
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Old 11-03-2010, 06:49 AM    (permalink
AntoinCD
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Gotta agree with Tackle and Razor here. As I said in the Rookie watch thread the only defensive tackles I have above Suh at the minute are Ngata and Wilfork. Other defensive linemen I would have Tuck, Osi, Freeney and not much else
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Old 11-03-2010, 09:06 AM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Default While McCoy was a very good player coming out....

the comparisons to Suh were completely laughable and I said it then. Suh is one of those prospectst that is so good, you end up downgrading him because you can't believe what your eyes are showing you. Mike Mayock's comments about McCoy being better was nothing short of idiotic. Suh is better ACROSS THE BOARD, and that how includes the "first step" category. Did anyone see the Sports Science pience on Suh? He had they fastest reaction time they have every recorded inclusive of all positions, and that means faster than Larry Fitzgerald. Suh is just better all the way around. And YES, he is able to rag doll NFL lineman.
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