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Old 11-05-2010, 11:18 PM    (permalink
elway=goat
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Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) View Post
Using 1-3 round picks as an argument for having great offensive players is ********, unless you think the Lions had one of the most unstoppable offenses of all time.

Harrington
Rogers
Mike Williams
Roy Williams
Kevin Jones.

STUDLY AS ****

What!? That is the lamest Manning defense I have ever heard. Using the Lions as an example? The fact is this my friend, you find the best talent in the first 1-3 rounds, if it wasnt the case then why even have a draft? Because one teams scouting department and operations were run by Matt Millan does not mean we should negate the fact that the Colts have surrounded Manning with the best talent possible.

Players are picked in the first 3 rounds for a reason, because they have the best chance to be productive. Is the draft a crap shoot? Absolutly, but you are more likely to find quality talent, system players and athletes in the 1-3 rounds, especially on offense.

You are basically saying that we should look past Manning being surrounded by elite 1-3 round talent his entire career because the Lions are bad at drafting. Now that is a ******** argument.
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Old 11-05-2010, 11:23 PM    (permalink
holt_bruce81
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Why wasn't Isaac Bruce in the top 100? His stats say he deserves to be IMO.
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Old 11-06-2010, 03:29 AM    (permalink
boknows34
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Originally Posted by holt_bruce81 View Post
Why wasn't Isaac Bruce in the top 100? His stats say he deserves to be IMO.
TO's stats are even greater. He has passed Bruce already for receptions and is now 2nd all-time for yds and 3rd ever for rec TDs. Same for Cris Carter who has more more catches and a lot more TDs. Steve Largent retired #1 all-time for receptions, rec yds and rec TDs, breaking Hutson's record of 99 TDs which had stood for over 40 years. I appreciate Bruce was a fine player and your personal favourite but I'd rank him behind all 3 of the receivers I mentioned and none of them made Top 100 either. Largent was a huge snub imo.
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Old 11-06-2010, 04:06 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by elway=goat View Post
Where did I say the talent makes him look good? Do I think Manning is overrated, yes. For the sopposed football god that he is, I have watched him crap the bed waaayy to much in the playoffs to annoint him the goat.

But do I think his talent makes him? No.. However, It is undeniable that he has had more to work with throughout his career via 1-3 round picks on offense than any of the other elite QB's of his generation and probably the 80's and 90's outside of Dallas and the 49ers.

Which is why I make the point, of all his fanboys who say players where were drafted in the first round to third round are only good because of Manning. Which is rediculous.
Okay, so what? He's had Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark and Joseph Addai as his primary skills position players throughout his 13 year career. 2 Great players and three above average players... HOLY **** BATMAN, BOAT LOADS OF TALENT EVERYWHERE!!!!! 1st AND 3rd ROUND DRAFT PICKS... AWESOME SUCCESS!!!!! Since the Colts drafted Manning here's the names of the second and third round offensive players the Colts have drafted:

1. Mike Pollack (Round 2 - 2008
2. Tony Ugoh (Round 2 - 2007)
3. Ben Hartsock (Round 3 - 2004)

Look at the names of those guys!!!! Look how many 2nd and 3rd round weapons. OFFENSIVE JUGGERNAUTS!!!! I don't think any other QB has benefited from 2nd & 3rd round draft picks more than Peyton Manning.

What baffles me is the pass Marvin Harrison has gotten in playoffs. Harrison is a ***** and Ty Law made him his ***** game after game. Ike Taylor has ***** slapped him. Harrison is a great regular season player and completely disappears in the playoffs, can't even ******* get open and people blame Peyton. Forget about his O-Line which is comprised of 5th and 6th round players that can't get any push and only looks halfway decent in pass protection because Manning is a ******* surgeon and picks defenses apart. Really, since 2003 (his first MVP), Peyton has been a ******* animal.

His comeback against TB in 2003? Name another QB that brings his team from a 35-14 deficit with 5 minutes to play and wins the game in OT. Name another QB that does that? I'll tell you that answer. It's never happened. And probably never will. That happened in 2003. What else happened in 2003? Those great Patriots were up 31-10 in the 3rd QT when Manning came back and made the game 38-34 and brought his team down to the 1 yard line to win the game. That great offensive line that blows teams off the ball ended up getting stuffed. Poor Peyton. Can't win the big one. 2003 playoffs he kicked the living **** out of Denver and Kansas City and then lost to the Patriots in terrible weather... and one of the best defenses in the NFL. Who showed up that game? Marvin Harrison? He was made a *****, like he usually is in December. Ty Law had 3 INTs in that game, the Colts receivers got their asses kicked, the O-Line was killed. Patriots ended up winning the SB. QB rating in the playoffs... 106.4.


2004 he only broke the passing TD record with 49, but that's not really worth mentioning now is it? QB rating of 121? Please, that's only because he had Marvin Harrison. 3 Colts receivers with 1,000 yards and 10 TDs (a record)? That must have been a product of 3 top 10 picks at WR. Season once again ended with a dominating performance from the Patriots defense. But they were garbage. They ended up winning back-to-back Super Bowls. QB rating in the playoffs... 107.4.


2005? Defense got a lot better and they started 13-0. Ended up with the top QB rating in the NFL and a 13-3 team. Playoffs? A BS call made the game closer and Manning took advantage. Threw a quick TD and lead his team down to field goal range where Mike Vanderjat missed terribly. Lost to the SB Champion Steelers. QB rating in the playoffs... 90.9.


2006... he won the SB. Guess that's all that really needs to be said. Oh, he also had the biggest comeback in playoff history against the Patriots. Not that it matters. And that was probably his worst individual playoff performance from 2003 to 2009. QB rating in the playoffs... 70.5.


2007... in the divisional playoffs against the Chargers he only threw for 400+ yards and 3 TDs... and lost. He really sucked hard that year. Never mind the defense blowing 4 different leads. QB rating in the playoffs... 97.7.


2008... just another MVP regular season after knee surgery prior to the start of the season. Only 7 4th come from behind wins that year. Chargers beat them on a game tying drive by Rivers in regulation then won won the game on a TD in OT. Peyton never got the ball. How terrible. QB rating in the playoffs... 90.4.


2009... yeah, his 4th MVP, and lead the team to the SB. He threw for his 7th 300 yard game in the postseason during a route of a pretty damn good Jets defense. The 7 300 yards passing games in the post season isn't a record or anything. Oh, wait, it actually is. This dude seriously has done squat in the post season. Lost in the Super Bowl to the Saints, but he only threw for 333 yards and 1 TD and 1 game ending INT. It's not like he had a running game. It's not like the defense could get off the field for the entire second QT. QB rating in the playoffs... 99.0.


3 out of the 7 years... The Colts lost in the playoffs to the eventual SB champs. 1 out of the 7 years they lost in the Super Bowl. They won the Super Bowl once. That leaves two playoffs where they lost in the playoffs to a team that did not win it all. In one of those game, the Colts defense gave up 4 leads while Peyton threw for 400 yards and 3 TDs.


Now it looks like he's on pace for another MVP season and he just passed John Elway for passing yards in a career (3rd all-time) and just passed Marino for most 300 yard passing games in a career (1st all-time). The guy is in year 13 and he's playing like he's still in his prime. The Colts offense is built around Peyton Manning. They've drafted 2 WRs in round 1 since Manning (Gonzales being a colossal reach) because they fit that type of hurry up, spread offense that Peyton runs. Manning is Dan Marino with a Super Bowl ring and less injuries. The guy is simply put, the greatest QB of all-time. No one is better. No one.
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Last edited by BigBanger : 11-06-2010 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 11-06-2010, 08:36 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
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Peyton is great, no doubt, but there's no arguing he has been less than great in the playoffs.

Matter of fact, he's been consistently underwhelming in the playoffs and has rarely elevated his game to seize the moment.

THe bigger the moment postseason, and the tighter Peyton plays, IMO.


His record in the playoffs is why no matter how great his regular season stats are when he retires, as of right now, many fans will never rank Peyton as a top 3 QB alltime.

Just saying,...!
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:56 AM    (permalink
elway=goat
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Originally Posted by BigBanger View Post
Okay, so what? He's had Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark and Joseph Addai as his primary skills position players throughout his 13 year career. 2 Great players and three above average players... HOLY **** BATMAN, BOAT LOADS OF TALENT EVERYWHERE!!!!! 1st AND 3rd ROUND DRAFT PICKS... AWESOME SUCCESS!!!!! Since the Colts drafted Manning here's the names of the second and third round offensive players the Colts have drafted:

1. Mike Pollack (Round 2 - 2008
2. Tony Ugoh (Round 2 - 2007)
3. Ben Hartsock (Round 3 - 2004)

Look at the names of those guys!!!! Look how many 2nd and 3rd round weapons. OFFENSIVE JUGGERNAUTS!!!! I don't think any other QB has benefited from 2nd & 3rd round draft picks more than Peyton Manning.

What baffles me is the pass Marvin Harrison has gotten in playoffs. Harrison is a ***** and Ty Law made him his ***** game after game. Ike Taylor has ***** slapped him. Harrison is a great regular season player and completely disappears in the playoffs, can't even ******* get open and people blame Peyton. Forget about his O-Line which is comprised of 5th and 6th round players that can't get any push and only looks halfway decent in pass protection because Manning is a ******* surgeon and picks defenses apart. Really, since 2003 (his first MVP), Peyton has been a ******* animal.

His comeback against TB in 2003? Name another QB that brings his team from a 35-14 deficit with 5 minutes to play and wins the game in OT. Name another QB that does that? I'll tell you that answer. It's never happened. And probably never will. That happened in 2003. What else happened in 2003? Those great Patriots were up 31-10 in the 3rd QT when Manning came back and made the game 38-34 and brought his team down to the 1 yard line to win the game. That great offensive line that blows teams off the ball ended up getting stuffed. Poor Peyton. Can't win the big one. 2003 playoffs he kicked the living **** out of Denver and Kansas City and then lost to the Patriots in terrible weather... and one of the best defenses in the NFL. Who showed up that game? Marvin Harrison? He was made a *****, like he usually is in December. Ty Law had 3 INTs in that game, the Colts receivers got their asses kicked, the O-Line was killed. Patriots ended up winning the SB. QB rating in the playoffs... 106.4.


2004 he only broke the passing TD record with 49, but that's not really worth mentioning now is it? QB rating of 121? Please, that's only because he had Marvin Harrison. 3 Colts receivers with 1,000 yards and 10 TDs (a record)? That must have been a product of 3 top 10 picks at WR. Season once again ended with a dominating performance from the Patriots defense. But they were garbage. They ended up winning back-to-back Super Bowls. QB rating in the playoffs... 107.4.


2005? Defense got a lot better and they started 13-0. Ended up with the top QB rating in the NFL and a 13-3 team. Playoffs? A BS call made the game closer and Manning took advantage. Threw a quick TD and lead his team down to field goal range where Mike Vanderjat missed terribly. Lost to the SB Champion Steelers. QB rating in the playoffs... 90.9.


2006... he won the SB. Guess that's all that really needs to be said. Oh, he also had the biggest comeback in playoff history against the Patriots. Not that it matters. And that was probably his worst individual playoff performance from 2003 to 2009. QB rating in the playoffs... 70.5.


2007... in the divisional playoffs against the Chargers he only threw for 400+ yards and 3 TDs... and lost. He really sucked hard that year. Never mind the defense blowing 4 different leads. QB rating in the playoffs... 97.7.


2008... just another MVP regular season after knee surgery prior to the start of the season. Only 7 4th come from behind wins that year. Chargers beat them on a game tying drive by Rivers in regulation then won won the game on a TD in OT. Peyton never got the ball. How terrible. QB rating in the playoffs... 90.4.


2009... yeah, his 4th MVP, and lead the team to the SB. He threw for his 7th 300 yard game in the postseason during a route of a pretty damn good Jets defense. The 7 300 yards passing games in the post season isn't a record or anything. Oh, wait, it actually is. This dude seriously has done squat in the post season. Lost in the Super Bowl to the Saints, but he only threw for 333 yards and 1 TD and 1 game ending INT. It's not like he had a running game. It's not like the defense could get off the field for the entire second QT. QB rating in the playoffs... 99.0.


3 out of the 7 years... The Colts lost in the playoffs to the eventual SB champs. 1 out of the 7 years they lost in the Super Bowl. They won the Super Bowl once. That leaves two playoffs where they lost in the playoffs to a team that did not win it all. In one of those game, the Colts defense gave up 4 leads while Peyton threw for 400 yards and 3 TDs.


Now it looks like he's on pace for another MVP season and he just passed John Elway for passing yards in a career (3rd all-time) and just passed Marino for most 300 yard passing games in a career (1st all-time). The guy is in year 13 and he's playing like he's still in his prime. The Colts offense is built around Peyton Manning. They've drafted 2 WRs in round 1 since Manning (Gonzales being a colossal reach) because they fit that type of hurry up, spread offense that Peyton runs. Manning is Dan Marino with a Super Bowl ring and less injuries. The guy is simply put, the greatest QB of all-time. No one is better. No one.
Are you trolling or are you serious? I cant tell..

The fact remains, Manning has had more 1-3 round help than any QB in the modern game, and possibly history and its not close. Manning was destined to be great, but please stop acting like Manning makes everyone around him better, and they would be scrubs without him. The fact is, these were for the most part, all high round picks. Particularly everyone he has thrown the ball to throughout his career. That is a fact.

As far as the break down, are you kidding me? Also the GOAT comment is borderline offensive to anyone ho has watched football their entire life. First lets think about what GOAT means, its the greatest player ever. Not someone with the greatest potential, or someone who looks great and plays great, then when his team needs him the most craps the bed. Michael Jordan is the goat because he was the best, not because he put up stupid numbers(Wilt) but because when it mattered the most you knew he was going to come through and demoralize you. Does anyone ever feel that way about Manning? I sure dont. While I was at work, I was borderline offended by your rediculous statement so I did a google search, without much searching I found this..

Now keep in mind, this is a Pats homer website, however they break things down nicely. Not to turn this into a Brady vs. Manning debate, but I think it is necessary in this case.

http://www.patspulpit.com/2010/10/30...peyton-manning

Quote:
Peyton Manning is a winner of 1 Super Bowl and has a 9-9 record in the postseason. Many "pundits" will blame this on the fact that Peyton Manning did not have a defense. The truth actually lays on the shoulders of Peyton Manning, one of the biggest choke artists in NFL history. "The Complete and Unabridged Guide to Why Tom Brady is Better than Peyton Manning, Vol. II" covers this in detail greater than any other source in history. Not much has changed since that 2004 season. Until Peyton Manning won his lone Super Bowl title, he was a dreadful 3-6 in the postseason. The reason was not because of his defense, the reason was because of Manning. His 6 appearances in the postseason all yielded the same result: Manning choking and losing the game. Here are his playoff losses before he won his Super Bowl.

Year
Completions
Attempts
Yards
Touchdowns
Interceptions
Rating

1999
19
42
227
0
0
62.3

2000
17
32
194
1
0
82.0

2002
14
31
137
0
2
31.2

2003
23
47
237
1
4
35.5

2004
27
42
238
0
1
69.3

2005
22
38
290
1
0
90.9
Quote:
"Manning's quarterback ratings in 1999, 2002, 2003, and 2004 were all the worst rating he had in any game all season. His two best games were the ones in which he threw no interceptions.
If this isnt choking, what is?

Quote:
Then in 2006 Peyton Manning won the Super Bowl. After making the playoffs as a wild card team the Colts went 4-0 and became Super Bowl champions. Peyton Manning finally had a winning record in the postseason. His performances in the playoffs, however, had not changed."

Round
Completions
Attempts
Yards
Touchdowns
Interceptions
Rating

Wild Card
30
38
268
1
3
71.9

Divisional
15
30
170
0
2
39.6

Championship
27
47
349
1
1
79.1

Super Bowl
25
38
247
1
1
81.8
This is your GOAT, the field general, he can dissect any defense, turn scrubs into all pros? Lets keep going..

Quote:
"The fact is Peyton Manning is one of the most undeserving Super Bowl MVPs there ever has been. Peyton Manning's lone touchdown pass was a 53 yarder to Reggie Wayne on a play in which Wayne was unguarded at the snap and never picked up by any of the Bear's secondary. There was nothing special about that play except for the fact that it was the easiest throw Manning had all day. Aside from that free touchdown Manning was a pedestrian 24 of 37 for 194 yards and 1 interception for a miserable 66.7 passer rating while also losing a fumble. The Colts running back Dominic Rhodes ran all over the Bear's defense for 113 and 1 touchdown on 21 carries. The Colts maligned defense only allowed 10 points while forcing 5 turnovers and scoring a touchdown of its own. One cannot come up with any reasonable explanation to give Peyton Manning the MVP."
^^Speaks for itself

Quote:
"In 2007 and 2008 the Colts were bounced out in their first game each time by the San Diego Chargers. While Peyton Manning's quarterback rating was 97.7 in 2007 he tossed 2 interceptions. As "The almighty CHFF interception ladder" shows, throwing interceptions in the playoffs spells doom. In the 2008 loss the Colts offense mustered just 17 points despite the defense recovering a fumble and getting an interception with the Colts leading 17-14 in the second half."
The game you used in reference(400 yard game) and what this guy forgot to add was Manning failed twice in the redzone to give his team the lead. 3 and inches and 4 and inches. So yeah, he lit up the box score, but as I have said many times.. He chokes when the team needs him the most. Here I have more for you.

Quote:
"Trailing the Saints 17-24 with 5 minutes and 42 seconds left the Colts took possession with the chance to tie it up. The Colts ran 8 plays, all out of the shotgun formation. This is an important point because "pundits" are always quick to point out that Manning calls the plays and that he is like a coach on the field. Any good coach that has a running game averaging 5.2 yards per carry down 7 points with 5 minutes left in the Super Bowl does not call 8 straight shotgun plays. With the Colts in field goal range Manning fired a pass intended for Reggie Wayne. Saints cornerback Tracy Porter jumped the route and returned the ball 74 yards for the score and a 31-17 lead. Peyton Manning's performance was much different in the heated 4th quarter than it was during the first 3. This should surprise no one. As usual, Manning performed his worst when the pressure was on."
Here is another intresting note:

Quote:
People look at Manning' stats and say he had a relatively good game besides his one mistake. This is also not true. Here are the numbers that mattered in that game.


Quarter
Completions
Attempts
Yards
TD
INT
Rating
Rush
Yards
TD
Score

1-3
14
24
162
1
0
92.7
16
101
1
17-16

4th-Interception
8
13
82
0
1
47.6
3
-2
0
17-31

After the interception Manning threw for 84 meaningless yards that helped boost his quarterback rating. People look at his rating for the game and blame the defense. The truth is Peyton Manning choked when the game mattered most.
Now here is why your statements are rediculous, not only is Manning not the Goat he is not even the best QB of this generation.

Quote:
The TD-INT ratio is held to a superb standard here. Tom Brady's 4.05-1 ratio gave way to a 26-3 record. Meanwhile, his TD-INT ratio was an INT-TD ratio with Welker off the field.

Tom Brady's numbers in the postseason also looked a lot different before the Patriots got Randy Moss and Wes Welker.

Record
Completion
Attempts
Yards
Touchdowns
Interceptions
Rating
Super Bowl

2001-2006
12-2
295
486
3217
20
9
86.2
3

2007-2009
2-2
100
151
891
8
6
83.0
0
Quote:
As it turns out, Peyton Manning has a better postseason passer rating than Tom Brady. But passer rating doesn't correlate to winning games like the all powerful TD-INT ratio does. As you can see in the above chart, Tom Brady was an insane 12-2 because of his touchdown-interceptions ratio of 2.22-1. Compare that with his 1.33-1 ratio he had when he went 2-2 and you can see why Tom Brady has fallen to a mediocre record the last two postseasons. Tom Brady still trumps Peyton Manning in the postseason though. Comparing the two just shows how much more dominant Tom Brady is.
Rating
TD-INT
Record
Super Bowls

Tom Brady
85.5
1.87-1
14-4
3

Peyton Manning
87.6
1.47-1
9-9
1




Quote:
The final point is Tom Brady's performances in the Super Bowls he has played in. While the evidence compiled already uncovers Brady as the definitive winner, it is definitely important to recall the games that made Tom Brady a legend. With the help of CHFF's "The Complete and Unabridged Guide to Why Tom Brady is Better than Peyton Manning, Vol. II" I will recap Tom Brady's Super Bowls.
Quote:
The 2001 Super Bowl pitted the Patriots against the heavily favored Rams, led by Kurt Warner. After entering the 4th quarter with a 17-3 lead, the Patriots defense allowed the Rams to score two touchdowns and tie the game 17-17 with 1 minute and 30 seconds remaining. The CHFF's can take it from here. "New England took over on its own 17 with 81 seconds to play and no timeouts. The football establishment expected New England's inexperienced QB to take a knee and play for overtime. Instead, Brady completed 5 of 8 passes (one incompletion was an intentional spike) to put New England in range for a decisive field goal." "Brady led the only walk-off scoring drive in Super Bowl history."
Quote:
In the 2003 Super Bowl the Patriots faced off with the Carolina Panthers. The Patriots led 14-10 heading into the 4th quarter. This 4th quarter had some fireworks as 5 touchdowns were scored in the 4th quarter. An all too familiar situation happened when the Panthers tied the ball game up at 29-29. Panthers kicker John Kasay kicked the ensuing kickoff out of bounds, giving the Patriots the ball at the 40. The Patriots took possession of the ball with about a minute left with the game tied, just like against the Rams. Tom Brady completed 4 of 5 passes for 47 yards to get the Patriots in field goal range. "Brady became the youngest quarterback to win two Super Bowls and joined Hall of Famers Starr, Bradshaw and Montana as the only players in NFL history to win multiple Super Bowl MVP awards."
Quote:
The Patriots entered the 4th quarter of the 2004 Super Bowl against the Philadelphia Eagles tied 14-14. Tom Brady led the Patriots on two scoring drives to take a 24-14 lead. Tom Brady did not turn the ball over while Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb threw 2 interceptions in the 4th quarter. The Patriots won the Super Bowl 24-21. Tom Brady "completed 23 of 33 passes for 236 yards, 2 TDs and 0 INTs and a 110.2 passer rating - the second highest rating allowed by the Eagles defense all season."
Quote:
Then there is the 2007 Super Bowl against the New York Giants. The Patriots entered the 4th quarter with a 7-3 lead. The Giants finished off a drive that had been going on since the 3rd quarter and took the lead 10-7. With 7 minutes and 54 seconds remaining Brady led the Patriots on a 12 play touchdown drive that ate up 5 minutes and 12 seconds of the clock. While Brady had played horrible up to that point, he delivered when it mattered most by completing 7 of 11 passes for 71 yards and the go-ahead touchdown pass to take a 14-10 lead. The Giants took the ball with 2 minutes and 42 seconds remaining. On a drive in which cornerback Asante Samuel dropped what would have been the game-clinching interception and wide receiver David Tyree caught the ball with one hand and his helmet, the Giants took a 17-14 lead for good. Tom Brady had finally been defeated in the Super Bowl.
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In Tom Brady's 4 Super Bowls, opposing teams have scored 68.2% of their points (54 of 84) in the 4th quarter. Tom Brady's late-game heroics are the reason the Patriots have 3 Super Bowls and not zero. Tom Brady's performances in Super Bowls are also better than Peyton Manning's performances.

Completion
Attempt
Yards
Touchdowns
Interceptions
Rating
TD-INT
Record

Tom Brady
100
156
1001
7
1
94.5
7-1
3-1

Peyton Manning
56
83
580
2
2
85.4
1-1
1-1
Quote:
So "The Unfinished Story of Why Tom Brady is Better than Peyton Manning" is finished. A lot has changed in football since coldhardfootballfacts.com published "The Complete and Unabridged Guide to Why Tom Brady is Better than Peyton Manning, Vol. II" way back in the 2005 offseason. Both players career are far from over, but one thing that has not changed is this: Tom Brady is better than Peyton Manning.
Before people cry about defense, think about this..

Colts average ppg per loss is 14.

Pats average ppg per loss is 18.

Lastly not only has Manning had the better offense, while posting mostly infurior numbers(unless he is playing Denver) he also has to plays in doors in a controlled enviroment.

That my friends, is why Manning is not and can not be the goat. How can he be the Goat if he is not even the best QB of his generation.
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:05 AM    (permalink
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You seriously quote a Pats website to make your point on Manning?
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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What!? That is the lamest Manning defense I have ever heard. Using the Lions as an example? The fact is this my friend, you find the best talent in the first 1-3 rounds, if it wasnt the case then why even have a draft? Because one teams scouting department and operations were run by Matt Millan does not mean we should negate the fact that the Colts have surrounded Manning with the best talent possible.

Players are picked in the first 3 rounds for a reason, because they have the best chance to be productive. Is the draft a crap shoot? Absolutly, but you are more likely to find quality talent, system players and athletes in the 1-3 rounds, especially on offense.

You are basically saying that we should look past Manning being surrounded by elite 1-3 round talent his entire career because the Lions are bad at drafting. Now that is a ******** argument.
So you really think that if the Lions didn't take those guys, they would have fallen out of the first 3 rounds? Because that's what you're suggesting. The bottom line is that the round someone is drafted in really doesn't mean anything once they're in the league. Ochocinco was a 2nd rounder and Houshmandzadeh was a 7th rounder, does that mean Carson Palmer wasn't throwing to great talent in the middle of this decade?

What does a Manning down year look like? We don't know. When his guys go down, he does not miss a single beat. Now that means one of two things are the case: Either the Colts have the deepest organization in the history of the NFL or Peyton is a machine.
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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You seriously quote a Pats website to make your point on Manning?
You cant argue those facts. sir

Last edited by elway=goat : 11-06-2010 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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Manning is the best regular season QB
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:17 AM    (permalink
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So you really think that if the Lions didn't take those guys, they would have fallen out of the first 3 rounds? Because that's what you're suggesting. The bottom line is that the round someone is drafted in really doesn't mean anything once they're in the league. Ochocinco was a 2nd rounder and Houshmandzadeh was a 7th rounder, does that mean Carson Palmer wasn't throwing to great talent in the middle of this decade?

What does a Manning down year look like? We don't know. When his guys go down, he does not miss a single beat. Now that means one of two things are the case: Either the Colts have the deepest organization in the history of the NFL or Peyton is a machine.
I am not saying that at all, sir. I am not understanding how you came to that conclusion. I simply stated, down playing Mannings supporting cast because the Lions are bad at drafting is being dishonest with yourself. Or clear homerism/favoritism.

My statement has been fair, you generally find the best talent in the first 3 rounds, it is why they get the most hype, they get scouted and dissected the most, and get payed the most.

So when people down play Mr. Mannings supporting class because its Mr. Manning making them good, I have to blow the bs lovefest whistle and point out he has had more first round/second round/third round talent around him than any other starting QB.

The real question is, is if they are so confident that Manning can turn poop into gold, why have they continued to draft offensive(specifically skill positions) throughout his career?
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Were pretty close to having a sub forum for the Manning GOAT debates.
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Old 11-06-2010, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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Were pretty close to having a sub forum for the Manning GOAT debates.
No kidding!
That debate alone can go on all day every day.
We've seen it before.... doesn't Manning usually win about 60-40 percent?
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:04 PM    (permalink
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Are you trolling or are you serious? I cant tell..

The fact remains, Manning has had more 1-3 round help than any QB in the modern game, and possibly history and its not close. Manning was destined to be great, but please stop acting like Manning makes everyone around him better, and they would be scrubs without him. The fact is, these were for the most part, all high round picks. Particularly everyone he has thrown the ball to throughout his career. That is a fact.

As far as the break down, are you kidding me? Also the GOAT comment is borderline offensive to anyone ho has watched football their entire life. First lets think about what GOAT means, its the greatest player ever. Not someone with the greatest potential, or someone who looks great and plays great, then when his team needs him the most craps the bed. Michael Jordan is the goat because he was the best, not because he put up stupid numbers(Wilt) but because when it mattered the most you knew he was going to come through and demoralize you. Does anyone ever feel that way about Manning? I sure dont. While I was at work, I was borderline offended by your rediculous statement so I did a google search, without much searching I found this..

Now keep in mind, this is a Pats homer website, however they break things down nicely. Not to turn this into a Brady vs. Manning debate, but I think it is necessary in this case.

http://www.patspulpit.com/2010/10/30...peyton-manning





If this isnt choking, what is?


This is your GOAT, the field general, he can dissect any defense, turn scrubs into all pros? Lets keep going..



^^Speaks for itself


The game you used in reference(400 yard game) and what this guy forgot to add was Manning failed twice in the redzone to give his team the lead. 3 and inches and 4 and inches. So yeah, he lit up the box score, but as I have said many times.. He chokes when the team needs him the most. Here I have more for you.


Here is another intresting note:



Now here is why your statements are rediculous, not only is Manning not the Goat he is not even the best QB of this generation.



Rating
TD-INT
Record
Super Bowls

Tom Brady
85.5
1.87-1
14-4
3

Peyton Manning
87.6
1.47-1
9-9
1












Before people cry about defense, think about this..

Colts average ppg per loss is 14.

Pats average ppg per loss is 18.

Lastly not only has Manning had the better offense, while posting mostly infurior numbers(unless he is playing Denver) he also has to plays in doors in a controlled enviroment.

That my friends, is why Manning is not and can not be the goat. How can he be the Goat if he is not even the best QB of his generation.
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Old 11-06-2010, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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Peyton Manning so far ahead compared to Tom Brady is probably my biggest gripe second only to Cris Carter not being on the list. Brett Favre ahead of John Elway and Tom Brady? Really, I don't get that one either. I know he has that iron man streak, but that shouldn't be the deciding factor.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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are there any complaints for the top 10 besides peyton manning at #8??

to me its perfectly fine.. besides the above comment (don't agree with peyton at #8, all tho i can see why)... also, was the comment on having more sacks then games played about reggie white or Lawrence Taylor? I forgot, thank you
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Old 11-08-2010, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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are there any complaints for the top 10 besides peyton manning at #8??

to me its perfectly fine.. besides the above comment (don't agree with peyton at #8, all tho i can see why)... also, was the comment on having more sacks then games played about reggie white or Lawrence Taylor? I forgot, thank you
Other than Peyton Manning I only see one other thing wrong with that list. I'd switch spots with Montana and Taylor.
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:57 AM    (permalink
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Are you trolling or are you serious? I cant tell..

The fact remains, Manning has had more 1-3 round help than any QB in the modern game, and possibly history and its not close. Manning was destined to be great, but please stop acting like Manning makes everyone around him better, and they would be scrubs without him. The fact is, these were for the most part, all high round picks. Particularly everyone he has thrown the ball to throughout his career. That is a fact.
What you mean is first round skill position players. Bill Polian's drafting style is to draft WRs and RBs that fit the Colts scheme. The Colts scheme is built entirely around Peyton Manning and 3 WR sets. They ignore other key positions like offensive line and defensive line. They draft offensive linemen in the mid to late rounds. They scheme their way to mediocre line play. Without Peyton picking up blitz packages and checking to hot routes, getting rid of the ball extremely quickly, then they're atrocious. They draft mid round CBs, DTs and LBs and scheme their way to mediocrity on defense. That's who the Colts are. They have tried to build a championship team completely around the QB position. Name another team that has that capability or even attempted that? Name another team that has actually won a Super Bowl with that formula? No other QB has ever been given skill players in exchange for garbage linemen on both sides of the ball. Maybe one day, with how the NFL is changing and evolving to a passing game, defense and good offensive line play wont be as important. Right now, he's faced better more physical teams better suited for the post season. Just look at the teams that won the SB in the 2000s. Defense and a great running game have been crucial. Defensive rankings for SB champions in 00s:

'01 / '03 / '04 Patriots (#24 Ranked, #7 Ranked, #9 Ranked)
'05 / '08 Steelers (#1 Ranked, #4 Ranked)
'07 Giants (#7 Ranked)
'00 Ravens (#2 Ranked)
'02 Buccaneers (#1 Ranked)
'06 Colts (#21 Ranked)
'09 Saints (#25 Ranked)...


Pretty much, a great majority of the time, a top 10 defense is a must. A top 5 defense usually wins. Only 3 teams have won the Super Bowl in the last 30 years with a defense ranked in the 20s. All 3 were in the last 10 years. The Saints last year were ranked 25th. During the 90s, only one team, the 1998 Broncos, were ranked outside the top 10 defensively and won the Super Bowl. They were ranked 11th. TD also ran for 2,000 yards that year. In the 80s the '87 Redskins were ranked 18th and the '80 Raiders were ranked 11th.

The four years Joe Montana won the Super Bowl. He had the 2nd, 10th, 3rd and 4th ranked defenses in the NFL. Peyton Manning has had a top 10 defense twice. Terry Bradshaw, who I actually like but is simply way too high on the list, had these top ranked defenses when he won the Super Bowl: #1, #4, #3 and #2.

These are the defenses Manning has had for his career thus far...

1998 - 29th ranked defense
1999 - 15th ranked defense
2000 - 21st ranked defense
2001 - 29th ranked defense
2002 - 8th ranked defense
2003 - 11th ranked defense
2004 - 29th ranked defense
2005 - 11th ranked defense
2006 - 21st ranked defense
2007 - 3rd ranked defense
2008 - 11th ranked defense
2009 - 18th ranked defense

The 2 times they had a top 10 defense they gave up over 400 yards while blowing 4 leads (07) and in the other game they gave up nearly 400 yards (180 rushing) and 41 points (02). Offensively they ran the ball for 52 yards and 44 yards respectively. But let's blame everything on Peyton. The QBs are getting too much credit (in this list) and certain one's (Marino and Manning) are getting too much blame.

Quote:
Now keep in mind, this is a Pats homer website, however they break things down nicely. Not to turn this into a Brady vs. Manning debate, but I think it is necessary in this case.
I'm pretty sure you just turned that into a Manning vs Brady debate.

http://www.patspulpit.com/2010/10/30...peyton-manning



Quote:
"Manning's quarterback ratings in 1999, 2002, 2003, and 2004 were all the worst rating he had in any game all season. His two best games were the ones in which he threw no interceptions.


If this isnt choking, what is?
2004? He hardly ever had a QB rating under 100. No **** his QB rating of 69 was going to be the worst the season. His season average was 121. 2004 loss to the Patriots. What did Manning have? 39 rushing yards from James. Brady had 144 yards from Corey Dillon and another 56 yards from Kevin Faulk. The Colts had 0 first downs on the ground. 17 out of their 18 first downs were from passes. The other? Penalty.

210 yards rushing for the Patriots? Well, you can afford to have an average game of 18/27 (66.7%) for 144 yards, 1 TD. That was a bunch of quick, short and easy throws. Peyton has NEVER had that luxury of just turning around and handing the ball off, setting up play action and taking calculated shots. That game, a 20-3 win for NE, pretty much sums up the difference between the two teams.

In the 3rd QT and start of the 4th QT the Patriots had two drivers of 15 plays and 14 plays cover over 8 minutes and over 7 minutes each. If Peyton saw the Colts defense, he would pick them apart. The Patriots were simply a much better team and much better suited for the playoffs. Having a defense with Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymour, Jarvis Green Ty Warren, Teddy Brusci, Mike Vrabel, Willie McGinest, Asante Samuel, Ty Law and Rodney Harrison... can you say stacked? Colts had Dwight Freeney, Bob Sanders, Robert Mathis, Nick Harper and Mike Doss to go along with a vanilla scheme. Talk about an even matchup. To think that these teams, defensively, were even close to one another is a preposterous joke.

2003 was simply a terrible game and Peyton was a big part of that. 4 turnovers is hard to overcome. Poor offensive line play and break downs in pass protection led to a lot of bad decisions on Peyton's part. But, like I've said, Peyton has always taken the spotlight off guys like Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne who routinely fail to show up against tough, physical defenses. He deserves a lot of blame. All of it? No. But I'm not going to debate that fact that he played poorly in the playoffs prior to 2003. 2003 he started playing well in the playoffs. He had one terrible game against NE and has been pretty good in the playoffs since 2003. Prior to 2003, I said he was one of the most overrated players in the NFL for the exact reason. Since then he has redeemed himself and has been to 2 Super Bowls, has beaten the Patriots in the playoffs and won a ring. He's still putting up Hall of Fame numbers and collecting MVP trophies.

2002 they got trounced by the Jets. A surprise? Yes, but again, another game where they total about 50 yards rushing compared to 180 given up. If you look at Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne? ******* ghosts. Freezing cold weather against a team more physical and more balanced. That's what wins in the playoffs. It's why the Steelers are so good in the playoffs and why the Colts have to be in a dome to be good in the playoffs. Colts are and have been a soft team, both offensively and defensively, for over the last decade. Very few QBs can overcome that stigma that Pollian has built. He has built a team with soft linemen, soft receivers and soft linebackers. When you get to the playoffs and your line is getting pushed around and your defense is giving up 15 play drives and having the ball run right down their ******* throat... probably not going to fair well in the playoffs.




The Patriots have had better teams to go along with a great QB. I have no issue with Tom Brady. He is easily one of the 5 best QBs of all-time. Individually, which is what this list is supposed to be comprised of, Peyton is better. Football is a team sport. Dan Marino does not deserve blame for never winning a Super Bowl. Would it be better if he had one? Of course, but he never had a great team to do it and it certainly wasn't his fault he never won a Super Bowl.
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Old 11-12-2010, 02:04 AM    (permalink
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If Manning is going to get the crown win the team wins, then he has to get the blame when the team loses. You can't blame the team or the organization when Peyton Manning throws a pick six due to him just making a bad decision on the football field. And Manning has had a good defense before that has actually carried him more than the other way around. 2002 was a good example. Or the 2006 playoffs where Manning just did not play well the majority of the postseason. I don't think Peyton himself would hide behind such excuses. He'd probably man up and admit that he didn't play that well and the rest of his team (especially the defense) helped him when he struggled.
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Old 11-12-2010, 02:57 AM    (permalink
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The thing is though that he is usually the reason the team wins. he leads his team to 10+ wins every time, i doubt no one is gonna argue that its the superb running game or individual performances of the WRs that is carrying this team. Fact is that people are blaming him for not carrying his team more. With Peyton its obvious, that if he doesnt play well, the Colts will lose. The Pats can overcome bad games of their QB, the Steelers can, the Falcons can, the Giants can, because they can either rely on their running game or their defense. The Colts have been Peyton all day. Or would you bet on the team to win if you have only an average game by Peyton? I wouldnt. there is nothing on that team that would make me believe they could carry it when Peyton is having a bad day. That is why people credit him and think the whole "PEYTON IS LOSING OMGZ" is kinda ridiculous to some extent
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:33 AM    (permalink
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If Manning is going to get the crown win the team wins, then he has to get the blame when the team loses. You can't blame the team or the organization when Peyton Manning throws a pick six due to him just making a bad decision on the football field. And Manning has had a good defense before that has actually carried him more than the other way around. 2002 was a good example. Or the 2006 playoffs where Manning just did not play well the majority of the postseason. I don't think Peyton himself would hide behind such excuses. He'd probably man up and admit that he didn't play that well and the rest of his team (especially the defense) helped him when he struggled.
If Peyton threw for 145 yards in a Super Bowl with a QB rating the mid 80s, people would crucify him and say that he was carried by the rushing attack or defense. Oh, wait I guess that's already happened. And he faced the best defense in the NFC that Super Bowl? He puts up 29 points against the 3rd ranked scoring defense, but because he threw an INT and only managed 247 yards, he was carried by the defense. Yeah, give me a ******* break. The defense didn't play like complete dog ****. A surprise? Yes, but they didn't carry him. He actually got help. I consider that a huge difference. For once in his career, Peyton didn't have to throw for 330 yards, 4 TDs and be nearly perfect every game to get a ******* W in the playoffs. I'm sure his career will be tarnished forever. 2009 playoffs, minus one throw, he plays great football, yet he's a choker. It's a joke. The standards are so high for him, higher than Brady or any other QB before him, that he literally has to play the greatest game of his life every single week.

Peyton beat Brady in 2006. They went head-to-head. Somewhere it the stat book elway=goat produced, it failed to say anything like that. Shocking how the tables turn. When Brady throws the ball 40 or 50 times a game, the Patriots lose in the playoffs and he plays poorly. What a shocker. Peyton throws the ball 40 times a game in the playoffs like it's routine. No running game and no defense? And Brady is human? The game completely on the QBs shoulders and Brady has been average in the playoffs? Sometimes loses badly? Loses as much as he wins? No Super Bowls? Wow, what a surprise. When he can turn around and run the ball for 150 yards a game and have a defense that holds a team to less than 17 points... he wins? No ****.

No one wants to talk about Brady in the post season when he wasn't on a team that had a very good running game and top 10 defense. No one wants to bring up those stats. No one wants to talk about the Chargers game in 2006 when he had a QB rating of 57 and 3 INTs. And then to play the Colts and do very little again? 2007 he goes undefeated in the regular season and throws 50 TDs. Playoffs role around and he throws 3 INTs against the Chargers winning only because Rivers had a tore ACL with no LT and an injured Gates. Then he goes to the Super Bowl and people blame the offensive line. Wow, Tom Brady gets pressure and we pass the buck off to someone else. Peyton gets pressure and it's his fault for holding on to the ball. That stat book once again made by Patriots fans blames Asante Samuel for dropping a should-be game ending INT. Blames David Tyree for a miracle. Blames the offensive line. Gives credit to the Giants defense. Brady only managing 14 points? No. Highest scoring offense in NFL history? Everyone else's fault except for Brady. When people want to pick and choose when a QB gets credit then things get slanted. He does very little in the playoffs and he gets credit. He doesn't play well? Well, he's got 3 rings to fall back on. He doesn't deserve all the credit and he doesn't deserve all the blame. A terrible call in 2004 against Oakland gave him a ring the Patriots never deserved to play for. Would it make him any less great? I don't think so. He'd still have 2 rings and 1 SB loss with an undefeated team in the regular season. Pretty ******* great. He's had a lot of luck to win 3 rings.

2009 he had a QB rating below 50. Threw 3 INTs. Joe Flacco threw for 34 ******* yards and beat him. Does anyone care? No. Sometimes that happens... great players having bad games against better teams with better players. Some players are on the short end of the stick more often than not.
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Old 11-12-2010, 08:32 AM    (permalink
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No QB can be the GOAT without leaving a big footprint in the playoffs. Thus far, Peyton has not done that.
Blame his defense, blame his mediocre oline, etc. How many times do the Colts have to lose a home game in the playoffs before people start to re-evaluate where Peyton ranks among the greatest NFL QBs??

When the games count the most, when the Colts absolutely need Peyton to be the GOAT, he isn't.

He lost that game to the Saints on a stupid INT that was returned for a TD.

A terrible read on his part, inexcusable for a player of his stature and skill set.

I forgot the poster who said it, but Manning is the greatest regular season QB in NFL history. But there's really no way you can put him higher than that.
QB is not like RB or WR or DE; QBs more than any position are graded on playoff wins and SBs.
It's why Kurt Warner is a probable HOFer, (3 SB appearances) and Donovan McNabb isn't.

Just win baby. Great QB, no doubt. But for one single game, for all the glory, over the history of the NFL is Peyton the guy you'd really want calling the signals for your squad??

That's why Peyton isn't the GOAT.
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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So his comebacks against the Pats and such arent great footprints? most of the time he didnt even lose them the game.
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:15 PM    (permalink
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No QB can be the GOAT without leaving a big footprint in the playoffs. Thus far, Peyton has not done that.
Blame his defense, blame his mediocre oline, etc. How many times do the Colts have to lose a home game in the playoffs before people start to re-evaluate where Peyton ranks among the greatest NFL QBs??

When the games count the most, when the Colts absolutely need Peyton to be the GOAT, he isn't.

He lost that game to the Saints on a stupid INT that was returned for a TD.

A terrible read on his part, inexcusable for a player of his stature and skill set.

I forgot the poster who said it, but Manning is the greatest regular season QB in NFL history. But there's really no way you can put him higher than that.
QB is not like RB or WR or DE; QBs more than any position are graded on playoff wins and SBs.
It's why Kurt Warner is a probable HOFer, (3 SB appearances) and Donovan McNabb isn't.

Just win baby. Great QB, no doubt. But for one single game, for all the glory, over the history of the NFL is Peyton the guy you'd really want calling the signals for your squad??

That's why Peyton isn't the GOAT.
Yeah, but you need the team to leave deep footprints. And, some breaks in Brady's case(like the Tuck Rule and the ball being kicked out of bounds by Kasay).

And, as far as last year's SB is concerned, don't blame Peyton. There were other plays that made a bigger difference:

1. When the Colts were up 10-0, Peyton hit Pierre Garcon for a first down, but he dropped it. That play could have kept the momentum going for the Colts, and maybe they go up 17-0 by halftime.

2. The onside kick by Payton coming out of halftime. If the Colts recover that, it is a different game.

Basically, Brady has been luckier in the playoffs than Peyton.

As for the list, I am not sure if Brady is a top-100 player all-time. He is an overrated system QB that needs things to be pristine to have success. Give him pressure, and he is taken out of the game, like the Giants proved three years ago.

I don't think that I would have Favre in the top-20, either.

Here would be my top-10:

1. Jim Brown: Best ever.
2. Lawrence Taylor: Best defensive player of all-time.
3. Walter Payton
4. Johnny Unitas
5. Mean Joe Greene
6. Reggie White
7. Barry Sanders
8. Don Hutson
9. Dick Butkus
10. Sammy Baugh: I would rate him this high because he did more than just play QB. He was a punter and a defensive back as well.

I would have Rice rated 11-15, and Montana around 20-22 behind Elway, Marino, and Peyton.
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Old 11-12-2010, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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The thing is though that he is usually the reason the team wins. he leads his team to 10+ wins every time, i doubt no one is gonna argue that its the superb running game or individual performances of the WRs that is carrying this team. Fact is that people are blaming him for not carrying his team more. With Peyton its obvious, that if he doesnt play well, the Colts will lose. The Pats can overcome bad games of their QB, the Steelers can, the Falcons can, the Giants can, because they can either rely on their running game or their defense. The Colts have been Peyton all day. Or would you bet on the team to win if you have only an average game by Peyton? I wouldnt. there is nothing on that team that would make me believe they could carry it when Peyton is having a bad day. That is why people credit him and think the whole "PEYTON IS LOSING OMGZ" is kinda ridiculous to some extent
This isn't necessarily true. First off, a team is going to be a consistent winner if their quarterback is a good one period. And the Colts do have a chance to win the game if Peyton Manning is off his mark. The entire 2002 season was a good example when they had a pretty decent defense, but were only 17th in point scored. Or the 2006 playoffs where Peyton wasn't that great. That Kansas City game comes to mind when Ty Law continue to terrorize Manning and the defense that had been torched all season via the run, stepped up and shut Larry Johnson down. Peyton has had bad games and the team has still won. Us playing the Colts last year was a good example.
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