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Old 01-18-2011, 01:39 PM    (permalink
FlyingElvis
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We need pressure. I think we need the DE & OLB as the top two priorities. I like what I've seen from Cunningham and think he'll develop well. But even if he becomes a solid pass rush guy another rusher as a bookend would be sick. DE is clearly a need, too. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but Wilfork at DE should scream "ROSTER DEFICIENCY!!!11++1!!" to anyone watching.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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I really am not sure why the coaching staff has been stuck in pass rusher by committee for so long.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ElectricEye View Post
I really am not sure why the coaching staff has been stuck in pass rusher by committee for so long.
Because the DE to OLB transition is risky so they refuse to draft an elite one. Instead they'd rather take a guy with a more sure fire chance to produce at his position than take a player really high and change his position.

Now we are lacking in pass rushers of all kinds really. (UT, DE, and OLB)
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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BB is a great coach, so obviously he believed he had something in place that would work, and he has for a few seasons now and it hasn't worked out. Hopefully he gets another guy like Cunningham who can set the edge and rush, and we will be set at LB for a while.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
Generally our defensive line holds up well against the run but suffers in pass rushing.
Umm, about half of the time, they do a good job of taking on blockers and allowing linebackers to make plays. The other half they tend to fail their blocker absorbing requirements and the blockers get to the next level or they use the lineman to trap the LB inside and a huge cutback lane is created.

This DL needs to seriously improve. We were terrible at holding the edge against the Jets and it wasn't like that was a new problem. The people responsible for holding the edge in that game deserve an F- though.
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Old 01-18-2011, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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1. Tyron Smith, OT, USC
1. Rodney Hudson, G/C, Florida State
2. Cameron Heyward, DE, Ohio State
2. Leonard Hankerson, WR, Miami
3. Dontay Moch, LB, Nevada
3. Rashad Carmichael, CB, Virginia Tech
4. Stanley Havili, FB, USC
5. Andy Dalton, QB, TCU
6. Darren Evans, RB, Virginia Tech
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Old 01-19-2011, 02:49 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by descendency View Post
1. Tyron Smith, OT, USC
1. Rodney Hudson, G/C, Florida State
2. Cameron Heyward, DE, Ohio State
2. Leonard Hankerson, WR, Miami
3. Dontay Moch, LB, Nevada
3. Rashad Carmichael, CB, Virginia Tech
4. Stanley Havili, FB, USC
5. Andy Dalton, QB, TCU
6. Darren Evans, RB, Virginia Tech
Few things about this mock.

Firstly Im not sure they need to spend a 5th rounder to compete with Hoyer. He has shown well in limited chances and while he's not the QB of the future I don't think it's time to go and get one yet.

Secondly, if we take Smith and Hudson we would probably have the smallest offensive line in the NFL. An OT and an OG weighing a hair over 280lbs?? I'd rather pass on both personally.

Heyward in the second is a steal and I like Hankerson.

Carmichael I really like and I think he is very similar to Devin McCourty, only not as good.

We don't use the FB that often in the offense and it would take away snaps from when Hernandez lines up there so Im not a big fan of Havili. Evans is a solid pick.

Dontay Moch is the wildcard here. He is extremely raw and maybe wont be able to hold the edge, but he could be a monster with some coaching.

Overall I wouldn't be happy with the mock but the 2nd and 3rd round would make it at least average.
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:10 AM    (permalink
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I highly doubt that BB goes OT/OG in round 1 with BOTH picks, much less one. He has proven that he may go OL late in round 1, but mostly round 2 is where he finds his OT (Vollmer, Light), Mankins with late round 1.

I really think this year it's ideal that he AT LEAST hits on a 3-4 DE or OLB with 1 of the Round One picks and hopefully both of them. THat way he can get that out of the picture for the rset of the draft. Once that is out of the picture.

You have CB, WR, OT, OG -- that can all realisitcally be filled in the 2nd/3rd round. Maybe a RB in the 4th, and then depth and ST guys after that.

I really hope Hankerson or Baldwin turn up in a Patriots uni, to help stretch the field and open up the field for the TE's and Welker. Or if BB thinks Price is that guy then I am also fine with him stretching the field.

I also think we need OT/OG -- not quite sure when and who. BUt I think pick 60 will be an OT probably. With maybe a 3rd/4th on a OG. But I don't think we need 2 high OL yet. If we can get a good rookie and go Vollmer - Mankins - Koppen - Neal - ROookie -- for one more year assuming that Mankins resigns and Neal doesn't retire, I think we are fine improving our WR.

At Defense, in later rounds I'd LOVE a pass rush speciailist like DOntay Moch, the guy is just a monster, whO I am not sure if he can play techniqually very well, but has sick speed for a LB, and would be great in sub packages, but I wouldn't like him at all as the only OLB we get because he isn't an everydown LB or even a 2 down LB, and he is way too small for BB"s scheme anyhow.

New Mock at the moment:

#17 -- DE JJ Watt, Wisconsin
#28 -- OLB Justin Houston, Georgia
#33 -- WR Jon Baldwin, Pittsburgh
#60 -- OT Danny Watkins, Baylor
#74 -- CB Curtis Brown, Texas
#92 -- RB Bilal Powell, Louisville (Kid really impresses me every game I watch)
4th -- DE, Greg Romeus, Pittsburgh
5th -- OG Zach Hurd, Connecticut
6th -- QB Ricki Stanzi, Iowa

That would be a pretty solid draft hitting on all major needs DE, OLB, CB, RB, WR, OG/OT, adding depth to DLine, and giving Hoyer some healthy competition with a late pick. Overall Hurd at OG may not pan out but at least you get a body in to compete and next year you can use a higher pick on an OG when you really need one. I really like the 2 5 techs added with Romeus sliding on some boards. I am really high on Powell from Lousiville, and the rest of the picks are self explanatory.
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:28 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by descendency View Post
1. Tyron Smith, OT, USC
1. Rodney Hudson, G/C, Florida State
2. Cameron Heyward, DE, Ohio State
2. Leonard Hankerson, WR, Miami
3. Dontay Moch, LB, Nevada
3. Rashad Carmichael, CB, Virginia Tech
4. Stanley Havili, FB, USC
5. Andy Dalton, QB, TCU
6. Darren Evans, RB, Virginia Tech
What I don't like about this mock is having 'Moch' as our answer to our OLB problems.
I love him as a prospect but he's a project and will take some time before he'd see the field.

Replace Smith OT with Kerrigan OLB and Carmichael with an OT and I'd like this mock a billion times more
A big fan of drafting Havili...
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:01 AM    (permalink
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What I don't like about this mock is having 'Moch' as our answer to our OLB problems.
I love him as a prospect but he's a project and will take some time before he'd see the field.

Replace Smith OT with Kerrigan OLB and Carmichael with an OT and I'd like this mock a billion times more
A big fan of drafting Havili...
The core problem I think the Patriots have with drafting an OLB is that they want a guy with DE build but linebacker skills. He has to be a 3 down player and be effective in all 3 downs. The kind of guy they are looking for is Robert Quinn more-so than anyone else. I don't know that this team will invest a first round pick on an OLB.

That leaves me with a few DEs or OTs. I chose Smith over the others because I think he has the most upside. A 290 LB OT isn't uncommon. While I wouldn't put him at LT right away necessarily, I could see him manning the left side instead of the right (Vollmer is slightly bigger and Smith could put on another 20-30 LBs with his fame. Plus the guy is 290 lbs already)

Rodney Hudson and Cameron Heyward could be swapped. He's probably more of a center than a guard, but he has elite technique. In terms of prospects, he's a few pounds and maybe an inch here and there away from being the best center prospect of this decade.

I think Hankerson speaks for himself.

Carmichael fills an obvious void in the nickel coverage packages and gives us some injury resistance.

Moch is to try to get another pass rusher. It's later that I'd like, but I think solidifying the other positions gives better value. I just don't love the DE/OLB given the Patriots draft history.

The Pats don't use a FB, because they don't have one. They use Connolly and Sammy Morris and occassionally a TE. They could do a lot more schematically with a true fullback, which I do think the offense could use.

I'm always about some competition at the backup QB spot.

And Darren Evans is my personal favorite running back after round 5. I think with how others see him, he could go undrafted. If that's the case, we need to get him in camp. He's not going to blow you away in the open field, but the rest of his game is rock solid. (He's never fumbled. . .)
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:05 AM    (permalink
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The core problem I think the Patriots have with drafting an OLB is that they want a guy with DE build but linebacker skills. He has to be a 3 down player and be effective in all 3 downs. The kind of guy they are looking for is Robert Quinn more-so than anyone else. I don't know that this team will invest a first round pick on an OLB.

That leaves me with a few DEs or OTs. I chose Smith over the others because I think he has the most upside. A 290 LB OT isn't uncommon. While I wouldn't put him at LT right away necessarily, I could see him manning the left side instead of the right (Vollmer is slightly bigger and Smith could put on another 20-30 LBs with his fame. Plus the guy is 290 lbs already)

Rodney Hudson and Cameron Heyward could be swapped. He's probably more of a center than a guard, but he has elite technique. In terms of prospects, he's a few pounds and maybe an inch here and there away from being the best center prospect of this decade.

I think Hankerson speaks for himself.

Carmichael fills an obvious void in the nickel coverage packages and gives us some injury resistance.
Moch is to try to get another pass rusher. It's later that I'd like, but I think solidifying the other positions gives better value. I just don't love the DE/OLB given the Patriots draft history.

The Pats don't use a FB, because they don't have one. They use Connolly and Sammy Morris and occassionally a TE. They could do a lot more schematically with a true fullback, which I do think the offense could use.

I'm always about some competition at the backup QB spot.

And Darren Evans is my personal favorite running back after round 5. I think with how others see him, he could go undrafted. If that's the case, we need to get him in camp. He's not going to blow you away in the open field, but the rest of his game is rock solid. (He's never fumbled. . .)
I dont think Carmichael would come in to be the nickel guy. Considering Bodden is coming back I think the team would be more than happy with Arrington and Wilhite in the slot. If they bring in a CB it will be to challenge for a starting role outside IMO.

As for Havili, even when they had Heath Evans they really only used him around the goal line in passing situations. I also don't see him being a conventional FB, more of simply a big slow RB.
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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Here are some guys I see as possible fits in the first two rounds (regardless of whether or not we'd be able to get them):

RB Mark Ingram, Alabama* (1)
RB Mikel LeShoure, Illinois* (2)
RB DeMarco Murray, Oklahoma*
RB Kendell Hunter, Oklahoma St.
RB Shane Vereen, California*

WR A.J. Green, Georgia* (1)
WR Julio Jones, Alabama*
WR Jerrel Jernigan, Troy (2)
WR Randall Cobb, Kentucky*
WR Leonard Hankerson, Miami (FL)

OT Nate Solder, Colorado (1)
OT Anthony Castonzo, Boston College
OT Gabe Carimi, Wisconsin
OT DeMarcus Love, Arkansas (2)
OT Ben Ijalana, Villanova
OT Marcus Gilbert, Florida

OG Rodney Hudson, Florida St. (2)
OG Mike Pouncey, Florida
OG Lee Ziemba, Auburn

C Stefen Wisniewski, Penn St. (1)
C Kristofer O'Dowd, Southern California (2)

DE Marcell Dareus, Alabama* (1)
DE Cameron Heyward, Ohio St.
DE Cameron Jordan, California
DE J.J. Watt, Wisconsin*
DE Muhammad Wilkerson, Temple* (2)
DE Jarvis Jenkins, Clemson

DT Christian Ballard, Iowa (2)

LB Robert Quinn, North Carolina* (1)
LB Da'Quan Bowers, Clemson*
LB Aldon Smith, Missouri*
LB Ryan Kerrigan, Purdue
LB Akeem Ayers, UCLA*
LB Justin Houston, Georgia*
LB Jeremy Beal, Oklahoma (2)
LB Martez Wilson, Illinois*
LB Jabaal Sheard, Pittsburgh
LB Pernell McPhee, Mississippi St.
LB Sam Acho, Texas

CB Patrick Peterson, Louisiana St.* (1)
CB Prince Amukamara, Nebraska
CB Brandon Harris, Miami (FL)*

FS Rahim Moore, UCLA* (2)
FS Quinton Carter, Oklahoma
FS Ahmad Black, Florida
FS Deunta Williams, North Carolina
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:46 AM    (permalink
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I love Gilbert at OT and I kinda like the idea of Ziemba ot OG but if we go near either in the first two rounds Ill not be happy. Both are more late 3rd type guys at the minute IMO
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:49 AM    (permalink
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I don't think I'm going out on much of a limb when I say there's no way in hell we'll draft Montay Moch. He would be an ILB in our scheme and that's just not worth it. We passed on it with Everette Brown, Jerry Hughes, ect...no way we'll go to a pure speed rusher this time around. I'm not convinced at all about his ability to hold up as a starter in this league either. He's very fast and can get by slow footed college tackles. This much we know. But when he's engaged and taking on blocks he's a non-factor. We've passed on the one trick pony many, many times and we're often right.

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LB Robert Quinn, North Carolina* (1)
LB Da'Quan Bowers, Clemson*
LB Aldon Smith, Missouri*
LB Ryan Kerrigan, Purdue
LB Akeem Ayers, UCLA*
LB Justin Houston, Georgia*
LB Jeremy Beal, Oklahoma (2)
LB Martez Wilson, Illinois*
LB Jabaal Sheard, Pittsburgh
LB Pernell McPhee, Mississippi St.
LB Sam Acho, Texas
I think these are the only OLB's we would consider drafting, credit to ROP for putting that list together.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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Nice job putting that together ROP. A lot of those guys would be great additions at positions we certainly need help at. One thing, I don't see McPhee as a 3-4 OLB. I really see him as a pure 4-3 end at the next level personally.
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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If I were to include all rounds my perfect draft would look like:

1a. Ryan Kerrigan, OLB, Purdue
1b. Cam Heyward, DE, Ohio St.
2a. DeMarcus Love, OG, Arkansas
2b. Leonard Hankerson, WR, Miami
3a. Kris O'Dowd, C, USC
3b. Marcus Gilbert, OT, Florida
4. Tyler Sash, S, Iowa
5. Thomas Keiser, OLB, Stanford
6. Justin Rogers, CB, Richmond

I don't know much about Justin Rogers, but from what I could gather he's a very good fit int the system which always is nice.
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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I love Kesier from Stanford. He is intelligent, fits BB's mold for an OLB with size and build. He played in a 34 previously at Stanford, and will just be a good fit here.
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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I love Kesier from Stanford. He is intelligent, fits BB's mold for an OLB with size and build. He played in a 34 previously at Stanford, and will just be a good fit here.
Love him. But he didn't play all that well this year. Likely a 4th or 5th round pick.
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Old 01-19-2011, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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That is true. Hopefully he can be a late find for us.
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:45 AM    (permalink
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If I were to include all rounds my perfect draft would look like:

1a. Ryan Kerrigan, OLB, Purdue
1b. Cam Heyward, DE, Ohio St.
2a. DeMarcus Love, OG, Arkansas
2b. Leonard Hankerson, WR, Miami
3a. Kris O'Dowd, C, USC
3b. Marcus Gilbert, OT, Florida
4. Tyler Sash, S, Iowa
5. Thomas Keiser, OLB, Stanford
6. Justin Rogers, CB, Richmond

I don't know much about Justin Rogers, but from what I could gather he's a very good fit int the system which always is nice.
Im not a huge Tyler Sash fan honestly but apart from that I love this draft. It adds some real quality along the offensive line and two immediate impact players on defense. I dont know a lot about Keiser or Richmond but any production out of late round picks is a bonus. If theres a RB of nice value in the 4th like Daniel Thomas or Kendall Hunter etc I would prefer to take them, or if we do go safety I like Ahmad Black better than Sash.
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:13 AM    (permalink
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Im not a huge Tyler Sash fan honestly but apart from that I love this draft. It adds some real quality along the offensive line and two immediate impact players on defense. I dont know a lot about Keiser or Richmond but any production out of late round picks is a bonus. If theres a RB of nice value in the 4th like Daniel Thomas or Kendall Hunter etc I would prefer to take them, or if we do go safety I like Ahmad Black better than Sash.
I actually thought about taking a RB in the fourth, but I think that we're fine with Lawfirm and Woody for the time being. I think there will actually be some pretty good RBs availble as UDFAs this year simply due to the number of junior RBs declaring for the draft. Damien Berry (Miami), Vai Taua (Nevada) and Darren Evans (Virginia Tech) are players who could very well go undrafted and imo they are all worth bringing in for the TC and see how they do.

But I think the fourth round is the perfect spot for taking football players, and Sash is most definetly just that. Not a great physical talent, but he brings it every time. I'd rather have him as a backup than Meriweather.
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Old 01-20-2011, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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If we were to go running back in the later rounds I think Bilal Powell from Louisville would be a great fit. The kid is a very good player and I think will be a great pro, who if given the oppurtunity will be a great starting back. But he can also split time with the Law Firm and Woodhead which is nice. There is no reason for us to take a RB unless he is as good as AP, our run game wasn't our problem this year and for what we did with it, Woodhead and BenJarvus were just fine.
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Old 01-20-2011, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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I agree. The run game is a secondary objective and always will be so long as Brady is here.
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Old 01-20-2011, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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I think BB looks to OLB, DE, CB, OT with his first 4 picks. But I suspect he will trade down or maybe even up. So we will likely only have 3 picks in the first 2 rounds. But I wouldn't be surprised if BB gets who he wants at #17 to trade down from #28 and pick up 2 later 2nd rounders to give him 5 picks in the 1st 2 rounds, and then flexibility to trade into next year, this is BB we are talking about.

The reason i thought -- OLB, DE, OT, CB -- is because I think you can never have enough depth at CB and BB has thought the same way, so if there is a great player there at any point he will take him. I htink he will take a Vollmer type player in the 2nd round at some point for OT. Our 2 biggest needs are OLB, DE and I hope BB finally addresses those at some point, at the very least hopefully the OLB need. I would say WR instead of CB, but I think BB is content what he has, but may go with a WR in the 3rd or sign a UFA/Trade for one.
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Old 01-20-2011, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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Vollmer being taken in the late second round was a fluke. It was just a poorly judged draft by most GMs. Guys like him are usually not in the second round.
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