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Old 02-26-2011, 11:38 PM    (permalink
JeffSamardzijaIRISH
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The best comparison for the situation in NY is really simple: the Houston Rockets with Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady. In his prime McGrady was much better than Carmelo Anthony, even his playoff winning % is better if you can believe that. Carmelo may not be injury prone like McGrady was, that is his one advantage. Two superstars isn't a guarantee if you don't have role players, and one of your stars is a ticking time bomb of a serious injury; which is why everyone, but NY, stayed away from Stoudemire. Not saying it was wrong for them to take the risk, they really NEEDED him, but it is a risk nonetheless.
T-Mac was probably the most anti-clutch player in the playoffs during his prime. Has he made it out of the first round yet?
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:41 PM    (permalink
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The best comparison for the situation in NY is really simple: the Houston Rockets with Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady. In his prime McGrady was much better than Carmelo Anthony, even his playoff winning % is better if you can believe that. Carmelo may not be injury prone like McGrady was, that is his one advantage. Two superstars isn't a guarantee if you don't have role players, and one of your stars is a ticking time bomb of a serious injury; which is why everyone, but NY, stayed away from Stoudemire. Not saying it was wrong for them to take the risk, they really NEEDED him, but it is a risk nonetheless.
No, McGrady was not better than Melo in his prime. Melo is a much better overall scorer, and he never had anyone even close to Yao playing next to him.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:47 PM    (permalink
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McGrady hit his prime way before he joined the Rockets and if I remember right he averaged some great numbers playing with no one.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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Would somebody explain to me what the players New York ultimately traded for Melo and Billups had that isn't actually replaceable?

A specific skill-set? A certain talent? Anything besides quantity of available players? Because you can go through the free agent pool and fill those numbers back up easily.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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Honestly how many big Russians and sharp shooting Italians are there in the league?
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:06 AM    (permalink
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Would somebody explain to me what the players New York ultimately traded for Melo and Billups had that isn't actually replaceable?

A specific skill-set? A certain talent? Anything besides quantity of available players? Because you can go through the free agent pool and fill those numbers back up easily.
Right now the biggest thing the Knicks lost in the trade is with Mozgov cause we need a big man who can run the court well and set picks so we can run our pick and roll which is a huge part of D'antoni's offense. His ability to rebound and intimate and alter shots which he was doing well before the deal went down.

Also with Gallo you lose some 3 point ability not enough that you cant make up down the line but right now we don't have someone who can be a replacement.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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Right now the biggest thing the Knicks lost in the trade is with Mozgov cause we need a big man who can run the court well and set picks so we can run our pick and roll which is a huge part of D'antoni's offense. His ability to rebound and intimate and alter shots which he was doing well before the deal went down.

Also with Gallo you lose some 3 point ability not enough that you cant make up down the line but right now we don't have someone who can be a replacement.
Noted, noted.

So if I understand this correctly, New York has set up a Two-Star system and paid for it with the majority of their established depth, and may very well be willing to tread water for the rest of this season and wait until the off-season to replenish said depth in however way they choose.

I would argue that this isn't like all the other attempts New York has done for one vital reason; this hasn't bankrupted any salary space, nor has it extended the horrendous wait before enough contracts go off the books in order to make legit signings again.


...and if I may, I just wanna comment on the comparison between Melo and Marbury;

Melo very well could be as much of a No-D and Little Pass presence as Marbury was and that would NEVER damage this team as badly as 'Starbury' did because Melo's not bringing that ball up the court. He's not running the offense or supposedly trying to find open teammates. Marbury's deficiencies were put under an even more glaring spotlight because he was the Point, entrusted to keep the team's offense running like a fine-tuned engine. And the engine sputtered under his watch.

Really though, it could be seen coming from a mile away, when you consider his previous stops in New Jersey and Phoenix. You just need to look at the W-L records during his stay and immediately after he was gone.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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T-Mac was probably the most anti-clutch player in the playoffs during his prime. Has he made it out of the first round yet?
Averages 28.5 pts a game in the playoffs, id be willing to say he showed up for those games.

At one point T-Mac was the next big thing, the guy was a star.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:40 AM    (permalink
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Noted, noted.

So if I understand this correctly, New York has set up a Two-Star system and paid for it with the majority of their established depth, and may very well be willing to tread water for the rest of this season and wait until the off-season to replenish said depth in however way they choose.

I would argue that this isn't like all the other attempts New York has done for one vital reason; this hasn't bankrupted any salary space, nor has it extended the horrendous wait before enough contracts go off the books in order to make legit signings again.


...and if I may, I just wanna comment on the comparison between Melo and Marbury;

Melo very well could be as much of a No-D and Little Pass presence as Marbury was and that would NEVER damage this team as badly as 'Starbury' did because Melo's not bringing that ball up the court. He's not running the offense or supposedly trying to find open teammates. Marbury's deficiencies were put under an even more glaring spotlight because he was the Point, entrusted to keep the team's offense running like a fine-tuned engine. And the engine sputtered under his watch.

Really though, it could be seen coming from a mile away, when you consider his previous stops in New Jersey and Phoenix. You just need to look at the W-L records during his stay and immediately after he was gone.
New York right now has a two star system. Potentially 3 star system depending on the desire of one Chris Paul to join and if the Knicks catch a break with this new CBA.

One of the new changes in the CBA might be the removal of the Mid Level Exception which would hurt the Knicks ability to bring in depth as well as a NFL type franchise tag which would hurt our chances for Chris Paul.

This move has taken up alot of salary space. Melo and Amare alone take up around 40 million of our $.

I am not saying Melo is going to be as a damaging to the franchise as Starbury. I was simply saying we brought in the "hometown" superstar who was a big time scorer before in Marbury who we gave everything we had to get him same as with Melo we gave Denver every asset we had to get him and when it was all said and done we didn't win and the Marbury move hurt the future of the franchise as well.

That was the basis of my comparison we brought in the star player and hinged our bets to him to be the guy to bring us closer to the title.

Hopefully Melo can bring us closer to that title. I am rooting for him as a Knicks fan but Melo and Stat can't do it on their own. We need to get the pieces around them to help as soon as we can.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:42 AM    (permalink
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No, McGrady was not better than Melo in his prime. Melo is a much better overall scorer, and he never had anyone even close to Yao playing next to him.
T-Macs PPG while in Orlando

26.8
25.6
32.1
28.0

First couple in Houston

25.7
24.4
24.6
21.6

I dont know where you can say that Melo is a much better scorer than T-Mac was in his prime. If I had the choice of the 2 I think I would take T-Mac in his prime.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:47 AM    (permalink
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Where are the bucks fans in the beginning of the year who didn't understand why the Bulls were being consistently picked ahead of the Bucks this year?
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:52 AM    (permalink
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T-Mac was probably the most anti-clutch player in the playoffs during his prime. Has he made it out of the first round yet?
This is absolutely true.

Melo, like many other stars in the West, had the misfortune of playing in a conference with the Spurs and Lakers for the past decade. You can say the exact same thing about Deron Williams, Steve Nash, or Dirk Nowitzki (and all of those guys had teams as good or better than anything Melo had in Denver).

I hate feeling like I'm just parroting Simmons, but he's right about Melo. He's not a player that's going to jump out at you in today's metric obsessed culture, but he is very, very ******* good at what he does and he does the most important thing in basketball: he scores at the end of games.

Ideally, what the Knicks should do is keep D'antoni for a few seasons to add some role players with inflated value as tradeable assets. The Knicks will never win a championship with him for one main reason: the lack of defensive effort. Melo and Amare are both good on-ball defenders when they're focused and hustling at it. They both lack focus in help and team defense...something that will only get exacerbated playing under a coach like D'antoni. So use him to add role players who put up inflated statistics. In a couple of years, trade those assets, dump D'antoni for a better coach (and I have no idea who it would be at this point) and see what happens.

Remember, Melo is just now entering his prime. He's only 26 and will continue getting better. There is time, but patience will be required.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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Where are the bucks fans in the beginning of the year who didn't understand why the Bulls were being consistently picked ahead of the Bucks this year?

Damn I hate the bucks and it looks like they can't keep up with the East anymore.
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:00 AM    (permalink
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Why must we win now? That's what I don't get. The moves we've made have made us relevant for the next 4 years at least. This was a long term decision.

We can replace role players easily. You can't find stars whenever you want.

We were irrelevant prior to this trade. Now we have hope of building a championship caliber team in the future bc we found the 2 most important and most difficult pieces to find in creating such a team.

Am I nuts? Am I losing my mind or something? I'm starting to question if I'm making any sense at all.
Nah, you're making sense. My gripe isn't that we're struggling now, chemistry takes time and we have no depth to ease over that problem. I'm just disappointed that we wasted such incredible leverage and then ended up paying more for a lesser star...if not a clearly inferior player, than certainly a less valuable one...than what NJ pulled off in nabbing Deron.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:08 AM    (permalink
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Nah, you're making sense. My gripe isn't that we're struggling now, chemistry takes time and we have no depth to ease over that problem. I'm just disappointed that we wasted such incredible leverage and then ended up paying more for a lesser star...if not a clearly inferior player, than certainly a less valuable one...than what NJ pulled off in nabbing Deron.
I really do think you are overrating how much leverage the Knicks had. Melo,first and foremost, wanted that extra money and the Nuggets knew this...therefore eliminating all the percieved leverage you think the Knicks had.
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:23 AM    (permalink
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I really do think you are overrating how much leverage the Knicks had. Melo,first and foremost, wanted that extra money and the Nuggets knew this...therefore eliminating all the percieved leverage you think the Knicks had.
*shrug* I would've called his bluff and focused on Deron. I think we could've gotten Deron while keeping Gallo and Fields giving us a much more balanced lineup. With Deron we wouldn't have to extend him right away and so might've been able to wiggle enough under the cap to make 3 stars a reality this summer, if Melo was willing, but if he really cared more about the money than not playing for Denver/NJ we'd still have 2 stars, a squad around them and have a chance to make a run at Dwight next summer if Melo didn't wait for FA to join Amar'e and Deron.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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But I still don't get where you think NY had all this leverage in the Denver deal. It didn't exist and Knicks fans keep bringing it up.

Not to mention I have no idea how you would get Deron for less than would get Melo. Not to mention the package the Nets gave up is just as good if not better thana the package the Knicks gave up for Melo.
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:24 AM    (permalink
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No, McGrady was not better than Melo in his prime. Melo is a much better overall scorer, and he never had anyone even close to Yao playing next to him.
Melo is not better a better scorer. McGrady in his prime was more athletic, better defender, he pretty much was a better over all player. It was not entirely his faukt that he never won a playoff game especially in that playoff series against the Mavs wheree he did everything.

At one time I thought he was better than Kobe just did not have the same benefit of playing with great players (Yao was hurt alot, if he wasn't T-Mac was lol).
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Old 02-27-2011, 03:48 AM    (permalink
yo123
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Melo has always been better than the best of Tracy Mcgrady. Career 43% shooter for a supposed elite scorer? No thank you.

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Old 02-27-2011, 04:13 AM    (permalink
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*shrug* I would've called his bluff and focused on Deron. I think we could've gotten Deron while keeping Gallo and Fields giving us a much more balanced lineup. With Deron we wouldn't have to extend him right away and so might've been able to wiggle enough under the cap to make 3 stars a reality this summer, if Melo was willing, but if he really cared more about the money than not playing for Denver/NJ we'd still have 2 stars, a squad around them and have a chance to make a run at Dwight next summer if Melo didn't wait for FA to join Amar'e and Deron.

How can you be so confident you would have gotten Deron just like that? Nobody even knew he was on the block, but how do you know you'd offer a better deal then what NJ did? That's all speculation, and a best case scenario for Knicks fans that was highly unlikely IMO.



Especially since your talking about getting him while keeping all these players. What deal would you have offered that Utah would have accepted over getting Favors & Harris + picks, while you keep Gallo and Fields.
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Old 02-27-2011, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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Melo has always been better than the best of Tracy Mcgrady. Career 43% shooter for a supposed elite scorer? No thank you.
Are you seriously making that argument? Carmelo's at 45%, which is at the league average. For being "the best pure" scorer Carmelo shoots at the league average every year.

Tracy McGrady scored as much, played better defense and passed twice as well as Anthony ever has. Oh and Carmelo's playoff winning percentage is awful like McGrady.
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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McGrady didn't play that much defense either, so idk where that is coming from.. I do think McGrady pre-injury was right there/right below Melo as a scorer, he could score pretty easily.
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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If Granger was a #2 option on a good team....
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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Yeah I think people are forgetting how some of these players were viewed.

When TMac was traded to Houston he was considered a top 5 player in the league. The Magic were offered Marion and Amare for TMac (which the GM at the time turned down, as did TMac himself feeling he would have a better chance in winning at Houston). He was damn good.

As for the Marbury argument, while he was never at Melo's current level, he was good back then. EVERYBODY applauded the move when Isiah traded for him. And I do remember the Knicks were playing VERY good ball after getting Marbury and were competing for homecourt advantage. It was the trades AFTER Marbury that started the Knicks struggles (Nazr Mohammad and Tim Thomas). A lot of people still thought the Knicks were an up and coming team but they kept making moves that backfired.
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Old 02-27-2011, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Why does Bill Simmons call the Thunder the Zombies? I can't figure it out...
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