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Old 04-30-2011, 06:24 PM    (permalink
elway=goat
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Default Xanders needs to go.

How does this guy still have a job? How can we not have address the Dline? I have seen who is avilable to this point via FA and everyone is old or on their last leg.

Someone, please explain to me how this guy has managed to screw up 3 straight drafts and still has a job. FFS
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Old 04-30-2011, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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Because the team didn't like the value at DT when they picked?

We had plenty of other holes to fill and we did a pretty good job in that respect.

I suspect we have the outline of a trade for Orton in place already that will bring DL help.
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Old 04-30-2011, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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Calm down and let them do their jobs. Elway, Xanders and Fox are in this together. Wait until you see the final roster for the 2011 season...
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Old 04-30-2011, 08:09 PM    (permalink
elway=goat
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Its always said, you build from the trenches. Its not even the fact that we took Miller, its the fact that we failed to address the DL at all! It dosent matter who we put in the secondary or who our linebackers are when Olines can easily get to the second level and put a body on them.

Take a look at the available DT's and tell me how they are any sort of upgrade from last year. Every single one of them is unwanted, old and on their last leg.

Are you serious with the Orton will land us a DL men? Who exactly is going to be giving up a quality DL man for Orton?

Face it, we blew some of these picks and could of brought in players that could of made bigger impacts(potentially). We took a saftey that would be a 3rd round pick any other year at the earliest.

Irving who I actually like in terms of the way he plays, and the style he brings was not even the best MLB on the board. Mason foster from Washington was still there, and he is a better overall player than Irving is as in sheppard who was picked right after him.

Buffalo had alot of the same problems that we did, and they addressed those issues alot better than we did, and we had better positioning on multiple picks.

You guys sound just like those Josh Mcdaniels/Brian Xanders apologists from the last couple years. Look how that turned out..
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:33 PM    (permalink
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So Fox, Elway and Xanders agreed on every pick, but since you dont, Xanders should be fired? There is a good chance Fox has a clear idea of the kind of players he needs to run the defense he and Allen want. Miller and Irving are better than Mays and Haggan. Our LBers were awful last year. Moore gives us someone in the secondary that can catch (remember how we are last in the league in turnovers every year)?

We all would have loved a top notch DT, but at least the d-line was significantly upgraded by switching to a 4-3 as now Ayers and Doom are on the line.

Why do you think you have better knowledge of the players and how they fit into the scheme we are going to run than the new HC?
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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Fox himself admitted his disappointment in not getting a top defensive tackle. I've come to accept the results of this draft, and I see why each pick was made. I like upgrading our LB core, but what good are LBs when they have no protection upfront? The facts remain; we can't stop the run. Our only defensive tackle under contract is Kevin Vickerson. Our best run-defender is Robert Ayers. Let that sink in for a second. I'm starting to think we will have to target Fat Al Haynesworth..
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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Just ask the Panthers how much Fox values DTs.

On the positive side, you had a good draft (if you don't look at needs). Trust me, you won't regret Nate Irving.
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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Don't you think John Fox knows the team needs DTs? That does not mean the Broncos had to throw the draft board away and start drafting anybody that plays DT. When Fox was hired, he said the team had to improve, first of all, the talent on the roster.

Elway, Fox and Xanders were loyal to the draft board and got the best players for the scheme. The team is switching to the 4-3 and needed more speed at LB. Haggan, Mays... Scrubs in the 4-3. Haggan might even move to DE with all that weight. Mays is short, slow and can't cover. He is a 2-down thumper for a 3-4. DJ Williams is about to face suspension and his natural position is WLB.

The Broncos had Nate Irving as his #1 MLB, and got him in the 3rd round. DE Jeremy Beal as a 7th round compensatory pick was a steal in my opinion. The team spent a lot of time and money building the draft board. The main DTs went in the 1st round. Marvin Austin was probably removed from the board due to character concerns. Stephen Paea is undersized and raw, a lot of teams passed on him.

The Broncos had other players rated higher. Rahim Moore, the #1 FS. Orlando Franklin, the most physical OT that plays like a Raven. Just calm down and wait until the final roster for 2011 is ready, then we can start worrying about the DTs. The team can focus on free agency, make trades. It's still early to panic and cast the stones.
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Old 05-01-2011, 12:13 AM    (permalink
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I still think we had a decent draft (I graded it out as a C), but we can't be blind to the facts here. Year in and year out, we have ignored the interior of the defensive line. I was hoping we'd finally address the issue instead of patching it up with more FA additions. I was wrong. Let me be clear; I'm not saying the sky is falling or casting any stones. I'm just worried about an obvious weakness that has plagued this team for years now.
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Old 05-01-2011, 12:59 AM    (permalink
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I was freaking out but the way I see it...
-Fox said signing Bannan/Williams back was not out of the question, so it is definitely possibly that one of these guys will come back. They aren't studs by any means and they won't offer much to the pass rush, but I think they definitely are run stoppers and offer some good depth/experience at that position.
-Then you take a look at Marcus Thomas who had a solid year for us possibly coming back, and you realize we might actually have a starter in him. He's developed well, would be going to his natural position (4-3 DT), is young, and isn't super expensive.
-Then we possibly go out and get a Coffiel or a Mebane, both of whom are good DTs, that can play well against the run and offer something as far as interior pass rushing goes.
-And finally maybe we bring someone like Martin Parker into camp and he shows enough to be at least a rotational player who can contribute in the run game

So you end up having a DT group that is something like...
Vickerson/Coffiel/Bannan/Parker/Thomas

That isn't the best DT group in the league, but it is a solid group, especially against the run. Considering that we will likely be getting a great pass rush from other guys on our team (I think Ayers really steps up his pass rushing game at his natural position, Miller will be a beast from the edge, and Doom is a Doom), we'll have a pretty good pass rush too from our front 7.

I'm a fan of building through the draft, and I think we should have gotten defensive line. But really after Jurrell Casey was gone I didn't really have anyone rated too highly to go after that, so ignoring some linemen there might have been a good idea. At the end of the day we didn't get the linemen in the draft, but transaction periods are not over. There will be time to sign free agents and to get some UDFA's. Both of these ways to get players can really solidify the interior of our line, and really make our defense pretty tough next year.
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Old 05-01-2011, 03:53 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoliver View Post
Don't you think John Fox knows the team needs DTs? That does not mean the Broncos had to throw the draft board away and start drafting anybody that plays DT. When Fox was hired, he said the team had to improve, first of all, the talent on the roster.

Elway, Fox and Xanders were loyal to the draft board and got the best players for the scheme. The team is switching to the 4-3 and needed more speed at LB. Haggan, Mays... Scrubs in the 4-3. Haggan might even move to DE with all that weight. Mays is short, slow and can't cover. He is a 2-down thumper for a 3-4. DJ Williams is about to face suspension and his natural position is WLB.

The Broncos had Nate Irving as his #1 MLB, and got him in the 3rd round. DE Jeremy Beal as a 7th round compensatory pick was a steal in my opinion. The team spent a lot of time and money building the draft board. The main DTs went in the 1st round. Marvin Austin was probably removed from the board due to character concerns. Stephen Paea is undersized and raw, a lot of teams passed on him.

The Broncos had other players rated higher. Rahim Moore, the #1 FS. Orlando Franklin, the most physical OT that plays like a Raven. Just calm down and wait until the final roster for 2011 is ready, then we can start worrying about the DTs. The team can focus on free agency, make trades. It's still early to panic and cast the stones.
This is the entire point - if we took 2 DTs in the first two rounds, does anyone really think our defense would be better? We would have a useless LB core that couldnt stop anyone in the run or short passing game. There were many holes, and this weekend we got better. Are we complete yet - hell no, but McD didnt leave much of a roster.
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Old 05-01-2011, 07:52 AM    (permalink
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and here i was, thinking that we could overhaul an entire defense in one draft...
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Old 05-01-2011, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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No DT's is the draft is a little weird, but there's a hot rumor flying around about Kyle Orton for Albert Haynesworth.

Not sure how much I like that, but hard to complain about the value we'd be getting back if Haynesworth turned into the Titan's Haynesworth instead of the Redskin's Haynesworth. Not to mention Vickerson, McBean, Marcus Thomas, Fox might be happy with these guys. I think we'll resign Bannan as well.

Looking at the draft as a whole, I'm pretty happy with it.


1 2 (2) Miller, Von LB
2 13 (45) Moore, Rahim FS
2 14 (46) Franklin, Orlando OL
3 3 (67) Irving, Nate LB
4 11 (108) Carter, Quinton DB
4 32 (129) Thomas, Julius TE
6 24 (189) Mohamed, Mike LB
7 1 (204) Green, Virgil TE
7 44 (247) Beal, Jeremy DL

Von Miller is an explosive player, I am really excited to see him and Dumervil on the field together on third downs. Our safety play was downright terrible last year so getting the two safeties is pretty huge for the defense. I could easily see Moore and Carter starting next year especially if Dawkins looses another step this year like he did last year.

I can see Franklin starting at LG, and we can finally stop letting Hochstien / Daniels get destroyed on every play. The line shaping up to look like Clady / Franklin / Walton / Kuper / Beadles. Something like that I guess we'll see. We have options at the OL now, I do think the Franklin pick means we won't resign Ryan Harris now though. I like Harris a few years ago.

The Tight ends are interesting. Both of them have tremendous upside as playmaking tight ends. The tight ends we have on the roster now in Quinn, Gronkowski, and Coats. Aren't really playmakers. After seeing what Brady did last year with his Gronkowski and Hernandez, if we can get half of that production out of Green and Thomas then those picks would of been worth it.

I like the other 3 picks as well. Nate Irving should plug right in the middle, I wasn't really a fan of Joe Mays in a 4-3 and I'd much prefer keeping DJ as an OLB. I really don't know anything about the Mohamed guy, but someone compared him to Spencer Larsen, who we already have one of so why do we need another, I guess we'll see. The DE should be nice in the rotation with Ayers Dumervil and Hunter.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the draft. Free Agency and the sort needs to start so we can really see how the team is going to shape up.
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Old 09-16-2011, 01:44 AM    (permalink
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Okay. Now we've seen the final roster for the 2011 season. And it stinks. Ryan McBean and Mitch Unrein at DT. You can't put these guys on the 53-man roster and expect to win. The Broncos should have signed better DTs when Warren and Thomas suffered their injuries. Warren should be placed on IR, he's wasting a roster spot and will not play this season. Kevin Vickerson is awful and lost 30 pounds. Darcel McBath waived. We are desperately waiting for Marcus Thomas to return, and he is not even that good. The #2 TE is a basketball player that can jump but can't block. We will miss Richard Quinn. The RT plays like an OG. It's a disaster. I don't like Joe Mays, he can deliver a big hit but misses easy tackles. Time to panic.
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Old 09-16-2011, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoliver View Post
Okay. Now we've seen the final roster for the 2011 season. And it stinks.
Yep. One of the justifications given for not making many moves from waivers or the remaining FA pool was that whoever they brought in wouldn't have had the benefit of the (limited) TC. That rationale speaks strongly to "win now"... if you are truely rebuilding, you'd go for potential talent and to hell with the crap that passed as offseason preparation this year.

I honestly believe the FO is trying to work a delicate balancing act between grabbing a few more wins and rebuilding the team. That's a big challenge under any circumstances... even moreso when you don't proprerly address the fundamental weaknesses on the team. My gut feeling is that they won't achieve the goals they've set out for themselves this year, which will bring on a true rebuilding effort next year.

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