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Old 05-11-2011, 11:58 PM    (permalink
M.O.T.H.
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Originally Posted by SeanTaylorRIP View Post
Houston could be an interesting landing spot maybe something like

Dwight Howard and Hedo for

Kevin Martin, Luis Scola, Patrick Patterson, Courtney Lee, Jordan Hill, Terrence Williams, 2011 lottery pick.

Houston obviously is giving up so many young talented players and taking on Hedo's contract but their lineup would still be:

PG:Kyle Lowry/Goran Dragic
SG: Chase Budinger
SF: Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Chuck Hayes/Brad Miller
C: Dwight Howard/Hasheem Thabeet
And if Yao ever came back ZOMG Yao+D12

Magic new lineup would be:

PG: Jameer Nelson/Gilbert Arenas
SG: Kevin Martin/Courtney Lee/JJ Reddick
SF: Earl Clark/Terrence Williams
PF: Brandon Bass/Ryan Anderson/Jordan Hill
C: Luis Scola/Patrick Paterson/Daniel Orton
-----------------------------------

Another random trade idea D12 for Devin Harris, Derrick Favors, Paul Milsap, Utah's 2 lottery picks this year
The whole point would be to get Howard to play with another star. Houston just isnt that team. You really have to look at teams with at least one super star, that wouldnt have to be involved in a trade to acquire him.

The only real exception to that rule, would probably be the Hawks.
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:10 AM    (permalink
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I was considering starting a NBA 2K11 sim, but now I have no idea where I'm even living this summer. If I figure out wtf is going on I might start one up.
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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I think Howard with CP3 would be sick if a deal could be done. I think if he does end up moving, the most likely spots will be to the Lakers or Nets.
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Old 05-12-2011, 02:25 AM    (permalink
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So much has been made about what the Lakers will do now and what personnel changes they will make etc.

The real question i think though is what will the Celtics do now? Pau Bynum and Kobe have a better chance of making the finals again than KG, Pierce and Allen.

The thing that sucks though is I don't know how much KG and Allen is worth on the open market. Gotta blow the team up and build around PP.
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Old 05-12-2011, 02:39 AM    (permalink
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The whole point would be to get Howard to play with another star. Houston just isnt that team. You really have to look at teams with at least one super star, that wouldnt have to be involved in a trade to acquire him.

The only real exception to that rule, would probably be the Hawks.
They won't trade Dwight Howard to their division, definitely not the Hawks. Most likely not even the same conference.
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Old 05-12-2011, 03:09 AM    (permalink
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They won't trade Dwight Howard to their division, definitely not the Hawks. Most likely not even the same conference.
Probably not...but if desperation calls. They dont want another Shaq situation on their hands. Potentially losing him is bad enough, losing him for nothing is not an option.
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Old 05-12-2011, 03:44 AM    (permalink
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Until the new CBA is in place, there's no trade scenario that can be talked about that will mean anything worth talking about. Will there be a franchise tag? The owners want it. Not sure the players would decline either... because the proposed idea is not to restrict players from leaving in FA like the NFL, but rather, the originating team can offer WAY more money and an extra year to the contract making it very attractive for their star players to stay. Also, there's talk of teams being able to rid one bad contract from being counted against their cap. It happened when the current CBA was implemented, and it has been brought up again. These are just 2 examples... there's also talk about a hard cap... talk of contracts not needing to be matched in trades... all kinds of stuff. So if you want to carry on with day dream scenarios where your favorite team gets Dwight... go on. Just don't expect any of that to be worth a darn.
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Old 05-12-2011, 03:49 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SeanTaylorRIP View Post
What will Jameer get you that will make a big difference? Arenas and Hedo really kill the Magic's flexibility to make a major move. You can keep moving around guys like Nelson, Anderson, Bass, etc but will just have similar trades to the one's you already have done.
If all Jameer can do is clear cap for expiring(s), then it's worth it.

Even without knowing the details of the new CBA, one thing is for certain... cap space makes you powerful.
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Old 05-12-2011, 03:53 AM    (permalink
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Probably not...but if desperation calls. They dont want another Shaq situation on their hands. Potentially losing him is bad enough, losing him for nothing is not an option.
Nah. Losing him for nothing is not necessarily a bad thing. If he wants to turn down $20M a year, then we can spend that $20M on the next big FA. The only trades that will be worth it will be offers sending us elite young players and draft picks. Guys like Bynum and Gasol make ZERO sense. You can't think that this is the last FA that will ever produce premium talent.

Losing Dwight means starting over. We gotta do it the right way.
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:20 AM    (permalink
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So what do the Celtics do now? Try again or blow things up?
I think the role players need to get better and we need help at C
Shaq is a goner and Kristic doesn't seem to be the answer though he looks good in spurts
I like J.Green and D.West coming off the bench. A backup SG maybe?
Wafer isn't the answer!
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:28 AM    (permalink
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So what do the Celtics do now? Try again or blow things up?
I think the role players need to get better and we need help at C
Shaq is a goner and Kristic doesn't seem to be the answer though he looks good in spurts
IMO they don't need to blow it up and start over, but they need to begin a transition period. They don't have anything left at center, don't have anything at forward outside of Garnett (I consider Jeff Green a SG), and three of their top four players have 13+ years on their odometers.

If I was Boston only guys I would keep going forward are Garnett, Allen, Pierce, Rondo, Green, and Avery Bradley. (I saw Bradley because they really need to see what the kid can bring to the table.)

One guy I think they will miss in the future is Semih Erden.
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:36 AM    (permalink
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I started editing my post then stepped away from the comp, my bad.

I agree @ Erden. I have no idea why they got rid of him for nothing.
J.Green is as big, if not bigger than LBJ. He's definitely a 3. Not a 2.
Plays a little 4 as well.

Is there anywhere I can look up the upcoming UFA's?
I'm interested at what the Celts might look at.
I doubt we make any trades. I don't think we have any tradeable assets.
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:28 AM    (permalink
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Nah. Losing him for nothing is not necessarily a bad thing. If he wants to turn down $20M a year, then we can spend that $20M on the next big FA. The only trades that will be worth it will be offers sending us elite young players and draft picks. Guys like Bynum and Gasol make ZERO sense. You can't think that this is the last FA that will ever produce premium talent.

Losing Dwight means starting over. We gotta do it the right way.
Orlando is a financial mess. Even without Dwight...they have nothing to spend on FAs for a while yet. They're the 2nd highest paid team in the league and still tied to a lot of hefty contracts, for years. It aint gonna be easy to clear cap space, assuming everything remains pretty close to the same as the current cap structure.

As for Jameer...no way they send him off, in hope that Arenas can start. Arenas looks closer to retirement than a ressurgence. Hell, he was benched during the playoffs...he was out of the rotation. But we had to play him. Luckily, he played well...for one game. But he's terrible, expectations should remain low.

If Dwight is leaving...they're def. getting something for him. They're not going to get "elite" young talent for him. But they'd be smart to get youthful building blocks. I've said it many times...I would hope OKC would get involved, because they have a lot to offer, but even that's doubtful. OKC is going to be great for a long time, with or without Howard. They dont need to make any moves. Even though, I dont trust him because of injuries...I dont see how Bynum doesnt make sense. He's like 23, and a skilled big man. Granted, his "basketball age" is probably a lot older than that. But he certainly fits into that "youthful talent" category. I still dont want him...but it would make sense, if they thought he could still have a long career.

There is literally a 0% chance that they let him walk for nothing. Not after what happened with Shaq. No chance in hell. Not with a new stadium, that they must fill. Fans are going to be pissed off enough if he leaves...they wont even come if they dont get something for him.

Howard leaving is devastating to the franchise in many ways. They gotta get whatever they can, if he decides to leave. Before Howard arrived, Orlando was one of those NBA teams in limbo. They were pretty damn close to moving to Kansas City at one time. The arena would be empty enough without Howard, but you're just going to have even more pissed off fans...if you had the opportunity to bring talent in and you just let him leave for free. It all falls on Dwight...he has to make up his mind in a rather timely manner.
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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I started editing my post then stepped away from the comp, my bad.

I agree @ Erden. I have no idea why they got rid of him for nothing.
J.Green is as big, if not bigger than LBJ. He's definitely a 3. Not a 2.
Plays a little 4 as well.

Is there anywhere I can look up the upcoming UFA's?
I'm interested at what the Celts might look at.
I doubt we make any trades. I don't think we have any tradeable assets.
Green is a 3/4. Not a 2 in any way. And really, he should be playing the 3 full time in the NBA. Trading for him really made no sense in the first place. I really thought that Green could flourish starting at SF for someone. He's not in the greatest situation again.
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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The Nets may become a front runner for Howard down the line. Because they have tons of money available and some youth to offer. It would have been much easier to project, had the Nets still had a lottery pick.

But a deal involving Lopez, Morrow, James, and a bunch of picks isnt out of the realm of possibilities.

Nets Receive:

C Dwight Howard

Magic Receive:

C Brook Lopez
SG Anthony Morrow
SF Damion James
Draft Picks

Orlando gets some building blocks and the Nets get a Deron Williams/Dwight Howard combo. Again, would be much better if the Nets still had that lottery pick, that the Jazz now own.

With the Nets having money...maybe it's even possible for them to take one of Orlando's bad contracts with them as well. The Nets are certainly a possibility. The conversation would start at Brook, but can branch out multiple ways from there.
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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To be honest I just think that's a horrible deal for Howard unless it's like 8 first round picks. Once the Nets get Howard to add to Deron Williams those future picks become worthless, they immediately become late firsts. So essentially you are trading the most dominant big man since Shaq for Brook Lopez and filler. Guys like Morrow and Damion James in the big picture are unlikely to ever make a big impact. They aren't any better than Earl Clark and Reddick and the liklihood of either become a full time starter is not great.
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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I agree ^^^

but I don't think there's a scenerio where draft picks from any team will become late 1st though.
And as far as Bropez, I'd take him over Bynam bc I know I can get 80 games from him.
I think Bynum is a better player though when he's actually playing though.
The only way it makes it a good deal for the Magic (Nets trade) is if they can get one or two of their bad contracts off their hands as well.
Then, while you don't have a superstar anymore, you have flexibility to do what you want (or at least more)
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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Agree that that Orlando/New Jersey trade would be terrible for the Magic and what I would do, if I were Danny Ainge, is I would call the Clippers and talk about a possible sign and trade sending a re-signed Jeff Green to the Clippers in return for Chris Kaman. The Clippers have been saying how'd they would like to add more of a veteran and though he isn't a veteran in true age sense, Jeff Green would probably be the most tenured starter on that roster and would fit right in at the 3 while giving the Celtics what they truly need and that is a legitimate big man.
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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Orlando is a financial mess. Even without Dwight...they have nothing to spend on FAs for a while yet. They're the 2nd highest paid team in the league and still tied to a lot of hefty contracts, for years. It aint gonna be easy to clear cap space, assuming everything remains pretty close to the same as the current cap structure.

As for Jameer...no way they send him off, in hope that Arenas can start. Arenas looks closer to retirement than a ressurgence. Hell, he was benched during the playoffs...he was out of the rotation. But we had to play him. Luckily, he played well...for one game. But he's terrible, expectations should remain low.

If Dwight is leaving...they're def. getting something for him. They're not going to get "elite" young talent for him. But they'd be smart to get youthful building blocks. I've said it many times...I would hope OKC would get involved, because they have a lot to offer, but even that's doubtful. OKC is going to be great for a long time, with or without Howard. They dont need to make any moves. Even though, I dont trust him because of injuries...I dont see how Bynum doesnt make sense. He's like 23, and a skilled big man. Granted, his "basketball age" is probably a lot older than that. But he certainly fits into that "youthful talent" category. I still dont want him...but it would make sense, if they thought he could still have a long career.

There is literally a 0% chance that they let him walk for nothing. Not after what happened with Shaq. No chance in hell. Not with a new stadium, that they must fill. Fans are going to be pissed off enough if he leaves...they wont even come if they dont get something for him.

Howard leaving is devastating to the franchise in many ways. They gotta get whatever they can, if he decides to leave. Before Howard arrived, Orlando was one of those NBA teams in limbo. They were pretty damn close to moving to Kansas City at one time. The arena would be empty enough without Howard, but you're just going to have even more pissed off fans...if you had the opportunity to bring talent in and you just let him leave for free. It all falls on Dwight...he has to make up his mind in a rather timely manner.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. If Dwight doesn't resign, they'd have 1 bad year... like the Cavs are having now, and that would be helpful to getting a top pick in 2013. That same summer our cap number would be in the $30-35M dollar range. Remember Turkoglu gave up a portion of his salary on the last year of his deal in order to get traded from TOR to PHX. Hoopshype list's his full salary at $12M, but it won't be that. Redick, Nelson, Bass and Ryno are all FAs that summer. ...and the one big contract we have in 2013 is Arenas. A good GM can easily make that expiring contract worth something that same summer. So it's not a "financial mess" as badly as you make it out to sound. It'd be 1 bad year, then a good start to rebuilding the team the way you want it.

I said the only way we trade Dwight is if we get elite young talent. It makes zero sense for us to take on a Bynum or Gasol who will eat up our cap and they still suck... Bynum because he's fragile, Gasol because he's old and washed up. New Jersey maybe, but we'd have to get Lopez, or else there's no reason to trade with them. So like I said... elite young talent or NO TRADE.

Additionally, the new CBA could change things drastically for the Magic's salary books. There's too much assumption in your post. There will likely be a change or two that will alter the way we can address our future.

OKC totally did it the right way. Lost Rashard Lewis... had a couple of bad years that net them Durant and Westbrook. ORL doesn't need to wait a couple of years. One bad year is all they need to reset themselves. Get a top pick in 2013. If Dwight leaves in 2012, then pawn off all your expirings for draft picks or young complimentary players. Again, those expirings would be Nelson, Redick, Bass, Ryno. Not that difficult to trade those assets seeing as they aren't washed up talents. A team could get good use out of them before the contracts expire.

Spare me the talk of the Magic leaving ORL. That ain't happening anymore with the new arena. That was a threat IF the new arena wasn't built!

ORL has never been a destination that wasn't attractive to FAs. Big named FAs have come here in the past, and they would again if we had the cap space.
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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To be honest I just think that's a horrible deal for Howard unless it's like 8 first round picks. Once the Nets get Howard to add to Deron Williams those future picks become worthless, they immediately become late firsts. So essentially you are trading the most dominant big man since Shaq for Brook Lopez and filler. Guys like Morrow and Damion James in the big picture are unlikely to ever make a big impact. They aren't any better than Earl Clark and Reddick and the liklihood of either become a full time starter is not great.
There isnt going to be a lot of great deals out there. While Lopez has his critics, he's a pretty good trade chip. He's a young talented C...sure he doesnt rebound, but he's a good building block. As I said, if the Nets had that lottery pick still, it'd be a little easier to project. Because that would have been what? A top 6ish pick? But also...Orlando may be able to unload some of their crappy contracts in a deal as well.

The list of suitors, isnt going to be a long one. There has to be at least one super star in place for Howard, and Orlando needs to land redeemable talent in return. That's just the way it is. He's not looking to leave Orlando for the hell of it...if he leaves, he wants to play with another star player. And there arent many fits out there.
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Old 05-12-2011, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. If Dwight doesn't resign, they'd have 1 bad year... like the Cavs are having now, and that would be helpful to getting a top pick in 2013. That same summer our cap number would be in the $30-35M dollar range. Remember Turkoglu gave up a portion of his salary on the last year of his deal in order to get traded from TOR to PHX. Hoopshype list's his full salary at $12M, but it won't be that. Redick, Nelson, Bass and Ryno are all FAs that summer. ...and the one big contract we have in 2013 is Arenas. A good GM can easily make that expiring contract worth something that same summer. So it's not a "financial mess" as badly as you make it out to sound. It'd be 1 bad year, then a good start to rebuilding the team the way you want it.

I said the only way we trade Dwight is if we get elite young talent. It makes zero sense for us to take on a Bynum or Gasol who will eat up our cap and they still suck... Bynum because he's fragile, Gasol because he's old and washed up. New Jersey maybe, but we'd have to get Lopez, or else there's no reason to trade with them. So like I said... elite young talent or NO TRADE.

Additionally, the new CBA could change things drastically for the Magic's salary books. There's too much assumption in your post. There will likely be a change or two that will alter the way we can address our future.

OKC totally did it the right way. Lost Rashard Lewis... had a couple of bad years that net them Durant and Westbrook. ORL doesn't need to wait a couple of years. One bad year is all they need to reset themselves. Get a top pick in 2013. If Dwight leaves in 2012, then pawn off all your expirings for draft picks or young complimentary players. Again, those expirings would be Nelson, Redick, Bass, Ryno. Not that difficult to trade those assets seeing as they aren't washed up talents. A team could get good use out of them before the contracts expire.

Spare me the talk of the Magic leaving ORL. That ain't happening anymore with the new arena. That was a threat IF the new arena wasn't built!

ORL has never been a destination that wasn't attractive to FAs. Big named FAs have come here in the past, and they would again if we had the cap space.
Orlando isnt in danger of moving. No. That's not even what I was getting at. But they can get into serious trouble very quickly. Orlando doesnt sell out with Dwight...good luck getting anyone to come without him. They're not going to be in danger of moving, with a new arena in place. But things will get pretty sketchy financially, without him more than likely. And that could hurt Orlando in a plethera of ways, especially with specific CBA changes. Orlando is still considered a smaller market team. They havent spent like one recently, but I'm sure they wont hesistate to going back to those days, if they cant manage to get butts in the seats.

I'm telling you, there is no way they let him walk for nothing. Guaranteed. So his full contract wont be coming off the books, anyway. Potentially a very large chunk, if they made a deal with the Nets, however. But still, a decision on this matter is going to happen either this off-season or during the regular season. The Shaq nightmare still weighs heavily on the franchise and the fans. There is no way they let it happen twice. Just no chance.

I certainly wont dispute that Orlando is a fantastic FA destination. The money could just take a while to get there. At least enough to make runs at star type talent. And even without Howard...with our luck, Orlando still manages a decent enough record to avoid very high lottery selections.

I'll agree that a lot can change...based off of the CBA arrangements. So a lot of the talk is pointless. But one thing that is a certainty...is that if he leaves, Orlando wont be leaving empty handed. He'd be traded, and not just for cap relief.
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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Orlando isnt in danger of moving. No. That's not even what I was getting at. But they can get into serious trouble very quickly. Orlando doesnt sell out with Dwight...good luck getting anyone to come without him. They're not going to be in danger of moving, with a new arena in place. But things will get pretty sketchy financially, without him more than likely. And that could hurt Orlando in a plethera of ways, especially with specific CBA changes. Orlando is still considered a smaller market team. They havent spent like one recently, but I'm sure they wont hesistate to going back to those days, if they cant manage to get butts in the seats.

I'm telling you, there is no way they let him walk for nothing. Guaranteed. So his full contract wont be coming off the books, anyway. Potentially a very large chunk, if they made a deal with the Nets, however. But still, a decision on this matter is going to happen either this off-season or during the regular season. The Shaq nightmare still weighs heavily on the franchise and the fans. There is no way they let it happen twice. Just no chance.

I certainly wont dispute that Orlando is a fantastic FA destination. The money could just take a while to get there. At least enough to make runs at star type talent. And even without Howard...with our luck, Orlando still manages a decent enough record to avoid very high lottery selections.

I'll agree that a lot can change...based off of the CBA arrangements. So a lot of the talk is pointless. But one thing that is a certainty...is that if he leaves, Orlando wont be leaving empty handed. He'd be traded, and not just for cap relief.
As I said before... regardless of the new CBA, one thing is for certain. Salary cap space will be just as important if not even more so (if they implement a hard cap).

Trading Dwight for the sake of getting a return (that isn't a pretty safe championship quality player) makes no sense.

The city and team isn't going to crumble financially with 1 or 2 bad years. At the very least in 2 years from Dwight leaving, 2014 will be an bare roster. We could literally start from scratch. Trading for guys who will prevent that having big expensive salaries ($20M+ has to come back in matching Dwight's new salary) is totally unwise and would set this franchise back even further.

The team cannot operate unwisely just to satisfy fans who remember what Shaq did. It wasn't Shaq leaving that ruined the franchise. It's how the team failed to rebuild that was. OMG, please don't let general fan opinion run the franchise... good grief.
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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There isnt going to be a lot of great deals out there. While Lopez has his critics, he's a pretty good trade chip. He's a young talented C...sure he doesnt rebound, but he's a good building block. As I said, if the Nets had that lottery pick still, it'd be a little easier to project. Because that would have been what? A top 6ish pick? But also...Orlando may be able to unload some of their crappy contracts in a deal as well.

The list of suitors, isnt going to be a long one. There has to be at least one super star in place for Howard, and Orlando needs to land redeemable talent in return. That's just the way it is. He's not looking to leave Orlando for the hell of it...if he leaves, he wants to play with another star player. And there arent many fits out there.
MOTH is right about the list of suitors not being a long list. The list of trade partners with Orlando should only be limited to those teams who have the cap space to sign him outright.

LA is out of it. They can't sign Dwight outright, so they don't put any pressure on ORL to trade him there. Dwight can't/won't say "Trade me to LA or I'll sign with them for the MLE". Makes no sense. Neither can he say "Trade me to LA or I'll leave you for the Nets (or any other team under the cap)". For one, if that is known, then LA won't give up the goods for Dwight. Secondly, there's not enough pressure to do a trade until the time comes. So ORL could wait it out and see if Dwight really is going to leave ORL for NJ. Either way, LA ain't getting him.

So you see, the only logical places where Dwight can be traded to are to teams under the cap far enough to afford Dwight AND another superstar to pair with him. New Jersey could be a place. Who else? I don't know.
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Old 05-12-2011, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Y'all can keep Dwight. CP3 is who i'm dreaming about =). If...if...IF...we can land him somehow....buying his jersey the day it gets released lol
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Old 05-12-2011, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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As I said before... regardless of the new CBA, one thing is for certain. Salary cap space will be just as important if not even more so (if they implement a hard cap).

Trading Dwight for the sake of getting a return (that isn't a pretty safe championship quality player) makes no sense.

The city and team isn't going to crumble financially with 1 or 2 bad years. At the very least in 2 years from Dwight leaving, 2014 will be an bare roster. We could literally start from scratch. Trading for guys who will prevent that having big expensive salaries ($20M+ has to come back in matching Dwight's new salary) is totally unwise and would set this franchise back even further.

The team cannot operate unwisely just to satisfy fans who remember what Shaq did. It wasn't Shaq leaving that ruined the franchise. It's how the team failed to rebuild that was. OMG, please don't let general fan opinion run the franchise... good grief.
It's a business, brother. The name of the game is sales. Gotta keep that fan base happy. It's common sense that they have to get talent back for Howard. It's going to happen, if he's leaving. But...that doesnt mean they'll be bogged down with bad contracts in return.

Say it's the Lakers...you get Bynum and Odom. Bynum's a young building block (one I dont like, mind you), and Odom only has two years left on his deal. And if this was to happen at the deadline...you could potentially be looking at just a half season of Odom.

If it's the Nets...player salary doesnt even need to add up. The Nets are going to have roughly $20 million in cap room. You get Brook Lopez, two decent enough players, some picks, and cap relief.

Orlando can get good young players back for Dwight. It's not like I'm not talking about adding a bunch of scrubs to the team with bad contracts.

It just sucks that there arent a lot of great fits out there. The Clippers/Thunder could make some gaudier offers as well, but I doubt either will. Well the Clippers might...they always seem interested when super stars are available.
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