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Old 05-21-2011, 04:03 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Originally Posted by Boss+Manning=Banning View Post
No we didn't. Good, That's next year! Right now we have Webster, TT, Ross and Johnson. It's not like CB was a need. Osi was coming off injury, but we still had Tuck, Kiwi and Tolly, who has played well. Again, DE was NOT a need.

We wanted someone who can be our McCluster, or Hixon 2.0. Jerrigan was the BPA and Reese said we wanted to get faster. And so we did. Even on the defensive side of the ball we did too.
Look, Ross is always hurt anyway, even if he weren't an FA. Maybe if he were locked up long term it wouldn't be a round one need, but with his injuries, Web's age and TT's struggles this season we absolutely needed another corner. As BBD said, you need at least 3 good corners to match up with the better offenses in the NFL, we had 2.5 good ones.

Tuck is another injury prone player who we need a strong back up for, Kiwi didn't really play up to his talent until this past offseason, now us moving him around was a big part of that, but he was still a question mark and Tolly is nothing more than average. You can't have a great D with an old DE coming off a serious injury that hampered his season, an injury prone DE and guy who has been moved around between DE and LB too many times to establish himself, especially when that young unproven guy and the old guy where fast approaching their contract's expiration.

Plus you don't draft for one year, very few rookies are able to step in and play consistently well, that's why you need to draft for the future so that you can work guys through a lot of their rookie issues before having to rely on them.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-21-2011, 05:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Boss+Manning=Banning View Post
No we didn't. Good, That's next year! Right now we have Webster, TT, Ross and Johnson. It's not like CB was a need. Osi was coming off injury, but we still had Tuck, Kiwi and Tolly, who has played well. Again, DE was NOT a need.

We wanted someone who can be our McCluster, or Hixon 2.0. Jerrigan was the BPA and Reese said we wanted to get faster. And so we did. Even on the defensive side of the ball we did too.
Listen guy. I'm gonna save you a lot of pain and suffering right now. When April of next year rolls by, you will accept your mid round developmental OG/C, your mid round RB, and mid round TE and you will deal with it mister! :p

Come on Boss, you know that's how it's going to play out. You know the drill by now, first 2 rounds will be defense, then you'll get your project offensive players in the mid rounds and some height/weight/speed guys in the late rounds and be happy with it.
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Old 05-21-2011, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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Listen guy. I'm gonna save you a lot of pain and suffering right now. When April of next year rolls by, you will accept your mid round developmental OG/C, your mid round RB, and mid round TE and you will deal with it mister! :p

Come on Boss, you know that's how it's going to play out. You know the drill by now, first 2 rounds will be defense, then you'll get your project offensive players in the mid rounds and some height/weight/speed guys in the late rounds and be happy with it.
Yes'm sir... I know it's going to be that too!

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Old 05-21-2011, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Look, Ross is always hurt anyway, even if he weren't an FA. Maybe if he were locked up long term it wouldn't be a round one need, but with his injuries, Web's age and TT's struggles this season we absolutely needed another corner. As BBD said, you need at least 3 good corners to match up with the better offenses in the NFL, we had 2.5 good ones.

Tuck is another injury prone player who we need a strong back up for, Kiwi didn't really play up to his talent until this past offseason, now us moving him around was a big part of that, but he was still a question mark and Tolly is nothing more than average. You can't have a great D with an old DE coming off a serious injury that hampered his season, an injury prone DE and guy who has been moved around between DE and LB too many times to establish himself, especially when that young unproven guy and the old guy where fast approaching their contract's expiration.

Plus you don't draft for one year, very few rookies are able to step in and play consistently well, that's why you need to draft for the future so that you can work guys through a lot of their rookie issues before having to rely on them.

Tuck has been in the past with shoulder stuff, but is fine now. Yes, ross is always hurt, which is why he never was a starter. He has been passed over. He has been fine health wise, but I don't see him winning the position either as 1 or 2. He is still under contract ANd we have Bruce Johnson who showed promise. Point being CB was a luxury pick because of BPA, not a need.

You are drafting BPA and it has nothing to do with need or that year. Now, if that value fits a need within that specific grade or tier system, then so be it. Like Coughlin and Ross always say. But it's BPA.

We never usually give rookies a shot anyways. Coughlin tends to redshirt our rookies and then play them.
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Old 05-22-2011, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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Exactly, if we're redshirting rookies anyway we should be targetting soon to be needs like DE was when we drafted Kiwi or JPP or the way CB was this draft.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-22-2011, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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Exactly, if we're redshirting rookies anyway we should be targetting soon to be needs like DE was when we drafted Kiwi or JPP or the way CB was this draft.
But we won't.. Reese seems to always go BPA. If that fills a need then so be it. if not, then we just stack up a position we don't need.
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Old 05-22-2011, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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But we won't.. Reese seems to always go BPA. If that fills a need then so be it. if not, then we just stack up a position we don't need.
We have yet to stack up a position we don't need under Reese...
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-22-2011, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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We have yet to stack up a position we don't need under Reese...
Of course we have. JPP, when we had Kiwi, Tuck, Osi, and Tolly. Osi was coming of an injury, but we didn't NEED a DE. Same this year with Prince. He was clearly BPA, we didn't NEED a CB. It was a luxury pick due to BPA. In fact, as I type I am re-watching all the pressers by Ross, Coughlin, and Reese. It basically solidifies my point on BPA.

We needed OL, some say LB, or even RB. But we went with CB and DT.
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Old 05-22-2011, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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Of course we have. JPP, when we had Kiwi, Tuck, Osi, and Tolly. Osi was coming of an injury, but we didn't NEED a DE. Same this year with Prince. He was clearly BPA, we didn't NEED a CB. It was a luxury pick due to BPA. In fact, as I type I am re-watching all the pressers by Ross, Coughlin, and Reese. It basically solidifies my point on BPA.

We needed OL, some say LB, or even RB. But we went with CB and DT.
Your desire for an offensive player is clouding your judgement. And don't believe everything you hear in a press conference, come on now. Of course they're going to say a player they picked was the "best available player".

What do you expect them to say? "Na, we had players on the board rated higher than this guy but we really needed this position so we settled on him"

Come on!

And you know we redshirt rookies. So we can't afford to draft a player in a position the year we need it, bc he won't play anyway. You draft a need position a year before it becomes a need. That way, we redshirt our rookies and let them develop the right way, and when the need pops up a year later we plug and play.

That's what the good organizations do. The Eagles have been doing it for years. They draft a year ahead. So when a guy goes down or is out the door, the replacement is already in the building.

CB is a need. I've been an advocate of a CB for awhile now. You always need at least 3 good CBs in your rotation nowadays. With Webster getting older, Ross AND TT going into contract years, it's very reasonable to think that we lose 1 guy after this season. So when we need a CB next year, guess who's already in the building waiting to be step right up? That's right, Prince.

It was absolutely a need. There's no way in blue hell we resign Ross, and who knows, if TT asks for too much maybe he doesn't come back either. So CB was absolutely a need 2 years from now. So when you factor in how we redshirt, we got our guy at the perfect time. Why do you think I've been talking up Jimmy Smith before the draft? I knew the need for a CB. We addressed the need at the right time. Plus when Prince is needed next year, we don't have to worry about rookie growing pains. Bc he dealt with them during his redshirt year. It's perfect.

Ditto for JPP. We didn't need a DE this year. But we need one once Kiwi is out the door, which could be this year or next depending on the CBA (something we didn't know this time last year). And you know we thrive on having 3 fresh DEs in the rotation. So what do we do? We get his replacement a year in advance, let him develop, and when Kiwi is gone, the replacement is in the building.

That's what we do. That's the right way to draft and build your organization. You shouldn't look at it so negatively, its a great thing! I used to be so envious of the Eagles for having the foresight to draft that way, and now under Reese we finally are doing it.

Even our offense. Look at how we built it up. We have our replacements in house in case some WRs leave.

Even our oline. Kareem McKenzie is in his final year of his contract. He's going to play this year. The Giants won't do him dirty. So instead of waiting till next year to get a RT, what do we do? We get his replacement this year, let him develop, then next year we plug and play. The replacement is in the building.

Beatty was drafted to play LT ahead of time. Diehl's replacement? Petrus. Drafted ahead of time. O'Hara's replacement? We've been grooming Koets for the past 2 years for that and extended him this past year.

Everything we need is in house. Bc Reese had the foresight to get his guys in advance. I might not agree with getting oline guys in the mid rounds and developing them in the farm for 2 years, I prefer early round guys, but you can't argue with results, the system works.

Look at our (now aged) oline. Diehl was a mid round guy, Seaburt was UDFA, OHara was a 7th or a UDFA, Snee was a 2nd rounder and McKenzie was a FA.

That oline was great for years, and our highest pick was a 2nd rounder. So the system works, we just have to give our young guys their chance. I believe in our young guys (cautious about Beatty though).

In Reese we trust. The guy knows what he's doing.
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Old 05-23-2011, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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Excellent post BBD. My thoughts exactly.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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We are all forgetting FA too. It's not always the most preferable way, but that how you plug gaps in the development system, like McKenzie. And all of FA is still up in the air because whenever they do play again, no one knows under what terms. But I'm sure the front office will have the ability to react or adapt.
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Old 05-23-2011, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Our roster seems pretty full already so I'm not sure what we're going to do when FA rolls around. I guess it all depends on which player we re-sign.
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Old 05-23-2011, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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Your desire for an offensive player is clouding your judgement. And don't believe everything you hear in a press conference, come on now. Of course they're going to say a player they picked was the "best available player".

What do you expect them to say? "Na, we had players on the board rated higher than this guy but we really needed this position so we settled on him"

Come on!

And you know we redshirt rookies. So we can't afford to draft a player in a position the year we need it, bc he won't play anyway. You draft a need position a year before it becomes a need. That way, we redshirt our rookies and let them develop the right way, and when the need pops up a year later we plug and play.

That's what the good organizations do. The Eagles have been doing it for years. They draft a year ahead. So when a guy goes down or is out the door, the replacement is already in the building.

CB is a need. I've been an advocate of a CB for awhile now. You always need at least 3 good CBs in your rotation nowadays. With Webster getting older, Ross AND TT going into contract years, it's very reasonable to think that we lose 1 guy after this season. So when we need a CB next year, guess who's already in the building waiting to be step right up? That's right, Prince.

It was absolutely a need. There's no way in blue hell we resign Ross, and who knows, if TT asks for too much maybe he doesn't come back either. So CB was absolutely a need 2 years from now. So when you factor in how we redshirt, we got our guy at the perfect time. Why do you think I've been talking up Jimmy Smith before the draft? I knew the need for a CB. We addressed the need at the right time. Plus when Prince is needed next year, we don't have to worry about rookie growing pains. Bc he dealt with them during his redshirt year. It's perfect.

Ditto for JPP. We didn't need a DE this year. But we need one once Kiwi is out the door, which could be this year or next depending on the CBA (something we didn't know this time last year). And you know we thrive on having 3 fresh DEs in the rotation. So what do we do? We get his replacement a year in advance, let him develop, and when Kiwi is gone, the replacement is in the building.

That's what we do. That's the right way to draft and build your organization. You shouldn't look at it so negatively, its a great thing! I used to be so envious of the Eagles for having the foresight to draft that way, and now under Reese we finally are doing it.

Even our offense. Look at how we built it up. We have our replacements in house in case some WRs leave.

Even our oline. Kareem McKenzie is in his final year of his contract. He's going to play this year. The Giants won't do him dirty. So instead of waiting till next year to get a RT, what do we do? We get his replacement this year, let him develop, then next year we plug and play. The replacement is in the building.

Beatty was drafted to play LT ahead of time. Diehl's replacement? Petrus. Drafted ahead of time. O'Hara's replacement? We've been grooming Koets for the past 2 years for that and extended him this past year.

Everything we need is in house. Bc Reese had the foresight to get his guys in advance. I might not agree with getting oline guys in the mid rounds and developing them in the farm for 2 years, I prefer early round guys, but you can't argue with results, the system works.

Look at our (now aged) oline. Diehl was a mid round guy, Seaburt was UDFA, OHara was a 7th or a UDFA, Snee was a 2nd rounder and McKenzie was a FA.

That oline was great for years, and our highest pick was a 2nd rounder. So the system works, we just have to give our young guys their chance. I believe in our young guys (cautious about Beatty though).

In Reese we trust. The guy knows what he's doing.
No, not at all. I want an offensive player, but we drafted BPA. Just re-watch vidoes. You can tell Ross was giddy that they got BPA and those players fell. He looked like a 14 year old girl who just got asked out by the most popular kid in school.

And I expect them to say something like we got a top rated player we had on our radar, or just deflect the question. They don't need to volunteer the information!

Be realistic!

Yeah and this year was heavy on the DE. If we didn't draft JPP we could have drafted a DE this year IF we drafted for need. However, JPP was ranked high on our board and we drafted him. I don't understand the complexity of that.

And there is something in general, in "normal" years not with lockout stuff overhead called free agency. Hell, we are even allowed to sign and allow undrafted free agents to make the team. So of course we are going to draft BPA and not worry about drafting for need.
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