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Old 03-28-2007, 07:20 PM    (permalink
Shiver
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Well, agree to disagree. I think Julius Peppers has been, easily, the best DE in football for the past three years.
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Well, agree to disagree. I think Julius Peppers has been, easily, the best DE in football for the past three years.
I'll say this and leave it at that, because of the fact that Im a Giants fan, I can easily see someone go "oh yeah well Osi sucks" as some form of irrelevant retaliation and destroy the point of this thread.

I think Peppers has been the most consistent DE in the NFL the past 3 years. But he has never been the best DE in the NFL in any of those 3 years. He's been upper tier all 3, and its hard for DEs to produce with that kind of consistency, but for all the accolades he gets, you expected a little more. Thats all Im saying. He's supposed to be even better than he is now. To me, he hasn't fully utilized his physical gifts yet. He's still not great at the mental aspect of the game.
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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This, I found, was a fascinating article. It explains why Julius Peppers is the best Defensive player in football, according to most people:

Football Outsiders; Every Play Counts

Quote:
by Michael David Smith

Is Julius Peppers underrated? That might seem like a silly question because everyone who follows football knows that Peppers is a good player, a rare talent who has not only the typical strength of a defensive end but also the speed and athleticism of the power forward he once was. But watching Peppers on every play of the Carolina Panthers’ 23-21 victory over the Baltimore Ravens, my jaw dropped at seeing not just a good or even very good player, but a defensive lineman doing things I didn’t think a defensive lineman could do.

Baltimore’s blocking schemes revolved around controlling Peppers. On each play of the Ravens’ first possession, both right tackle Tony Pashos and running back Jamal Lewis blocked Peppers. All three plays were passes, and on all three Lewis chipped Peppers before running his route because the Ravens figured that Pashos couldn’t keep Peppers off quarterback Steve McNair without Lewis’s help. Peppers didn’t do anything extraordinary on that possession, but just seeing the way Baltimore opened the game showed how much its game plan focused on Peppers.

On the second possession, Baltimore still doubled Peppers, with little success. On the first play of the series both Pashos and right guard Keydrick Vincent blocked Peppers. On the second play, Vincent held Peppers, but it wasn’t called. On the third play, Peppers bull-rushed Vincent, collapsing the pocket and forcing McNair into a bad throw, which strong safety Colin Branch intercepted. At this point, the Panthers’ defense had been on the field for six plays. Peppers had been doubled four times and held once, and on the one play he was neither, he forced a turnover.

Holding was Baltimore’s most effective strategy. On a second-and-4 on Baltimore’s fifth possession, Peppers stunted to the inside and Vincent held him. In fact, Vincent held Peppers every time they went one-on-one. Later in the game Pashos started joining Vincent in holding. The officials never called it, though. It was actually a smart tactic. Referee Peter Morelli’s crew was calling the game, and that crew has called by far the fewest holding penalties of any group of officials this year. If the officials aren’t going to call it, the linemen might as well do it. My advice to all offensive linemen: When Morelli works your game, just hold all day.

On the Ravens’ third possession, Carolina’s defense revealed a different wrinkle when Peppers dropped into coverage on first-and-10. Peppers’ presence kept McNair from having an easy checkdown to Lewis or tight end Todd Heap, and that forced McNair to hold onto the ball too long. Linebacker Chris Draft and defensive end Mike Rucker sacked him, knocking him out of the game.

Peppers dropped into coverage a few more times as Carolina zone-blitzed with Draft or other linebackers. On a first-and-10 in the third quarter, Todd Heap went in motion to the right and Peppers dropped back to cover Heap, which would usually be a linebacker’s job. Kyle Boller (who played most of the game in relief of McNair) rolled to his right and threw to Heap, and Peppers tackled him for a nine-yard gain. In general, I don’t like that strategy for the Panthers. Why not have Peppers rush the passer so Boller can’t roll to the right in the first place, rather than having Peppers drop back and therefore giving Boller free rein to find someone open? It’s not that Peppers can’t cover the tight end, it’s just that he’s so great at rushing the passer that having him in coverage seems like a waste. It’s an interesting strategy for an occasional change of pace, but generally if the other team is passing and Peppers isn’t rushing, Carolina isn’t using his talents properly.

After the sack that knocked McNair out of the game, Boller’s first two plays were probably Peppers’ most impressive plays of the day. On second-and-19, Peppers lined up at left end. Boller threw a short pass to Lewis along the sideline on the opposite side of the field, and Peppers pursued Lewis across the field and pushed him out of bounds after a gain of only five yards. Defensive ends just aren’t supposed to run down running backs like that, but Peppers did it. And on the next play, Peppers made the tackle in pursuit on the opposite side of the field again. It was third-and-14 and Peppers rushed to the outside. Pashos blocked him, and running back Musa Smith helped with a chip. Boller rolled out and took off running on the other side of the field, and Peppers ran across the field and tackled him for a gain of only six yards.

That pursuit is what separates Peppers from other defensive ends. On third-and-15 on Baltimore’s fourth possession, the Ravens ran a draw to Smith. Peppers started the play on an outside rush. On that type of play, the offense doesn’t worry about the defensive end — even the best defensive ends can’t be expected to rush to the outside and then tackle a running back on a draw up the middle. But when Peppers recognized the draw, he reversed course, drilled Smith and forced a fumble. Peppers isn’t like other defensive ends.

On a first-and-10 later, Mike Anderson took a handoff off the right tackle, running away from Peppers. But when the right side of the Panthers’ defense bottled up Anderson, it was Peppers, pursuing the play from the backside, who tackled Anderson for a loss of two.

While I’m praising Peppers I should acknowledge the obvious, which is that he doesn’t make every play. On a third-and-9 with Boller in the shotgun, Peppers tried to rush to the outside, and Pashos did a nice job allowing him to rush upfield but not collapse the pocket. Boller had time to pick up the first down while Peppers essentially took himself out of the play. But those plays were the exception, and Peppers’ pressure masked some bad coverage from Carolina’s secondary. On a third-and-6 on Baltimore’s sixth possession, Heap beat Carolina defensive back James Anderson and was open deep, but Peppers’ pressure forced Boller to throw the ball without getting completely set, causing an incompletion on what could have been a 40-yard gain. On one first-and-10 in the third quarter, Lewis was left to block Peppers one-on-one. That was a mismatch. Boller rolled to the outside, Peppers got past Lewis and got in Boller’s face, and Boller had to throw the ball away to avoid a sack.

Sacks are the main way defensive linemen get attention, but I haven’t even mentioned Peppers’ two sacks Sunday. One was a first-and-10, when Peppers rushed straight ahead into Pashos, knocked him to the ground, and sacked Boller for a loss of six yards. The other came on a second-and-10 when Peppers rushed to the outside and evaded both Pashos and Vincent. Boller tried to run up the middle, and Peppers reversed course, getting into the middle of the field to sack Boller for a three-yard loss. Peppers shows a very instinctive ability to know where the ball carrier is going. Most defensive ends would have continued to rush to the outside, but Peppers seemed to sense that Boller was going to go up the middle, and he got there in time to sack him.

So if Peppers can sack quarterbacks, run down running backs, and cover tight ends, is there anything he can’t do? If I were an opposing offensive coordinator, I’d try to run directly at him. Peppers is a strong player and a sure tackler, but if he showed any weakness Sunday it was that Pashos sometimes beat him in straight-ahead run blocking. But this is a mere quibble. Peppers showed on Sunday that he’s not just a good player. He’s the best defensive player in the NFL.
I have been able to see Peppers develop, seeing as I watch a lot of NFC South games, and I definitely think he's the best.
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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its the lions, and i am ashamed.
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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i forgot the Cardinals
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:33 PM    (permalink
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Why Julius Peppers is the best Defensive player in football:

Football Outsiders; Every Play Counts



I have been able to see Peppers develop, seeing as I watch a lot of NFC South games, and I definitely think he's the best.

Well, thats an example of one good game. But he also has stretches where he disappears too remember.

Also remember, he's not the only DE in the NFL who's doubled every play. And watching Michael Strahan the last 13 years or so, getting held is a common thing. I can literally point out at least 5 different times a game where Strahan is held, even today's Strahan, the old guy on the left.

The only thing that Peppers does that other great DEs don't do as well, is drop into coverage. Thats the one thing that he can say he does better than any DE in the league. But quite honestly, if we're talking 4-3 defense, I rather have my best pass rusher rush opposed to drop in coverage.

Like I said, he's been consistent as a whole, and a top tier DE, but he hasn't been the BEST in any year outside of one year I believe 3 years ago, his entire career. And for all the acclaim, that article pointed out my biggest issue with Peppers...he's not as good of a run stuffer as he should be.
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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This, I found, was a fascinating article. It explains why Julius Peppers is the best Defensive player in football, according to most people:

Football Outsiders; Every Play Counts



I have been able to see Peppers develop, seeing as I watch a lot of NFC South games, and I definitely think he's the best.
I'll agree ;) the funny thing is that John Fox and Trgovac actually think this year he'll be hitting his peak. If he hasn't peaked yet what the **** are we in for?
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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As of recent the Lions without issue.Cards are a close second along with Cleveland.
In the history of the NFL it has to be the Cards though.The last time they went to the playoffs 98.Before that it was 82.They one a playoff game in 98 but the last time before that was 47.
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Old 03-28-2007, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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boy has this gotten off topic...but listen to this:

1. The Cardinals have never hosted a playoff game, they have won one, but i tthink they fact that they never hosted one is worse than actually winning one. It goes to show you how bad the Cards are...at least the Saints had some decency to finish with a good enough record to host a game.
2. They sign the big name FA, not the RIGHT free agents. What im saying is they needed a guy like Edge, but more so they needed OL or DL. They decdied to go with Edge yet, couldnt open holes for him, nor could the DL close holes.
3. They just cant win...no matter who you put in there, or who you take out they cant win. They just seem to finish 5-11 every eyar with HUGE hopes going in there. Right now they have a decent looking team on paper, amazing stadium and new coaching staff....5-11 once again guys!!!

this is why they are the worst franchise in the NFL. They need a new owner who knows what hes doing. I just cant emphasize enopugh the mere fact that New England needed WR's this offseason, then went out and really cleaned up in that category. They needed a OLB, and they got one. That is what a team who knows how to win does. And thats why NE is where they are and Arizona is where they are.
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Old 03-28-2007, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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  • Reggie Bush becomes Brian Westbrook, except more durable.
  • Vince Young becomes Randall Cunningham.
  • Mario Williams can be Julius Peppers, only bigger, stronger.
Reggie Bush will have to improve a lot when it comes to inside running, Westbrook despite his size is effective inside.
I would love to see Vince turn into the next Randall Cunningham
If Mario can reach his potential he will dominate.
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Old 03-28-2007, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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Reggie Bush will have to improve a lot when it comes to inside running, Westbrook despite his size is effective inside.
I would love to see Vince turn into the next Randall Cunningham
If Mario can reach his potential he will dominate.
Hence why I prefaced those as 'best case' scenarios. In this case, Reggie Bush improving as a runner.
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Old 03-28-2007, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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I'm on the verge of putting the Redskins in the discussion but they had some success a long time ago, so it may be a bit of a stretch. But the way they handle their offseasons is out of control.

LOL the redskins franchise is better than the giants.........5 NFL championships baby
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Old 03-28-2007, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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LOL the redskins franchise is better than the giants.........5 NFL championships baby
Cowboys have 8... booyah
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Old 03-28-2007, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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redskins...

nah, the question isnt wat team is run by the stupidest guy

my vote would goto the lions and the browns
bills might be getting close
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Old 03-29-2007, 12:14 AM    (permalink
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redskins...

nah, the question isnt wat team is run by the stupidest guy

my vote would goto the lions and the browns
bills might be getting close
there is no way you can throw the Bills in there!
they have played in 4 superbowls..regardless of if they won one...lets go through the list of who hasnt even been to one!
1. Cleveland Browns
2. Detriot Lions
3. Arizona Cardinals
4. New Orleans Saints
5. Houtson Texans
6. Jacksonville Jaguars
7. San Diego Chargers

you could also throw in the

Baltimore Ravens
Tennesee Titans/Houston Oilers
Atlanta Falcons
Carolina Panthers


the above 7 have never even made it to ONE superbowl...therefor they are lower than the Bills.

The bottom 4 have only made it to ONE superbowl. Real impressive how you rank a team who made it to 4 SP in 4 years below all of these. They were a dynasty in the AFC in the early 90's. they are no where the worst fracnhise.
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Old 03-29-2007, 12:28 AM    (permalink
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This is something I wanted to give my input on. Its ironic to me, that everyone proclaims Michael Vick as overrated, over hyped. Yet, these are the same people who are anointing Vince Young. Quite frankly; those people are short-sighted.

There is nothing Vince Young did last year, that equaled Michael Vick's '02 season. Michael Vick outclassed Young, as a passer, runner, he led a mediocre team to the playoffs, and a road playoff win, he willed his team to victories that year. However, because he hasn't evolved since then, people conveniently forget about that. Vick didn't progress, for a multitude of reasons, which have been well noted. Thus far, there is no indication that Vince Young will become a elite passer, and runner, at the same time. Actually; it may even be presumptuous to assume he ever matches Michael Vick's '02 season, or even Randall Cunningham in his prime, dominance.



It's amazing that no one recognizes the horrible scheme fit, Reggie Bush was. Even prior to the draft, rumors were the Texans weren't interested in Bush, word from Bush's camp was that the Texans didn't intend on taking him. Yet, everyone was a gasped as to how that could be. If you compare Bush's rushing production to any rookie RB, he was horrible. Even Wali Lundy, Leon Washington, day-2 players, were more productive on the ground. Reggie Bush should be thankful New Orleans took him, otherwise, he would have looked like a bust in Houston. It was never a good fit, which is why they didn't take him. Why people cannot grasp that basic concept, is bewildering to me.



The Texans had one of the most acclaimed drafts last year, yet all anyone can think about is that first pick. To go along with your points, before his plantar fasciitis, he was out-performing his fellow draftees. Those who are vocal against the Texans' draft decision last year, assume Bush will improve as a runner, Young as a passer. Yet, they are hypocritical, because they assume Mario Williams, a 21-year old, won't improve his technique, and pass rush repertoire. Best case:
  • Reggie Bush becomes Brian Westbrook, except more durable.
  • Vince Young becomes Randall Cunningham.
  • Mario Williams can be Julius Peppers, only bigger, stronger.
I know I put it in my rep comment, but still, I love you man. This is basically my opinion too, just put together a hell of a lot better than I'd bother too. Anyway, this is probably the thing that grinds my gears the most, when people write off Mario while praising VY and Bush. As you said, Bush does not fit at all. And VY wasn't even the concensus top QB. There probably wasn't a consensus top one, IIRC they were all lumped together and you could really put them in any order. And if they did draft VY for "ticket sales" then they'd have issues seeing as they'd need new seats to put all these tickets in! I've stuck by Houston from the beginning, and I will to the end. Drafting Mario was 100% the right football move at the time.
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Old 03-29-2007, 01:07 AM    (permalink
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Texans, Carolina, new Browns, Jags should not be discussed... that is like saying Rockies are the worst MLB franchise... they have not been around long enough to make such claims....
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Old 03-29-2007, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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allright you take the Ravens out of there...but you still have those..what 10 teams who have eitehr done it less times than the Bills or not even at all. Buffalo should not even be considered as a worst franchise.
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Old 03-30-2007, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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I'm gonna have to say the Detroit Lions without question. 1 playoff win in almost 60 years is awful and that's just the start of their problems. Matt Milen doesn't care about winning at all and it shows. They haven't been to the playoffs since 1992 and have routinely been the last place finisher in one of the NFL's 2nd tier divisions. Their drafting is horrendous, besides Roy Williams and Barry Sanders try and name a draft pick that has lived up to their pro potential. The worst franchise in the NFL is 100% the Detroit Lions.
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Old 03-30-2007, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Billingsley26 View Post
there is no way you can throw the Bills in there!
they have played in 4 superbowls..regardless of if they won one...lets go through the list of who hasnt even been to one!
1. Cleveland Browns
2. Detriot Lions
3. Arizona Cardinals
4. New Orleans Saints
5. Houtson Texans
6. Jacksonville Jaguars
7. San Diego Chargers

you could also throw in the

Baltimore Ravens
Tennesee Titans/Houston Oilers
Atlanta Falcons
Carolina Panthers


the above 7 have never even made it to ONE superbowl...therefor they are lower than the Bills.

The bottom 4 have only made it to ONE superbowl. Real impressive how you rank a team who made it to 4 SP in 4 years below all of these. They were a dynasty in the AFC in the early 90's. they are no where the worst fracnhise.
The Chargers have been to a Super Bowl.
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Old 03-30-2007, 08:24 PM    (permalink
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I'm gonna have to say the Detroit Lions without question. 1 playoff win in almost 60 years is awful and that's just the start of their problems. Matt Milen doesn't care about winning at all and it shows. They haven't been to the playoffs since 1992 and have routinely been the last place finisher in one of the NFL's 2nd tier divisions. Their drafting is horrendous, besides Roy Williams and Barry Sanders try and name a draft pick that has lived up to their pro potential. The worst franchise in the NFL is 100% the Detroit Lions.
I'm almost positive they have won way way way more than 1 playoff game in 60 years. I think the Cardinals have only won about 1, and the Saints too. I don't know where I would check, but didn't Detroit win championships in the 50's and 60's?
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Old 03-30-2007, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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This is something I wanted to give my input on. Its ironic to me, that everyone proclaims Michael Vick as overrated, over hyped. Yet, these are the same people who are anointing Vince Young. Quite frankly; those people are short-sighted.

There is nothing Vince Young did last year, that equaled Michael Vick's '02 season. Michael Vick outclassed Young, as a passer, runner, he led a mediocre team to the playoffs, and a road playoff win, he willed his team to victories that year. However, because he hasn't evolved since then, people conveniently forget about that. Vick didn't progress, for a multitude of reasons, which have been well noted. Thus far, there is no indication that Vince Young will become a elite passer, and runner, at the same time. Actually; it may even be presumptuous to assume he ever matches Michael Vick's '02 season, or even Randall Cunningham in his prime, dominance.



It's amazing that no one recognizes the horrible scheme fit, Reggie Bush was. Even prior to the draft, rumors were the Texans weren't interested in Bush, word from Bush's camp was that the Texans didn't intend on taking him. Yet, everyone was a gasped as to how that could be. If you compare Bush's rushing production to any rookie RB, he was horrible. Even Wali Lundy, Leon Washington, day-2 players, were more productive on the ground. Reggie Bush should be thankful New Orleans took him, otherwise, he would have looked like a bust in Houston. It was never a good fit, which is why they didn't take him. Why people cannot grasp that basic concept, is bewildering to me.



The Texans had one of the most acclaimed drafts last year, yet all anyone can think about is that first pick. To go along with your points, before his plantar fasciitis, he was out-performing his fellow draftees. Those who are vocal against the Texans' draft decision last year, assume Bush will improve as a runner, Young as a passer. Yet, they are hypocritical, because they assume Mario Williams, a 21-year old, won't improve his technique, and pass rush repertoire. Best case:
  • Reggie Bush becomes Brian Westbrook, except more durable.
  • Vince Young becomes Randall Cunningham.
  • Mario Williams can be Julius Peppers, only bigger, stronger.

Just want to put my two cents into this debate, since nobody had a reasonable retort (and I think you are an intelligent poster with salient points, and I enjoy the debate)

First, I think the rumors that Houston wasn't interested in Bush were just that: rumors. Houston was in serious negociations with the Bush camp up until the the Thursday before last year's draft. The Texans had made a few contract offers to Bush, which to me indicates their interest.

What I think it comes down to is two guys, Charley Casserly and Gary Kubiak falling in love with Mario Williams' talent and potential. Other teams also had Williams #1 on their draft boards, so this wasn't an opinion out of left field, a minority opinion perhaps but everyone knew how talented Mario Williams was. There was however mixed feelings in the Texans organization as 7 out of 10 of Houston's scouts preferred Bush to Williams.

What I will say, is that Casserly and Kubiak don't have much credibillity in the football world in my opinion. Casserly was out of a job only a few weeks after the selection. When he was Redskins GM, he inherited a championship caliber team that declined and ultimately bottomed out, mainly from his draft desisions (look them up - Washington was a terrible drafting team throughout the 90's). The jury is still out on Kubiak as a coach, and I'm personally skeptical of him for a few reasons. First of all, for a coach of Mike Shanahan's caliber, he doesn't have any kind of a coaching tree at all. He is such a control freak that I don't think his assistants, especially his offensive assistants, are anything but glorified yes-men, which explains why it took so long for Kubiak to get a head coaching job even after winning two Super Bowls. Kubiak doesn't appear to be a decisive man, another example: reccomending the Texans pick up David Carr's 8 million dollar option in 06 only to give up a boatload of draft picks for Matt Schaub and sign him to a lucrative deal.

Also as far as the scheme fit argument. While I agree Bush's habit of dancing in the backfield isn't what the zone blocking scheme requires, there is some question of consistency in Houston's 06 draft as far as being perfect scheme fits for the offense. Namely, the offensive lineman they drafted. Charles Spencer was not someone looked at as a good fit for the zone blocking scheme either at 350 pounds. Eric Winston was a guy who you couldn't really say fits this or that particular scheme, but if the team was comitted to drafting for scheme, why did they pass on Daryn Colledge, who was an ideal fit and is now starting in Green Bay's zone? My thought is they were just players Casserly/Kubiak liked, just as Mario Williams was a player they liked. I don't feel that the scheme was a huge concern, they probably assumed that Bush could be taught to not make more than one cut through the line of scrimmage. I believe it was more of a case of them preferring to address their defense, assuming Domanick Davis would be healthy, and falling in love with Williams.

Here is an article from last year that really goes into detail regarding Houston's thought process in the draft:

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn...4dce26935a4dcf

And yes, I'd have to say Houston is the worst run franchise in the NFL.
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Old 03-30-2007, 10:03 PM    (permalink
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1. Houston
2. Cleveland
3. Detroit
4. Arizona
5. New Orleans

Nothing against those teams
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Old 03-30-2007, 10:16 PM    (permalink
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Is this topic regarding all time worst or just right now? If its all time then there is now way that the Browns are even remotely on ANY list. Without the Browns there is no merger.
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Old 03-30-2007, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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Texans

i don't know any team that has made so many dumb moves in such a short period of time


btw the cards have 2 NFL championships, they may have been before the merger but at least thats something
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