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Old 10-26-2011, 04:15 PM    (permalink
bearsfan_51
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*scratches head*

Can anyone else give this a shot?

Look. When you're talking about profit margins, you're talking about how much money an athletic department has AFTER they put it into their department. So, again, let's say Louisville made 50 million last year, and spent 48 million on their program.

If I'm a commissioner, I don't care about that extra 2 million dollars, because, as you said, it doesn't go to the conference, it stays with the school.

I care about that first number. I care how much money an athletic department makes before expenses. Period. If a program makes 100 million dollars, even if they spend 105 million dollars (and most AD's spend more than they take in), that means that program is worth a lot. And I want that valuable commodity as part of my conference.

Think about the pros. Ohio State is the New York Yankees of college athletics. They spend a TON of money, but they also make a TON of money. There might be minor league teams (Louisville) that spend their money more wisely, but they still make a ton less money, so they are far less desireable products.
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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The Big 12 could add Louisville, becuase their options are:

1) Nobody
2) Louisville
3) Boise State

So...yeah, Louisville is probably more valuable than Boise State (although I'd argue less valuable than nobody). That doesn't make them anything even remotely close to what you're saying they are. It makes the Big 12 desperate because four teams have abandoned ship for greener pastures.

But even if you take that invitation as a sign of something, remember that you were passed over for West Virginia, TCU, and BYU first.
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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Haha, just remember that you are the one who was a total douche and started this whole thing.
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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I agree with you. If Ohio State makes $100 million a year, they can spend it on better facilities, keeping their stadium top notch, get better coaches because they can pay them more, spend more on recruiting, thus getting better players, spend more money on advertising. I'd take better players, coaches, and facilities over Louisville's better profit margin.

To compare it to actual companies. My brother-in-law runs a shirt making company. His profit is about twice as much as his expenses right now. Compare that to oil companies, who have the lowest profit margins of all companies. But if you wanted to merge with a company, are you going with the shirt making business with a fantastic profit margin or a multi-billion dollar company with about a 6% profit margin?
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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Except that Louisville has some of the best facilities and stadiums in the country.....
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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Except that Louisville has some of the best facilities and stadiums in the country.....
They do?

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Old 10-26-2011, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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Yes, they do...
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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Except that Louisville has some of the best facilities and stadiums in the country.....
I don't know about Louisville's facilities. But there are six stadiums with over 100,000 capacity. Louisville is 49th in capacity. Only Kansas and Baylor are smaller in the Big XII. I know size isn't the end-all-be-all when judging football stadiums (Legion Field for example is larger but that is the worst stadium in the world). But Louisville's field is nowhere near the level of Ohio State. Tennessee, Texas, and Oklahoma.
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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I was talking about all of athletics, not football. Our football stadium is very nice, but not very large. I think with the expansion it holds around 55,000
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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I was talking about all of athletics, not football. Our football stadium is very nice, but not very large. I think with the expansion it holds around 55,000
This is all about football. That is the big money maker. The only thing that matter is the football facilities.
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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This whole thing started when i said that I hope that the big 12 takes Louisville, which it looks like they are. I said that our football is a notch below WV but our other athletics are far far better than theirs. I made a statement that our football is back on its way to relevance. Then all of this started. I am not arguing that we are an elite program and belong in the SEC. We belong in the big 12.
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Old 10-27-2011, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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For facilities this is how Louisville would rank:

Papa John's Stadium is the 2nd newest stadium in Division 1 and seats 57,000.
That seating capacity is good for 5th in the Big 12.

The KFC Yum! Center for basketball is one of the biggest FBS facilities in the country and seats over 22,000. It would be the largest in the Big 12 by close to 6,000 seats.

Louisville basketball is the 21st most profitable program (football and basketball) in the country. Their football program is the 90th most profitable in the country.
http://businessofcollegesports.com/2...rgest-profits/

This article explains how Louisville athletics are a winner financially
http://businessofcollegesports.com/2...r-financially/

However, in the grand scheme, is Louisville a football power or even a contender? No. Can they compete on occasion? Yes. Would they be an asset to the Big 12? Yes, considering the Big 12's options.

Louisville's basketball program is their bread and butter. West Virginia, however, is the best option for a football addition due to the amount of top 25 finishes the school has had and BCS appearances. For academics, both are a wash as they are ranked the same according to US News.

If it were up to me I would add both. The Big Ten was able to stay at 11 teams for almost two decades and stopping at 11 would satisfy both sides that want 10 teams and 12 teams.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:34 AM    (permalink
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Papa John's Stadium is the 2nd newest Division I stadium? Nope! North Texas, UCF, FAU, SMU, Pittsburgh, Temple, USF (by 15 days), Connecticut, Utah (by 7 days), Akron, and Minnesota all have newer stadiums. That puts Louisville at 12th. Take out the stadiums that are shared by NFL teams and Louisville is 9th. Nice try though.

Papa John's Stadium would be the 5th biggest in the Big XII? Nope! Texas has 101,000, Nebraska has 86,000, Texas A&M and Oklahoma have 82,000, Missouri has 71,000, Texas Tech and Oklahoma State have 60,000. That would put Louisville 8th. Take out Texas A&M who is moving to the SEC and that makes them 7th. Another swing and a miss.
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Old 10-27-2011, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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Papa John's Stadium is the 2nd newest Division I stadium? Nope! North Texas, UCF, FAU, SMU, Pittsburgh, Temple, USF (by 15 days), Connecticut, Utah (by 7 days), Akron, and Minnesota all have newer stadiums. That puts Louisville at 12th. Take out the stadiums that are shared by NFL teams and Louisville is 9th. Nice try though.

Papa John's Stadium would be the 5th biggest in the Big XII? Nope! Texas has 101,000, Nebraska has 86,000, Texas A&M and Oklahoma have 82,000, Missouri has 71,000, Texas Tech and Oklahoma State have 60,000. That would put Louisville 8th. Take out Texas A&M who is moving to the SEC and that makes them 7th. Another swing and a miss.
According to when they were built, Papa John's Stadium is 9th. I was wrong on that. But you can't include Heinz Field, Raymond James, and Lincoln Financial Field. Those three were built for NFL teams and just so happen to have college teams play there.

SMU, Akron, Utah, UConn, UCF, Minnesota, FAU, & North Texas but still being one of the newest and most modern is a positive for Louisville.

Take out Nebraska since, you know, they're in the Big Ten. Take out Texas A&M since their going to the SEC and Missouri since it's all but announced that their going to the SEC.

That makes them 5th. Nice try though.
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:05 AM    (permalink
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Take out Nebraska since, you know, they're in the Big Ten. Take out Texas A&M since their going to the SEC and Missouri since it's all but announced that their going to the SEC.
Take them out why?

You keep operating under the assumption that everyone has to get to 12+ teams. They don't. What the Big 12 needs to decide is not only if Louisville a better option relative to West Virginia, Boise State, South Florida, etc., but also if they are a better option relative to doing nothing at all. If you add Louisville, are they in the bottom 1/3 of your league in terms of generated revenue? If they are, you don't do it. That's why the Big Ten didn't add Missouri even though they were actively asking for them to do so. It's the same reason they aren't adding Connecticut and Rutgers. You don't add programs that are worse than your median program.

Now, that being said, maybe you do in the Big 12 because you aren't sharing money anyway. :)
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:06 AM    (permalink
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Also, can we all please agree to never refer to the Louisville basketball arena as the KFC Yum! Center ever again? I draw the line at that and any bowl named after a website.
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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Take them out why?

You keep operating under the assumption that everyone has to get to 12+ teams. They don't. What the Big 12 needs to decide is not only if Louisville a better option relative to West Virginia, Boise State, South Florida, etc., but also if they are a better option relative to doing nothing at all. If you add Louisville, are they in the bottom 1/3 of your league in terms of generated revenue? If they are, you don't do it. That's why the Big Ten didn't add Missouri even though they were actively asking for them to do so. It's the same reason they aren't adding Connecticut and Rutgers. You don't add programs that are worse than your median program.

Now, that being said, maybe you do in the Big 12 because you aren't sharing money anyway. :)
I was discussing rank according to stadium size. That's why I said take out Nebraska since they are already in the Big Ten and take out Texas A&M & Missouri since one will be in the SEC next year and all indications point towards Mizzou leaving.

So with those three schools not being in the Big 12 anymore the point is moot to include them in a list ranking Big 12 football stadiums according to size.

I personally don't care for the fact that conferences are expanding past 12 teams. I think 12 is the perfect number because Team "X" would play the majority of teams in the conference while setting up a conference championship game which, in essence, earns additional money for the conference.

As far as adding Louisville is concerned, I think the Big 12 should add them and West Virginia and sit at 11 teams for the time being. Reason why is what both offer. Louisville offers the most lucrative college basketball program in the country while West Virginia offers top 25 football and basketball competition which is a revenue generator.

There were a litany of reasons behind the Big Ten adding Nebraska than Missouri with added revenue being one of them. It fit the conference landscape, added a powerhouse program, increased the prestige of the league, maintained academic standards, increased the marketability of football match-ups with Nebraska playing in the same division as Michigan. It was a home run for the Big Ten.

I don't buy the belief that a city where a program is located guarantees the tv market. Like the St. Louis & Kansas City markets for example. If Missouri is playing will the people watch in those cities? Probably. But will they also watch say Nebraska vs. Ohio State or LSU vs. Alabama? In a sample of one, I watched Nebraska vs. Ohio State and Wisconsin vs. Nebraska when both were played.
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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There were a litany of reasons behind the Big Ten adding Nebraska than Missouri with added revenue being one of them. It fit the conference landscape, added a powerhouse program, increased the prestige of the league, maintained academic standards, increased the marketability of football match-ups with Nebraska playing in the same division as Michigan. It was a home run for the Big Ten.

I don't buy the belief that a city where a program is located guarantees the tv market. Like the St. Louis & Kansas City markets for example. If Missouri is playing will the people watch in those cities? Probably. But will they also watch say Nebraska vs. Ohio State or LSU vs. Alabama? In a sample of one, I watched Nebraska vs. Ohio State and Wisconsin vs. Nebraska when both were played.
I agree with you on the latter point. You're right that geography isn't everything. I live closer to Northern Illinois than USC, but I'm much more likely to want to watch USC on television, all other things being equal.
That's why Nebraska made more sense than Missouri.

But you're kidding yourself if you think this is about much more than money.

-Missouri makes more geographic sense than Nebraska.
-Its academic profile is better. (although its arguable depending on the metrics)
-All of the other things you mentioned still have to do with revenue.

Nebraska has a larger following ($), it has more prestige ($), it creates better TV matchups ($).
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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According to when they were built, Papa John's Stadium is 9th. I was wrong on that. But you can't include Heinz Field, Raymond James, and Lincoln Financial Field. Those three were built for NFL teams and just so happen to have college teams play there.

SMU, Akron, Utah, UConn, UCF, Minnesota, FAU, & North Texas but still being one of the newest and most modern is a positive for Louisville.

Take out Nebraska since, you know, they're in the Big Ten. Take out Texas A&M since their going to the SEC and Missouri since it's all but announced that their going to the SEC.

That makes them 5th. Nice try though.
Yeah, I forgot that Nebraska left for the Big 10. And I can see why you would exclude Texas A&M because they will be gone next year. But you can't exclude Missouri because it is not official that they have left. A lot of teams have all but announced they are going somewhere. Yet they are still in the same conference. Nothing can be assumed until they officially announce it.

From the date they were opened, Louisville's stadium is the 12th youngest. And both USF's and Utah's broke ground later as well, so I don't know where you get that it is 9th. You also can't really exclude USF, Temple, and Pittsburgh. They are Division I stadiums. All three teams have played there since the day they opened.

The thing is, Louisville will never be able to build a huge 90K seat stadium. I would much rather have decent huge stadiums in my conference than great medium sized stadiums.
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, I forgot that Nebraska left for the Big 10. And I can see why you would exclude Texas A&M because they will be gone next year. But you can't exclude Missouri because it is not official that they have left. A lot of teams have all but announced they are going somewhere. Yet they are still in the same conference. Nothing can be assumed until they officially announce it.

From the date they were opened, Louisville's stadium is the 12th youngest. And both USF's and Utah's broke ground later as well, so I don't know where you get that it is 9th. You also can't really exclude USF, Temple, and Pittsburgh. They are Division I stadiums. All three teams have played there since the day they opened.

The thing is, Louisville will never be able to build a huge 90K seat stadium. I would much rather have decent huge stadiums in my conference than great medium sized stadiums.
USF, Temple, and Pittsburgh are NFL stadiums that Division 1 teams play in. You can't say that Raymond James, Lincoln Financial, and Heinz were specifically built with those three universities in mind. They were built for the NFL teams and those three universities piggy-backed onto them.

And all signs are pointing towards Mizzou leaving, which is why I left them off the list. If they stay in the Big 12 I'll eat crow but I don't see that happening.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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Is Teddy Greenstein known to be a mouth for the Big Ten?
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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It's looking more and more that Louisville and WVU will BOTH be added to the Big 12 and that they will stay at 11 teams until tier 1 rights deal is up in 2015
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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It's looking more and more that Louisville and WVU will BOTH be added to the Big 12 and that they will stay at 11 teams until tier 1 rights deal is up in 2015
Why no Cincinnati? The Big12 needs to add the rinky dink superfecta.
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:50 PM    (permalink
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Why no Cincinnati? The Big12 needs to add the rinky dink superfecta.
Actually, it seems that the Big 12 will go to 12 with Cincy.
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