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Old 11-22-2011, 02:55 PM    (permalink
Xiomera
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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
Exactly this. This isn't the NBA, where LeBron is absolutely the best player but wouldn't win MVP because he doesn't add that many wins to the Heat.
How come players from losing teams don't win MVP more than once a decade? Braun just beat Kemp despite having worse stats across the board ...
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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I still contend that nothing is more valuable to a team than having the best individual season in a given year.
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Xiomera View Post
How come players from losing teams don't win MVP more than once a decade? Braun just beat Kemp despite having worse stats across the board ...
Just because the BBWAA makes stupid decisions doesn't justify them. And that is the case because most of the time, the best player comes from a winning team unless it's Barry Bonds.
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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Just because the BBWAA makes stupid decisions doesn't justify them. And that is the case because most of the time, the best player comes from a winning team unless it's Barry Bonds.
Just because you decide to ignore the actual circumstances of a player's performance and look only at stats doesn't justify your line of thinking either.

Bautista's stats are not enough to make up ground for the fact that they came in garbage time.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Xiomera View Post
Just because you decide to ignore the actual circumstances of a player's performance and look only at stats doesn't justify your line of thinking either.

Bautista's stats are not enough to make up ground for the fact that they came in garbage time.
Please explain to me how having a worse season than another player can make a player more valuable under any circumstance.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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Please explain to me how having a worse season than another player can make a player more valuable under any circumstance.
I'm not going to argue with you over the meaning of the word "value," especially when most people take it to mean "value among players whose statistics weren't completely meaningless because of their team's irrelevance in the playoff race."

They have separate awards for assessing pure statistical efforts.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Xiomera View Post
Just because you decide to ignore the actual circumstances of a player's performance and look only at stats doesn't justify your line of thinking either.

Bautista's stats are not enough to make up ground for the fact that they came in garbage time.
He didn't get them in garbage time.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Xiomera View Post
I'm not going to argue with you over the meaning of the word "value," especially when most people take it to mean "value among players whose statistics weren't completely meaningless because of their team's irrelevance in the playoff race."

They have separate awards for assessing pure statistical efforts.
Do you think Bautista's numbers would have been different had he played for the Tigers? You could argue they'd be better because he wouldn't have to face the Yanks/sox/rays 50+ times.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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I'm not going to argue with you over the meaning of the word "value," especially when most people take it to mean "value among players whose statistics weren't completely meaningless because of their team's irrelevance in the playoff race."

They have separate awards for assessing pure statistical efforts.
This is baseball, baseball is statistics. That's all there is to it outside of defense, it is all statistics. Trying to put down statistics isn't going to work in baseball.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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He didn't get them in garbage time.
What was the last date of the season anyone so much as thought the Blue Jays could make the playoffs? I'm pretty sure it was 2006!
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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Do you think Bautista's numbers would have been different had he played for the Tigers? You could argue they'd be better because he wouldn't have to face the Yanks/sox/rays 50+ times.
OHHHH, the terrifying Red Sox pitching staff!!!!!!!!

Flip Cabrera for Bautista and it makes no tangible difference to anything.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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OHHHH, the terrifying Red Sox pitching staff!!!!!!!!

Flip Cabrera for Bautista and it makes no tangible difference to anything.
Yes it does. It would automatically make Bautista a contender for MVP in your mind. And it would make Cabrera non MVP candidate because he plays on a terrible team.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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This is baseball, baseball is statistics. That's all there is to it outside of defense, it is all statistics. Trying to put down statistics isn't going to work in baseball.
Ask fans what they want. Winning or statistics.

Ask players what they want. Meaningless awards or World Series titles.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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OHHHH, the terrifying Red Sox pitching staff!!!!!!!!

Flip Cabrera for Bautista and it makes no tangible difference to anything.
The Blue Jays have no right fielder and create a major hole, so yes it would make a pretty big difference. Let me put it this way again, value added comes from statistics. There is no tangible locker room ******** or single guy pushing a guy to the playoffs, this is baseball.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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Ask fans what they want. Winning or statistics.

Ask players what they want. Meaningless awards or World Series titles.
Yeah because common fans are so smart when it comes to baseball. And that second part doesn't matter at all, we're arguing who is deserving of the MVP and it's Bautista, regardless of the record of the team he was on.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Ask fans what they want. Winning or statistics.

Ask players what they want. Meaningless awards or World Series titles.
Obviously winning. But they go hand in hand in most cases. It's not Jose's fault the other 24 players on his team don't put up any statistics. If the almighty Verlander was put on the Blue Jays, they still don't make the playoffs. And I guess he isn't MVP than either.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Ask fans what they want. Winning or statistics.

Ask players what they want. Meaningless awards or World Series titles.
Ask teams what they want. The best player over the course of a season or a player that played worse.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Yes it does. It would automatically make Bautista a contender for MVP in your mind. And it would make Cabrera non MVP candidate because he plays on a terrible team.
I ******* THINK BAUTISTA IS A CANDIDATE NOW. He'd have been #3 on my ballot, but that was never what we were discussing. Verlander is the god damn ******* MOST VALUABLE ******* PLAYER because he has the best combination of being statistically dominant and having those statistics actually MEAN something.

This isn't about team allegiances. Bautista ranks higher on my list than Cabrera. It's nice of you to try and paint my argument as a case of homerism. That's very convenient to discredit me, but also ******* dumb.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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We can end this debate now. There is no convincing anyone if we categorically disagree on the process of determining value.

I think it's stats + context + winning. If you disagree, then you disagree.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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I ******* THINK BAUTISTA IS A CANDIDATE NOW. He'd have been #3 on my ballot, but that was never what we were discussing. Verlander is the god damn ******* MOST VALUABLE ******* PLAYER because he has the best combination of being statistically dominant and having those statistics actually MEAN something.

This isn't about team allegiances. Bautista ranks higher on my list than Cabrera. It's nice of you to try and paint my argument as a case of homerism. That's very convenient to discredit me, but also ******* dumb.
I didn't discredit you because of homerism. I'm just saying it shouldn't matter if your team made the playoffs or not. But in your mind that matters. I used Cabrera as an example because of the similar production to Bautista except he's also on a playoff team.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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It's all about value added, just ask businesses. And again, I'm alright with Verlander and Braun winning because they were both the second best candidates. It's not like Justin Morneau in 2006, which was ******* awful.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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It's all about value added, just ask businesses. And again, I'm alright with Verlander and Braun winning because they were both the second best candidates. It's not like Justin Morneau in 2006, which was ******* awful.
In that case, why shouldn't we factor in salary and bang for the buck?
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiomera View Post
In that case, why shouldn't we factor in salary and bang for the buck?
I didn't mean in the purest sense. Otherwise Evan Longoria would win every year.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=15563

Funny article about Juan Gonzalez and the HOF. Read it.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Kemp got robbed, Braun shouldn't have gotten a single 1st place vote
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