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Old 11-09-2011, 08:23 PM    (permalink
rawdawg
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Originally Posted by jbooshey View Post
So because Urlacher, Willis and Lewis don't play college football...Montee Ball can't prove himself? How in the world do scouts project any college player to play in the pro game? I have no doubt in my mind that Ball in a game situation could make any player miss a tackle. Inferior backs at the pro level do it...it isn't Ball's fault he isn't in the pros yet. He has done everything he can at his current level and that includes staying healthy.
Yeah, you kinda missed the point.

the fact is guys who run through tackles don't last as long as guys who makes tacklers miss. And guys who are 5'10", 215lbs like Ball definitely don't last that long running in that style.
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Old 11-10-2011, 07:31 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, you kinda missed the point.

the fact is guys who run through tackles don't last as long as guys who makes tacklers miss. And guys who are 5'10", 215lbs like Ball definitely don't last that long running in that style.
You made more than one point...I touched on one of them and proved you wrong...now you are reaching on your other point. Guys like Ball have lasted in the league and guys like Ball have not. It is the RB position in general where a lot of careers end early and quickly regardless of running style.
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Old 11-10-2011, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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Montee Ball = quality backup.

Comparison: Brandon Jackson maybe? Thomas Jones?

I'd start looking at him in the 4th or 5th round. He's kind of a low upside, safe pick. If you have a good line and you want someone that can read and follow blocks, he's a perfect fit. That doesn't make him real desirable, but there are a lot of RBs that can't do that, especially fresh out of college.

I do like him more than any Wisky RB prospect in several years. I think he'll be around for 5-8 years probably as a 2 or a 3. Comparing him to past Wisky RBs isn't fair though because pretty much every RB prospect they've had has been a 260 lb workhorse that they pounded in college and wasn't built for the NFL at all. Ball is listed at 5'11" 215, pretty close to ideal size for the NFL now.

It's just hard for me to get excited about him in the NFL because for a starter I look for more dominance in college (he's more reliable than dominant) and as a part time back I want him to do one thing really well (speed, catching, power, etc.). He's more of an all around solid back. He probably profiles as a backup starter (he doesn't really get carries but if the #1 is hurt/injured he gets the lion's share) and possibly a 3rd down blocker that can run some draws occasionally.
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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Montee Ball = quality backup.

Comparison: Brandon Jackson maybe? Thomas Jones?

I'd start looking at him in the 4th or 5th round. He's kind of a low upside, safe pick. If you have a good line and you want someone that can read and follow blocks, he's a perfect fit. That doesn't make him real desirable, but there are a lot of RBs that can't do that, especially fresh out of college.

I do like him more than any Wisky RB prospect in several years. I think he'll be around for 5-8 years probably as a 2 or a 3. Comparing him to past Wisky RBs isn't fair though because pretty much every RB prospect they've had has been a 260 lb workhorse that they pounded in college and wasn't built for the NFL at all. Ball is listed at 5'11" 215, pretty close to ideal size for the NFL now.

It's just hard for me to get excited about him in the NFL because for a starter I look for more dominance in college (he's more reliable than dominant) and as a part time back I want him to do one thing really well (speed, catching, power, etc.). He's more of an all around solid back. He probably profiles as a backup starter (he doesn't really get carries but if the #1 is hurt/injured he gets the lion's share) and possibly a 3rd down blocker that can run some draws occasionally.

There are so many things, I find difficult to agree with in your post. The first being a comparison of Ball to Brandon Jackson...Brandon Jackson has been in the league for many years and still is looking to break his first tackle. Ball will break a tackle in game one...probably carry one of his NFL career.

The second thing is calling Thomas Jones a quality backup...if Ball could have Jones' career I bet he'd take it without hesitation. Jones had 5 straight 1000 yd seasons and missed a 6th by 52 yards. Jones has been way more than a "quality backup" in his career.

Third...yes there are a lot of running backs who can follow blocks...if that is all you see in Ball, then you just aren't watching Ball with your eyes open.

Fourth...260lbs workhorse??? Brent Moss, Terrell Fletcher, Aaron Stecker, Anthony Davis, Brian Calhoun...none fit this category. Ron Dayne...yes...John Clay...yes...PJ Hill...not really, but close enough....not even close to "every RB prospect" though.

Fifth...more reliable than dominant????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Ball had 18 Tds as a back who was a third stringer for the 1st half of last season. This season he is on pace to break the Big 10 record for Tds in a single season. He is on pace for 1500yds this season. He is averaging 6.6ypc. He is averaging 17.6 yards per catch!!!! He is DOMINATING so far and if that is only reliable to you than your standards are out of control.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but it is just that I disagree essentially with your entire post. I'm just so surprised because you have a Montee Ball picture or avatar or whatever it is called.
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Old 11-12-2011, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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Montee Ball set the all time single season Big Ten record for TDs in a season with his 27th score...that is something special
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Old 11-12-2011, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Because name the last successful back in the NFL from Wisconsin.


Who Michael Bennett? Hardly, guys like Anthony Davis, Brian Calhoun, Ron Dayne, John Clay all have not had success at the next level, and few Wisconsin backs if any have had success. Thus clearly, most of it has to do with the offensive line they run behind, not so much them as a runner.
this is seriously the dumbest argument. Evaluate the player, not stupid college circumstances that really don't matter at all.

Aaron Rodgers was clearly not gonna be a good NFL QB because his college coach was Tedford and the previous ones all didn't pan out. Oh wait....
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Old 11-13-2011, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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Montee Ball set the all time single season Big Ten record for TDs in a season with his 27th score...that is something special
If UW plays in the conference championship and then add on the bowl game...Ball is going to be challenging Barry Sanders' all-time single season rushing TD record.
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Old 11-27-2011, 02:24 AM    (permalink
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If UW plays in the conference championship and then add on the bowl game...Ball is going to be challenging Barry Sanders' all-time single season rushing TD record.
Bumping this thread.

Ball has 34 TDs, and is only 5 shy of Barry's record. Sanders set the mark in only 11 games; but still, that's a record that I didn't think I would ever see get broken. Ball already broke Ki-Jana Carter's Big-10 record, and Carter was a #1 overall pick.

I have some concerns about Ball as an NFL prospect, but he's having a heck of a season for Wisconsin.

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Old 11-27-2011, 08:09 AM    (permalink
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When I look at Montee Ball I just don't really know what player I'm seeing.
Physically standing still, since he's lost 35# Ball looks like Matt Forte/Evan Royster.

But as a pro prospect IMO he's closer to Royster than Forte; decent RB who lacks burst or outstanding lateral quickness.

I think Montee Ball has maxed out his athletic ability because even at a significantly reduced weight his athleticism looks only average for the position.

Let's not kid ourselves, Wisconsin's Oline is the gem of that program. Those big uglies get more blocking done at the second level of a defense than almost any Oline in the country. That's why the Badgers can recruit almost any good to decent HS RB and make him look like an AA in college.

Ball just has a lot to prove to me at the next level and unless he does something freakish( for him) at the combine, IMO Bell is just a mid round pick at best.

John Clay and PJ Hill looked like beasts in college. I don't see Montee Ball doing anything much different than either one of them did, unfortunately.

BTW, if Lamar Miller is only .12 seconds faster than Ball, Montee has sub 4.5 speed.
I don't think Ball is that fast.
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Old 11-27-2011, 08:49 AM    (permalink
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When I look at Montee Ball I just don't really know what player I'm seeing.
Physically standing still, since he's lost 35# Ball looks like Matt Forte/Evan Royster.

But as a pro prospect IMO he's closer to Royster than Forte; decent RB who lacks burst or outstanding lateral quickness.

I think Montee Ball has maxed out his athletic ability because even at a significantly reduced weight his athleticism looks only average for the position.

Let's not kid ourselves, Wisconsin's Oline is the gem of that program. Those big uglies get more blocking done at the second level of a defense than almost any Oline in the country. That's why the Badgers can recruit almost any good to decent HS RB and make him look like an AA in college.

Ball just has a lot to prove to me at the next level and unless he does something freakish( for him) at the combine, IMO Bell is just a mid round pick at best.

John Clay and PJ Hill looked like beasts in college. I don't see Montee Ball doing anything much different than either one of them did, unfortunately.

BTW, if Lamar Miller is only .12 seconds faster than Ball, Montee has sub 4.5 speed.
I don't think Ball is that fast.

Sigh...again...so much wrong in this post.

First of all...he didn't lose #35...not sure where you got that from. He lost somewhere around 20lbs and it has done wonders for him.

Lacks burst and lateral quickness????!?!?!! Did you watch yesterday's game at all? His burst and lateral quickness were present and obvious even to blind people.

You are right about the o-line...however Montee Ball set TD records for the state of Missouri in high school...I think he had 44 as a senior or somewhere there about...he definitely wasn't "a decent HS RB" and that is why he is having the best season of any Big 10 running back ever.

Ball may be a mid round pick, but I guarantee you he would outplay that draft spot.

John Clay and PJ Hill didn't look as good as Ball does this season at any point in their careers. And this is coming from a guy who was as big a Clay backer as there was...until it become too obvious how lazy he was anyways.

Ball is going to surprise so many people on this forum it is crazy...he is having the most underrated and under appreciated season of any football player that I have seen.
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:18 AM    (permalink
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Bumping this thread.

Ball has 34 TDs, and is only 5 shy of Barry's record. Sanders set the mark in only 11 games; but still, that's a record that I didn't think I would ever see get broken. Ball already broke Ki-Jana Carter's Big-10 record, and Carter was a #1 overall pick.

I have some concerns about Ball as an NFL prospect, but he's having a heck of a season for Wisconsin.
And Carter was a Gigantic bust

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Old 11-27-2011, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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I like Montee Ball. He actually reminds me a lot of Mark Ingram, just an average athlete for the position, but does a lot of underrated things. He has good vision, keeps his feet moving on contact, is better at blocking than most collegiate running backs, and is a competent receiver out of the backfield. He certainly benefits from running behind that Wisconsin offensive line, but he's really nothing like PJ Hill or Ron Dayne. He has enough of a burst that he'll be able to cutback and pick up the extra 15 yards that good running backs can get behind good blocking. He's not an elite enough athlete to break it on the regular like Charles or CJ2K do, but he's certainly in line with a good majority of NFL running backs in terms of athleticism.

I'd say he'll probably be in the late 2nd-early 4th round range when it's all said and done.
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:57 AM    (permalink
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Second round pick
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Old 11-27-2011, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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He runs behind the best offensive line in the country. My grandmother would have looked good running through those holes.
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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He runs behind the best offensive line in the country. My grandmother would have looked good running through those holes.
Care to explain why James White has not been the same back as last year, or even improved, if the Badgers line is so good? I'm not saying the unit isn't good because it clearly is, but don't dismiss Ball's abilities because of the line in front of him (which does have issues at times moreso the left side)
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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Both PJ Hill and John Clay ran for over 1500 yards and 15 + TDs their final seasons playing for Wisconsin.

WHat Montee Ball is doing besides his TD scores isn't off the charts for the Badgers program.
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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Both PJ Hill and John Clay ran for over 1500 yards and 15 + TDs their final seasons playing for Wisconsin.

WHat Montee Ball is doing besides his TD scores isn't off the charts for the Badgers program.
It's tempting to agree, but that's still a fairly significant "besides." The truth is that he's scoring at a higher rate, with a higher YPC than those guys.

If he impresses at the combine, I agree with others in thinking that he could go in round 2.

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Old 11-27-2011, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by HakeemtheMachine View Post
And Carter was a Gigantic bust
That's because he immediately blew out his knee at a time when that was still pretty much a career ending injury. Context.

I never compared the two as prospects, anyway. Carter was clearly a much better prospect.

Disclosure: I'm a Michigan fan, so I don't have a vested interest in either player or school.

Last edited by WCH : 11-27-2011 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:52 AM    (permalink
DraftSavant
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
When I look at Montee Ball I just don't really know what player I'm seeing.
Physically standing still, since he's lost 35# Ball looks like Matt Forte/Evan Royster.

But as a pro prospect IMO he's closer to Royster than Forte; decent RB who lacks burst or outstanding lateral quickness.

I think Montee Ball has maxed out his athletic ability because even at a significantly reduced weight his athleticism looks only average for the position.

Let's not kid ourselves, Wisconsin's Oline is the gem of that program. Those big uglies get more blocking done at the second level of a defense than almost any Oline in the country. That's why the Badgers can recruit almost any good to decent HS RB and make him look like an AA in college.

Ball just has a lot to prove to me at the next level and unless he does something freakish( for him) at the combine, IMO Bell is just a mid round pick at best.

John Clay and PJ Hill looked like beasts in college. I don't see Montee Ball doing anything much different than either one of them did, unfortunately.

BTW, if Lamar Miller is only .12 seconds faster than Ball, Montee has sub 4.5 speed.
I don't think Ball is that fast.
Yeah, Forte is one of the most athletic big backs in the entire league. His running style is eerily reminiscent of Fred Taylor's - big, athletic slashers who really screw with second and third level defenders' pursuit angles. I just don't see Ball ever having that kind of ability in the NFL.
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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Both PJ Hill and John Clay ran for over 1500 yards and 15 + TDs their final seasons playing for Wisconsin.

WHat Montee Ball is doing besides his TD scores isn't off the charts for the Badgers program.
Ball is a completely different player than those two. Hill and Clay were striclty north-south guys who beat you by wearing you down. Ball is more elusive and does a great job of finding the hole and picking yards up; he's also a receving threat out of the backfield too.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:02 AM    (permalink
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My cousin played with Montee in high school so i have seen a lot of him. Even back then, his offensive line was ridiculously stacked(2 all staters and a 5-star all american). I remember a game his senior year against st. charles west where Montee had 15ish carries and 250+ yards and 5 td's in the first half. He ripped off a 55 yard td on the first play of the second half and sat the rest of the game. He broke maybe 5 tackles during the game because of his blocking. Montee is a great talent in my opinion and i hope he has success at the next level, but his supporting cast has been nothing short of phenomenal to this point in his career. There isn't a team in the NFL that is anywhere close to as dominant up front as to what he's used to.

As great as his numbers are and how talented he appears to be, I think there could be a very large roadblock for him in the NFL. He has never been behind an O-line that doesn't dominant every single play. He was only a 3-star player in high school because despite having over 7,000 rushing yards and 90+ td's during his career, he was never touched because his O-line was making holes you could drive a tank through. In high school though his blocking was mediocre and he was a poor receiver out of the backfield. He obviously has made immense improvements there. With all of that said, unless he has a spectacular combine, I wouldn't use a pick on him before fourth round, simply because it's difficult to know how good he actually is without ever having to face a defense that his offensive line couldn't handle.
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Old 11-28-2011, 03:45 PM    (permalink
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It's tempting to agree, but that's still a fairly significant "besides." The truth is that he's scoring at a higher rate, with a higher YPC than those guys.

If he impresses at the combine, I agree with others in thinking that he could go in round 2.
Those guys didn't have a QB like Wilson throwing and running the ball to take the pressure off of Montee.
To be fair to Ball, his fate will be decided at the combine when he runs his 40 and does the other tests. We all need to see him away from that Wisconsin system to see how he performs when matched up against the other RB's in this year's draft. He could well surprise us all and be outstanding as we are only judging him now on how he plays in his team's system.
There is no use writing him off or claiming that he will be special based on his college season because when you play RB for Wisconsin, you are going to appear to be great whether you are or not.
I suspect he will disappoint his followers but I could be dead wrong, only the post season will tell.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:58 AM    (permalink
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shaun alexander lite?
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Old 11-29-2011, 07:36 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Both PJ Hill and John Clay ran for over 1500 yards and 15 + TDs their final seasons playing for Wisconsin.

WHat Montee Ball is doing besides his TD scores isn't off the charts for the Badgers program.
So if I take John Clay's best TD season (18) and PJ Hill's best TD season (15) and add them together (33)... and then take Montee's season IN PROGRESS WITH 2 GAMES TO GO and add his total TD amount (34)...then I project his pace to 40 TD's...and then I look at you as if you are a total nut job for not thinking Ball has done anything special in regards to backs like Clay and Hill.

Also...without looking it up...it is probably safe to assume that Ball has more receiving yards this year then Clay and Hill had in their combined seasons.

Also part II...Ball's TD pass this year won't count for some reason towards his TD total.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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So if I take John Clay's best TD season (18) and PJ Hill's best TD season (15) and add them together (33)... and then take Montee's season IN PROGRESS WITH 2 GAMES TO GO and add his total TD amount (34)...then I project his pace to 40 TD's...and then I look at you as if you are a total nut job for not thinking Ball has done anything special in regards to backs like Clay and Hill.

Also...without looking it up...it is probably safe to assume that Ball has more receiving yards this year then Clay and Hill had in their combined seasons.

Also part II...Ball's TD pass this year won't count for some reason towards his TD total.
With that said, let's take a look at last year. John Clay had 14 scores while pretty much sitting out half of the season. even while he was healthy, he still split carries with montee and james white. the two of them combined for 32 scores, for a grand total of 46 rushing touchdowns. Another thing to note, instead of splitting carries, montee has had an overwhelming amount of the bulk of the carries compared to Clay. I think it's safe to say that if they would have utilized John Clay last year like they are utilizing montee this year, barring Clay's injury of course, Clay's stats would be comparable to the numbers that montee is putting up this year, when he only had a 13 game season to do it in.
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