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Old 12-26-2011, 07:18 AM    (permalink
phlysac
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Originally Posted by binary View Post
Not only do we need a tall guy, we need a guy who can get separation. I don't know if it's been the case all season, but in the Seahawks game every time they panned out you could see that our receivers were getting nothing. That's why I'd prefer a guy like Bowe over Colston, explosiveness, change of direction. VD seems to only be effective on straight-line routes. It's a freakin' miracle Alex played as well as he did.
Agree, If Edwards doesn't return, the team needs a taller receiver. They also need a reliable threat that consistently gets open. If they can't get both in the same body, bonus.


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Old 12-26-2011, 07:34 AM    (permalink
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Not even. We have young players waiting in the wings at CB. Young pups like Cully and Brock make Rodgers expendable if he wants to break the bank. And you still have a vet like Spencer still under contract. Goldson, Reggie Smith, Madieu Williams, and CJ Spillman are all free agents. There is no one waiting in the wings behind them, making that position, i.e. Goldson, a priority. You dont franchise a 31 year old CB unless he is a elite player, which Rodgers isn't.
I'm not as confident in Tramaine Brock as you appear to be. He made a big play in weeks one and two, which is absolutely great, but he hasn't even seeen the field much since then. Guys like Madieu Williams were playing a bunch back then, too. If Brock was doing so well, I'd assume we'd be seeing more of him. Instead, Shawntae Spencer has been the #4 and C.J. Spillman tends to be the #5/slot safety.

I'm hopeful for Brock but he has zero passes defensed and zero tackles (limited ST ability) since week 2.
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:29 AM    (permalink
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I'm not as confident in Tramaine Brock as you appear to be. He made a big play in weeks one and two, which is absolutely great, but he hasn't even seeen the field much since then. Guys like Madieu Williams were playing a bunch back then, too. If Brock was doing so well, I'd assume we'd be seeing more of him. Instead, Shawntae Spencer has been the #4 and C.J. Spillman tends to be the #5/slot safety.

I'm hopeful for Brock but he has zero passes defensed and zero tackles (limited ST ability) since week 2.
Well he also broke his hand was out for like 4 games. It seems the way the defensive staff deals with injuries in the secondary is that they put you at the bottom of the depth chart, and you have to work your way back up. Brock was the nickelback opening day. Talent is there. His injury set him back, as it does most young players getting their first bit of significant reps. Not saying Brock is a future starter but I like him as the nickelback of the future. He's quick, fast, and is very physical for his size. He's a exclusive rights free agent and I suspect Fangio and Donatell want to bring him back and see if he can make that next leap in play. We're not in bad shape at CB at all. Im sure Baalke will look for upgrades as any good GM would, but a core of Brown, Spencer, Cully, and Brock is not too shabby a group to head into next year with. And with a actually off-season to get some coaching in, all should be even better heading into their second year in the system.

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Old 12-26-2011, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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Do you know how long we've been waiting for a CB to play at a Pro Bowl level here? Do you know how long we've had a crap secondary with crap or overrated CBs? wtf, now you are just going to let him go? Baalke has ALREADY tried to re-sign Rogers, it's obvious he's a priority.
Dont let the ints fool you, Rodgers is a good CB who fits the scheme. But he is a average cover cb. And he's about to be on the wrong side of 30 next off-season. Notice i said "if he wants to breaks the bank". Of course we want to bring him back.....he's done great in our scheme. But Baalke is probably not going to give him the contract he is looking for. This is Rodgers last chance at a payday. I just think someone will shove a 4 year deal with a crazy signing bonus in his face and he bolts.

But honestly, insteading of trying to sign Rodgers I would go after a young stud like Brandon Carr who fits this scheme like a glove. Tall, physical, good speed and is still young. Lock him up and watch him and Cully become bookends for the next couple of years.
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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Not only do we need a tall guy, we need a guy who can get separation. I don't know if it's been the case all season, but in the Seahawks game every time they panned out you could see that our receivers were getting nothing. That's why I'd prefer a guy like Bowe over Colston, explosiveness, change of direction. VD seems to only be effective on straight-line routes. It's a freakin' miracle Alex played as well as he did.
That's why Im in favor in taking a flyer on a guy like Schillens. 6'4, 224 lbs and runs 4.3. He is still raw and will need development but he has raw tools which to work from. And he actually has decent hands. He wont demand a huge contract and he's a guy you bring in early and work with him during the off-season to see if there's any potential there. And you can still go after a bigger name like Bowe or Meachem.
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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We have one in Josh Morgan. He's just hurt. That really isn't the problem though. Its' quarterback. You have a good quarterback and anyone will look good. Look no further than the Colts. Reggie Wayne is having a bad year due to bad quarterback play.

I'm not saying this just as an excuse to ***** about Alex Smith. I'm just saying that it won't matter who we get at receiver that much until the quarterback play gets better.
No, Morgan isn't small, but I want someone who is bigger than him, more like a Colston size. The QB play does impact how the weapons on the team are used to some degree, but I believe that if we had an even bigger redzone threat WR, it would pay dividends with some of our redzone troubles. I'm confident that even Alex (love him or hate him) could throw an effective jump ball in the endzone where the big WR gets it, or nobody gets it.
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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We would be crazy to let rogers walk. He's easily the best CB we've had since Eric Davis in 95. Saying Tramaine Brock makes him expendable is laughable. Brock is our fifth corner for a reason.
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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Rogers and the Niners both realize that he has the most value to them and the whole reason he came to the Niners was for a fresh start in a new city. He's not getting a 5 year deal somewhere in FA with his age, etc. He'll take his 2 year deal to stay in SF and continue to play where's he's had the best season of his career and is winning. If he doesn't get it, then bye!
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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I would pass on Colston. For the money he is going to command he is too much of an injury concern for me:
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Colston is no stranger to the grind, as he endured microfracture surgery on his left knee in 2009. He has now had three knee surgeries in the past 12 months.
I would rather go after Vincent Jackson. But I don't really see SF signing a big name free agent at WR. The 49ers offense is limited in the passing game and with the way SF shuffles it's WR personnel I don't see them investing heavily (in terms of money wise) into the position. As VAfy-ya suggested taking a flier on a guy like Schillens or settling for a 2nd tier WR like Manningham.
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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We would be crazy to let rogers walk. He's easily the best CB we've had since Eric Davis in 95. Saying Tramaine Brock makes him expendable is laughable. Brock is our fifth corner for a reason.
Reading comprehension lacking much? No where did I say Rodgers is expendable because of Brock. He is expendable because of Cully and Spencer. Fans fall in love with ints, yet don't see the big picture. You can't sign everbody. Some guys won't be back. My gut says Rodgers will be one of those because he's asking price will be too much. Only time will tell.
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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Rogers and the Niners both realize that he has the most value to them and the whole reason he came to the Niners was for a fresh start in a new city. He's not getting a 5 year deal somewhere in FA with his age, etc. He'll take his 2 year deal to stay in SF and continue to play where's he's had the best season of his career and is winning. If he doesn't get it, then bye!
Everything you said makes sense, EXCEPT Rodgers has already turn down a offer from the FO. That just tells me that he isnt willing to just take a measley 2 year deal. He wants Pro Bowl CB-type money and probably a 3-4 year deal. And I dont think Baalke will give it to him.

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Old 12-26-2011, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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Everything you said makes sense, EXCEPT Rodgers has already turn down a offer from the FO. That just tells me that he isnt willing to just take a measley 2 year deal. He wants Pro Bowl CB-type money and probably a 3-4 year deal. And I dont think Baalke will give it to him.
I wouldn't read into that much. SF made a low ball offer with the ability of having no outside competition setting the market. We also had Snyder, Grant, and Brooks turn down in house contract extensions as well.
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:23 AM    (permalink
VAfy-ya
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I would pass on Colston. For the money he is going to command he is too much of an injury concern for me:


I would rather go after Vincent Jackson. But I don't really see SF signing a big name free agent at WR. The 49ers offense is limited in the passing game and with the way SF shuffles it's WR personnel I don't see them investing heavily (in terms of money wise) into the position. As VAfy-ya suggested taking a flier on a guy like Schillens or settling for a 2nd tier WR like Manningham.
Excellent analysis. And I agree they probably won't go for a big name, but if they consider Meachem second-tier I hope its him. And I would REALLY like Bowe. He seems like a Jimbaugh kind of WR, with the deep speed we've been looking for on the outside. But his contract would be HUGE so that's the only reason I dont see it happening.
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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Reading comprehension lacking much? No where did I say Rodgers is expendable because of Brock. He is expendable because of Cully and Spencer. Fans fall in love with ints, yet don't see the big picture. You can't sign everbody. Some guys won't be back. My gut says Rodgers will be one of those because he's asking price will be too much. Only time will tell.
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Not even. We have young players waiting in the wings at CB. Young pups like Cully and Brock make Rodgers expendable
BTW Rogers wasn't a big INT guy until this year. He's always been a good cover corner. Even the redskins fans will admit that even though they hated that he dropped so many INT's. I'd pay Rogers the big bucks, he deserves it.
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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I wouldn't read into that much. SF made a low ball offer with the ability of having no outside competition setting the market. We also had Snyder, Grant, and Brooks turn down in house contract extensions as well.
Touche. But honestly, I hope they upgrade RG. Synder is not the answer. Grant I believe is good enough to be a starter in this league. I dont see him sticking around. I think for our scheme, and the way the market looks, Brooks is probably a priority. He's still relatively young and he has LB skills with the ability to put his hand in the dirt and play down the line in the nickel. Not too many free agent LBs out their that can do both.
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Excellent analysis. And I agree they probably won't go for a big name, but if they consider Meachem second-tier I hope its him. And I would REALLY like Bowe. He seems like a Jimbaugh kind of WR, with the deep speed we've been looking for on the outside. But his contract would be HUGE so that's the only reason I dont see it happening.
I really like Bowe as well. Big play WR and terrific downfield blocker. Would be a great fit in this scheme.

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Touche. But honestly, I hope they upgrade RG. Synder is not the answer. Grant I believe is good enough to be a starter in this league. I dont see him sticking around. I think for our scheme, and the way the market looks, Brooks is probably a priority. He's still relatively young and he has LB skills with the ability to put his hand in the dirt and play down the line in the nickel. Not too many free agent LBs out their that can do both.
Depends on the money but they look a lot better with Snyder in there, of course that maybe the Chilo effect. I believe I read somewhere (maybe 49ersnews message board) that Snyder is basically like another coach next to Davis and is in his ear every play. Be interesting to see where Stanford Guard David DeCastro is pegged to going this years draft. Seen a lot of beat writers and mockers connecting the dots between SF and DeCastro.
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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BTW Rogers wasn't a big INT guy until this year. He's always been a good cover corner. Even the redskins fans will admit that even though they hated that he dropped so many INT's. I'd pay Rogers the big bucks, he deserves it.
Okay I didnt think I had to explain this but what I was referring to is we have young CBs who are on the verge of bigger roles in the near future. I wasn't literally referring to Brock as a starter, hence why I mentioned both of them. Spencer can give you everything Rodgers can. He just hasnt been healthy enough to show it.

And I know all about Rodgers ability. I was one of the few who was asking the FO to sign him after the lockout when everybody was screaming for Asomugha. But he is 30 years old and is not the same cover CB he once was. Or maybe you didnt see the Giants WRs abusing him when we played them. You dont have to agree with me but its how I feel. To me, Spencer and Rodgers are clones. One is a free agent next year ane one is under contract. All Im saying is if your going to spend big money on a CB, why not go after a younger, bigger, faster version of Rodgers so you can sure up your outside coverage for the next 5 years or so?

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Old 12-26-2011, 11:43 AM    (permalink
VAfy-ya
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Depends on the money but they look a lot better with Snyder in there, of course that maybe the Chilo effect. I believe I read somewhere (maybe 49ersnews message board) that Snyder is basically like another coach next to Davis and is in his ear every play. Be interesting to see where Stanford Guard David DeCastro is pegged to going this years draft. Seen a lot of beat writers and mockers connecting the dots between SF and DeCastro.
Yes, I really like DeCastro....

Also really like Garza for the Bears. Very athletic for his size. One of the best pulling OGs I've seen in awhile and can play center. He fits what Jimbaugh's offense needs at RG.

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Old 12-26-2011, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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Okay I didnt think I had to explain this but what I was referring to is we have young CBs who are on the verge of bigger roles in the near future. I wasn't literally referring to Brock as a starter, hence why I mentioned both of them. Spencer can give you everything Rodgers can. He just hasnt been healthy enough to show it.

And I know all about Rodgers ability. I was one of the few who was asking ask to sign him after the lockout when everybody was screaming for Asomugha. But he is 30 years old and is not the same cover CB he once was. Or maybe you didnt see the Giants WRs abusing him when we played them. You dont have to agree with me but its how I feel. To me, Spencer and Rodgers are clones. One is a free agent next year ane one is under contract. All Im saying is if your going to spend big money on a CB, why not go after a younger, bigger, faster version of Rodgers so you can sure up your outside coverage for the next 5 years or so?
Nice job back peddling. You question my reading comprehension when I clearly proved you put your foot in your mouth saying Brock makes Rogers expendable which is extremely far fetched.

Spencer has been inactive like 5 games and even when he is active he barely even plays. He may not even be on the roster next season. If Spencer can't beat out Tarell Brown. I know how anyone can possibly argue he's as good as Rogers now.

You're really reaching saying Rogers is not the same cover CB he once was when he's arguably having the best season of his career this year. Big deal saying he had a tough game against the giants mostly against Victor Cruz. Cruz has had a huge breakout season and even making big plays against the CB you mentioned Asomugha.

why not go after a younger, bigger, faster version of Rodgers so you can sure up your outside coverage for the next 5 years or so? Younger, bigger and faster doesn't always equal upgrade. That may be hard for you to comprehend.

Last but not least. Is it too hard for you to correctly spell Rogers without a D?
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Old 12-26-2011, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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I want to see what Daniel Kilgore can offer at Guard. I also think that Adama Snyder is far more valuable than it seems. Every snap he's been out this year it seems as though the entire O-Line craps out. Sadly, I think Snyder has been the glue. And ANY player that can man 5 positions is valuable.

I say let Rachal walk, re-sign Snyder, and allow Kilgore to back Snyder up. Save the draft pick for elsewhere.
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Old 12-26-2011, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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And Larry Grant is a RFA, so I don't care if he wants a big pay day and/or wants to play elsewhere. You give him a healthy tender and make another team pay to have him.
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Old 12-26-2011, 12:45 PM    (permalink
Madirishman
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Everything you said makes sense, EXCEPT Rodgers has already turn down a offer from the FO. That just tells me that he isnt willing to just take a measley 2 year deal. He wants Pro Bowl CB-type money and probably a 3-4 year deal. And I dont think Baalke will give it to him.
It's a negotiation. They could've low-balled him. Just because he reportedly turned an initial offer down, it shouldn't make one assume that he doesn't want to play for the Niners nor will he not accept a different offer in the future.
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Old 12-26-2011, 01:02 PM    (permalink
VAfy-ya
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Nice job back peddling. You question my reading comprehension when I clearly proved you put your foot in your mouth saying Brock makes Rogers expendable which is extremely far fetched.

Spencer has been inactive like 5 games and even when he is active he barely even plays. He may not even be on the roster next season. If Spencer can't beat out Tarell Brown. I know how anyone can possibly argue he's as good as Rogers now.

You're really reaching saying Rogers is not the same cover CB he once was when he's arguably having the best season of his career this year. Big deal saying he had a tough game against the giants mostly against Victor Cruz. Cruz has had a huge breakout season and even making big plays against the CB you mentioned Asomugha.

why not go after a younger, bigger, faster version of Rodgers so you can sure up your outside coverage for the next 5 years or so? Younger, bigger and faster doesn't always equal upgrade. That may be hard for you to comprehend.

Last but not least. Is it too hard for you to correctly spell Rogers without a D?
I'm sorry, did I strike a nerve? Listen, Im not going to go back and forward with you. Again, READING COMPREHENSION. Where did I say I didn't want Rogers(happy) back? All I ever said was if his asking price is too much, I'd rather go after a younger guy who can man the position for years to come. The Giants game isnt the only game he's struggled....its just the game I chose to mention. So smart-ass tell me, how many of Rogers ints have come in man coverage? How many did have the trail technique with a safety over-the-top so he could be aggressive and ball-hawk? I stand by my statement, he IS NOT the same cover CB he once was. He fits the scheme because we run alot of combo coverages and Cover 2. Alot of zone-man and he has very good zone instincts as a CB, as well as a being good tackler and good in run support. When has been asked to press, he's held up ok but that won't work against QB's like Brees.

There will come a point in time where we will have to face a top 5 offense(we only faced one this year). We're going have to defend the likes of Green Bay and the Saints every year to get to the Super Bowl. Those teams spread you out and attack you in myrid of ways. You can't expect to zone up QBs like Brees and Discount Double-Check. You have to press their WR and send some heat. We need to find guys more functional in press-coverage. Rodgers will have to do for now but eventually, a upgrade will be needed. So the question is how long is Rogers, at age 30, a starter before we seek a upgrade?

You don't pay a player for what he did this year, you pay him for what he will do in the years to come. No one is more excited about Rogers play than me but I also undestand the big picture is competing for Super Bowls for years to come. IF Rogers asks for more than what Baalke is comforable with, year wise or money wise, he will act accordingly.

As far as Brock, all you have to do is read my post directed at phlysac where I clearly say Im not sure if Brock is a starter, but I like him in the nickel role in the future. Maybe I should have worded it differently but the intent was to say that our young core of CBs make Rogers not worthy of a franchise tag. Or maybe you'd rather go shopping for a FS instead of a CB....whatever floats your boat.

And Spencer hasn't been healthy for most of training camp or the regular season. So what does him being inactive for 5 games have to do with anything? When healthy, he is everything Rogers is.....decent cover CB with great zone skills and a ability to make plays on the ball. Like I said, your entitled to your opinion but you aren't going to chance my stance. And it would be stupid for you to think that you could. Just agree to disagree and move on....I already have.
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Old 12-26-2011, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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No, Morgan isn't small, but I want someone who is bigger than him, more like a Colston size. The QB play does impact how the weapons on the team are used to some degree, but I believe that if we had an even bigger redzone threat WR, it would pay dividends with some of our redzone troubles. I'm confident that even Alex (love him or hate him) could throw an effective jump ball in the endzone where the big WR gets it, or nobody gets it.
Well we have Vernon Davis. You don't get much bigger than that. Honestly I think if Alex just plays better it won't be an issue. The Rams had Torry Holt and Issac Bruce who weren't muscular monsters, but they still dominated in the red zone thanks to great play from Warner and Bulger. Same with Rice and Taylor. Those guys weren't musclebound monsters. They just had accurate passes thrown to them.

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Reading comprehension lacking much? No where did I say Rodgers is expendable because of Brock. He is expendable because of Cully and Spencer. Fans fall in love with ints, yet don't see the big picture. You can't sign everbody. Some guys won't be back. My gut says Rodgers will be one of those because he's asking price will be too much. Only time will tell.
I think Culliver has slowed down after his hot start. He's getting picked on a lot lately and he hasn't been making as many plays as he's given up. Spencer I still like, but it's not like he's earned his job back. And he'll be 30 soon anyways.
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Old 12-26-2011, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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Outside of the top QBs, I'd have DeCastro as the top target for SF. He'd be a beast on that line.
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