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Old 01-25-2012, 01:01 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
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I know your freaking Canadian but for the love of god learn how to properly use the Quote function....

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This is a myth, the rules today favour the passing game so much that any records set over the last decade in passing are rather meaningless when compared to previous generations. Never mind the fact that they also used to play a 12 game schedule.
The fact is that Peyton is doing it on the same level as Brady and Brees of today while Eli is not.

The fact is that he is also doing this with worse receivers than Eli, worse receivers than when Brady broke his records, worse receivers than Brees in his domed stadium (no offense to any of these guys, but the fact is Peyton has done a lot with very little). Before ou go here, don't try and tell me that he had Wayne and Harrison... these guys are nothing without Manning.

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This is another myth, New England, New Orleans, the Giants, and Green Bay were among the worst defenses in the NFL, it is pretty rare when one team can dominate on both sides of the ball.
The Colts stunk this year because Peyton was injured but were already showing a real decline under the HCing of Caldwell so it came as no surprise that they tanked with him as their HC.
Your ridiculously wrong... In the years that NE won, they had strong defensive play.

The year NO won they had an extremely opportunistic defense who helped them with turnovers time and again.

The Giants D as stepped it up in these playoffs just as they did in 07 to carry them to the SB and beat one of the most potent passing attacks of all time.

Likewise, the year the Colts won the SB, their D stepped up in the offseason. Even still they are a D built to defend a lead and if Manning wasn't getting them the lead they were a non factor.

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Winner winner, chicken dinner.

It's funny how perception changes over the course of 6 months.
Does it matter? They are playing out of their minds right now.
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Old 01-25-2012, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DraftSavant View Post
Winner winner, chicken dinner.

It's funny how perception changes over the course of 6 months.
What's even funnier is Cruz was on the bubble to make the team. After a sick preseason he went on IR. Then this training camp he was dropping balls, and wasn't impressive by any means. Which means what? We signed Brandon Stokley to be the slot guy and replace Hixon who went on IR. I read somewhere Eli was working with Cruz more and Cruz then had the light bulb turn on and things clicked.

But it wasn't like Cruz came on the scene and all went well. He was very avg this pre season which put him on the bubble. I remember Gilbride screaming at him after running the wrong route. That was kinda funny to see.

But now all of sudden people like our weapons. In essence, to undrafted free agents, who now with Eli, have their game raised.
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Old 01-25-2012, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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so the receivers are playing well now, after being a large question mark coming in...don't you think that has just a little bit to say about Eli making them better and not vice versa? I mean come on, Eli carried this team while the D was getting shredded early on, while Hixon and Brandon ******* Stokley were our #3 WR's, Cruz couldn't hang onto a ball to save his life the first 4 weeks or so, Manningham's been banged up and inconsistent. I mean come on. Eli carried this team in the regular season, but you need a complete team to win, which is why the giants are in the super bowl, because the defense is finally playing up to the level of Eli and the offense.

Eli's not on peyton's level because peyton is a top 5 QB to ever play. Those comparisons aren't fair. Eli is still elite and a ******* clutch in the playoffs and because of that, and if he can keep it up another 4-5 years, then he will be seriously considered for the HOF
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Old 01-25-2012, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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so the receivers are playing well now, after being a large question mark coming in...don't you think that has just a little bit to say about Eli making them better and not vice versa? I mean come on, Eli carried this team while the D was getting shredded early on, while Hixon and Brandon ******* Stokley were our #3 WR's, Cruz couldn't hang onto a ball to save his life the first 4 weeks or so, Manningham's been banged up and inconsistent. I mean come on. Eli carried this team in the regular season, but you need a complete team to win, which is why the giants are in the super bowl, because the defense is finally playing up to the level of Eli and the offense.
I'll give you that, I mean Cruz does seem to have become a big time player in his own right but having a top QB certainly aids your development.

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Eli's not on peyton's level because peyton is a top 5 QB to ever play. Those comparisons aren't fair. Eli is still elite and a ******* clutch in the playoffs and because of that, and if he can keep it up another 4-5 years, then he will be seriously considered for the HOF
I can't agree more. As I said earlier, your comparing a possible HoF QB vs a guy who is arguably a top QB all time (top 10, top 5, GoAT; take your pick).

It isn't a knock on Eli.
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Old 01-25-2012, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
This is another myth, New England, New Orleans, the Giants, and Green Bay were among the worst defenses in the NFL, it is pretty rare when one team can dominate on both sides of the ball.
The Colts stunk this year because Peyton was injured but were already showing a real decline under the HCing of Caldwell so it came as no surprise that they tanked with him as their HC.
And of those New England is the only team that's still playing with a god awful defense and even they got an almost mediocre performance against the Ravens in their only test of the playoffs so far. The Saints D cost them a chance to go to the superbowl despite Brees putting up mindfuck numbers, the same for the Packers and the Giants D has actually been good for the past month and a half. No team dominates on both sides of the ball, but balance doesn't need to be 50/50 to help a team. And Peyton only had a D that did it's job once and won a ring with it.

Caldwell does blow monsterous balls, so for once I do agree with you on something. But wouldn't that be another thing Peyton's had to overcome?
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Old 01-25-2012, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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The fact is that Peyton is doing it on the same level as Brady and Brees of today while Eli is not.

The fact is that he is also doing this with worse receivers than Eli, worse receivers than when Brady broke his records, worse receivers than Brees in his domed stadium (no offense to any of these guys, but the fact is Peyton has done a lot with very little). Before ou go here, don't try and tell me that he had Wayne and Harrison... these guys are nothing without Manning.
Well I'd disagree on the first since Eli put up numbers just slightly below Brady, Rodgers and Brees in a worse situation than Rodgers and Brees so to me he's at least almost on their level this season.

The second part is what really got me. Harrison and Wayne were excellent receivers that any intelligent and accurate QB that they got to develop chemistry with was going to have a lot of success with. Both guys weren't the biggest or the fastest, but both guys had the speed to make big plays and most importantly, knew how to get open, and were completely reliable, in their hands and their route running, they were always were Peyton expected them to be and they always came down with the ball.

It's kinda funny since they were the inverse of the guys Eli's throwing to, Nicks, Cruz and Manningham, all make mistakes, all drop some passes they shouldn't, but all have the ability to turn any catch into a big play if you let them...anyway saying that Harrison and Wayne would be nothing without Peyton's absurd, in their prime both where excellent wideouts that Peyton was able to utilize amazingly well, but were top 10 guys on their own merits.

EDIT: I agree with you for the most part on Eli v Peyton, just had issue with this little bit.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

Last edited by Rosebud : 01-25-2012 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 01-25-2012, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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I don't have anything substantial to say on the matter, but I desperately wanted to post this picture somewhere.




So Eli is clearly in the hunt with funny faces as well...even though that one is more creepy than it is funny.
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Old 01-25-2012, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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Well I'd disagree on the first since Eli put up numbers just slightly below Brady, Rodgers and Brees in a worse situation than Rodgers and Brees so to me he's at least almost on their level this season.

The second part is what really got me. Harrison and Wayne were excellent receivers that any intelligent and accurate QB that they got to develop chemistry with was going to have a lot of success with. Both guys weren't the biggest or the fastest, but both guys had the speed to make big plays and most importantly, knew how to get open, and were completely reliable, in their hands and their route running, they were always were Peyton expected them to be and they always came down with the ball.

It's kinda funny since they were the inverse of the guys Eli's throwing to, Nicks, Cruz and Manningham, all make mistakes, all drop some passes they shouldn't, but all have the ability to turn any catch into a big play if you let them...anyway saying that Harrison and Wayne would be nothing without Peyton's absurd, in their prime both where excellent wideouts that Peyton was able to utilize amazingly well, but were top 10 guys on their own merits.

EDIT: I agree with you for the most part on Eli v Peyton, just had issue with this little bit.
IMO there is a reason that Harrison never had a 1,000 yard season or pro bowl appearance until Peyton got there. After Peyton got there he started putting up eye popping numbers, more than doubling his previous years production in Peyton's second year.

Meanwhile, Wayne's production severely dropped off this year without Peyton. I know he had Painter throwing to him etc. but elite receivers maintain production regardless of QB play.

It's just my opinion, but I think that they would have had less stellar careers without Manning by a long shot.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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IMO there is a reason that Harrison never had a 1,000 yard season or pro bowl appearance until Peyton got there. After Peyton got there he started putting up eye popping numbers, more than doubling his previous years production in Peyton's second year.

Meanwhile, Wayne's production severely dropped off this year without Peyton. I know he had Painter throwing to him etc. but elite receivers maintain production regardless of QB play.

It's just my opinion, but I think that they would have had less stellar careers without Manning by a long shot.
Harrison only played 12 games his third season and had he played 16 would've been on pace for 1034 yards, 79 catches with a ypc on par with what he put in some of his prime years. Marvin's a receiver that succeed on how skilled he was, not on his natural talent, so it makes sense that it took him til his 3rd season to really break out the way receivers used to.

And Wayne may not be an elite receiver like Megatron, who's natural talent lets him produce regardless of the QB, but his skills are great for an accurate and intelligent QB to utilize. Without someone who can read the D, find him and get him the ball he's not going to produce, but most receivers are like that unless they're insanely talented. Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt also didn't produce as much without Trent Green, Kurt Warner or Marc Bulger during his one good season. It's just what happens to skilled receivers who aren't great natural talents with **** QBs.

Of course they wouldn't have produced as much without Peyton, but with a good QB I think both Wayne and Harrison would still have produced.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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Harrison only played 12 games his third season and had he played 16 would've been on pace for 1034 yards, 79 catches with a ypc on par with what he put in some of his prime years. Marvin's a receiver that succeed on how skilled he was, not on his natural talent, so it makes sense that it took him til his 3rd season to really break out the way receivers used to.

And Wayne may not be an elite receiver like Megatron, who's natural talent lets him produce regardless of the QB, but his skills are great for an accurate and intelligent QB to utilize. Without someone who can read the D, find him and get him the ball he's not going to produce, but most receivers are like that unless they're insanely talented. Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt also didn't produce as much without Trent Green, Kurt Warner or Marc Bulger during his one good season. It's just what happens to skilled receivers who aren't great natural talents with **** QBs.

Of course they wouldn't have produced as much without Peyton, but with a good QB I think both Wayne and Harrison would still have produced.
Oh I don't doubt they would have produced and had decent careers, but Manning elevated them. Even to a point where earlier this season IIRC some were referring to Wayne as one of the best receivers in the game.

I don't think he gets the same level of recognition without Manning. Same probably goes for Harrison.

I will say that Eli too probably elevates some of the players around him.
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Old 01-26-2012, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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Oh I don't doubt they would have produced and had decent careers, but Manning elevated them. Even to a point where earlier this season IIRC some were referring to Wayne as one of the best receivers in the game.

I don't think he gets the same level of recognition without Manning. Same probably goes for Harrison.

I will say that Eli too probably elevates some of the players around him.
All great QBs elevate their WRs no matter how good they are. Even great guys like Fitz and Megatron put up better numbers with a good QB than with a bad one.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-26-2012, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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All great QBs elevate their WRs no matter how good they are. Even great guys like Fitz and Megatron put up better numbers with a good QB than with a bad one.
I wouldn't put Harrison and Wayne on the same level as Fitz or Megatron though and they were putting up comparable #'s to those guys during their time with Peyton.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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Cooper Manning ?

Hugo Manning ?
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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Cooper Manning ?

Hugo Manning ?
Chelsea/Bradley Manning?
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:00 AM    (permalink
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I think there are maybe 10 QBs in NFL history who you would put on Peyton Manning's level, and you'd probably be reaching once you got outside of the top 5.
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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Eli is elite. Just like Peyton he is nearly on track to set an unprecedented passing record this season.

In INTs
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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I love these old threads. It is amaxing that under two years ago this could have been a valid discussion topic. If someone posts this today, they get laughed out of the room.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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I love these old threads. It is amaxing that under two years ago this could have been a valid discussion topic. If someone posts this today, they get laughed out of the room.
Most people would have laughed them out of the room back then, too. Only delusional Giants fans and people who put too much into da ringz ever thought Eli was even close to Peyton.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Most people would have laughed them out of the room back then, too. Only delusional Giants fans and people who put too much into da ringz ever thought Eli was even close to Peyton.
Good thing you've read through more than just the thread title to see that "delusional giants fans" weren't actually arguing Eli was as good as Peyton...although now we'd just settle for him being as good as Shaun Hill...
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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Good thing you've read through more than just the thread title to see that "delusional giants fans" weren't actually arguing Eli was as good as Peyton...although now we'd just settle for him being as good as Shaun Hill...
I read through the thread. I never said anything about Giants fans here thinking that. My statement was that the only people who think that are delusional Giants fans. All people who think Eli is as good as Peyton are Giants fans but not all Giants fans think Eli is as good as Peyton. Kind of like all bleeps are bloops but all bloops aren't bleeps.

The people here are generally pretty unbiased and objective, except when it comes to top 20 QB Shaun Hill for some reason.

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Old 10-11-2013, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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Also, to the person that mentioned Eli in the HOF. I suppose he has a chance if he wins a few more rings (Troy Aikman made it on the first ballot after all), but only because people give quarterbacks way too much credit for wins and losses.

Eli is a pretty good quarterback who is having an excellent season.

Career wise?

-He's not even close to the Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, Brees level.
-He's not at Big Ben's level, or even Philip Rivers' for that matter.
-I'd put him on that next level with Jay Culter, Tony Romo, Matt Schaub, and Matt Ryan (and, in my opinion, the lesser of all of those)

He just throws too many picks, and isn't exactly overwhelmingly in any other area to make up for it. He's not terribly efficient and doesn't complete enough long passes to make up for his lack of short-field accuracy. He is, and has always been, extremely overrated because of his name and where he plays.
BF for the win.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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BF for the win.
He's overrated but when he is on he is absolutely ridiculous.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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Which one has the hotter wife?
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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BF for the win.
He'll still be a HOFer, that much is already determined. Even if he doesn't win a third ring.
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Old 10-11-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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He'll still be a HOFer, that much is already determined. Even if he doesn't win a third ring.
I never said he wouldn't, but he won't really deserve it. Since the 1970s there have been 14 guys make the HOF whose careers were primarily between 1970-2000 (add another one once Favre makes it). That evens out to 5 per decade. Is there any argument to be made that Eli is a top 5 QB over the course of his career? Hell no. He'll get in because the media loves Superbowls and attributes them to quarterbacks. It is what it is, but everyone will know why he's there.
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