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Old 02-22-2012, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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What has he ever done?
Carried a ****** Falcon team to the NFC Championship (or was it divisional?) round.

There was a time when Mike Vick was quite possibly the #1 play maker in the NFL.

Granted, I agree with him that Vick's time has passed.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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It's easier to find a guy who matches Welker's skillset than, say, trying to find a 6'3+ guy who runs a 4.4 and can be a great outside WR. However I'm not sure there is anyone who can replicate Welker's productivity. Julian Edelman filled in well but I don't see him catching 110 balls on average a season.

Welker does his job extraordinarily well. As far as slot WRs go he is the prototype. And the slot WR in the Patriots offense is a huge part of what makes them tick.
He didn't start 16 games maybe that is why.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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The bleacher report really?
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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John Abraham, DE, Falcons - Racks up sacks versus awful opponents; disappears often in big games.
Add that he refused to play for the Jets in the 04 playoff run due to a cold and how injury prone he is/was and I am shocked Abraham did not get on this list. Dude was the king of eating the awful Bills and Dolphins lineup and getting after Drew Bledsoe and the Miami QBs. Vs NE, he was a big time ghost.
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:22 AM    (permalink
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The bleacher report really?
I could have gone ESPN but that would have been too easy.

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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:32 AM    (permalink
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He didn't start 16 games maybe that is why.
Um, no. He can't consistently seperate and has inconsistent hands and route running technique. That's why. Welker is unique...
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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I don't agree with Welker being the No. 1 most overrated player in the league, but I think he IS overrated in some way. Let me explain.

Welker isn't the number 1 target/threat on his own team, and never has been. There have always been guys like Randy Moss, Gronkowski, Hernandez around him, and other teams concentrate on stoping those guys giving Welker the opportunity to produce at such a high level.

Welker is a great slot receiver, the best in the league and has many receptions and TD's to prove it. He constantly gets open and takes advantage of the linebackers and nicklebacks who try to cover him with his tremendous agility and explotion in short areas.

Having said that, he isn't one of the best Wide Receivers in the NFL, that title is reserved for players like Calvin and Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, Mike Wallace, etc. The other team knows the ball is comming to them so they put their best cornerback on their side, if that doesn't work, they put a safety over the top and they still find a way to catch the ball and put points on the board.

Wes Welker is a excellent player and a great story, but if he is being compared to those guys, he is being overrated.
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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I don't agree with Welker being the No. 1 most overrated player in the league, but I think he IS overrated in some way. Let me explain.

Welker isn't the number 1 target/threat on his own team, and never has been. There have always been guys like Randy Moss, Gronkowski, Hernandez around him, and other teams concentrate on stoping those guys giving Welker the opportunity to produce at such a high level.

Welker is a great slot receiver, the best in the league and has many receptions and TD's to prove it. He constantly gets open and takes advantage of the linebackers and nicklebacks who try to cover him with his tremendous agility and explotion in short areas.

Having said that, he isn't one of the best Wide Receivers in the NFL, that title is reserved for players like Calvin and Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, Mike Wallace, etc. The other team knows the ball is comming to them so they put their best cornerback on their side, if that doesn't work, they put a safety over the top and they still find a way to catch the ball and put points on the board.

Wes Welker is a excellent player and a great story, but if he is being compared to those guys, he is being overrated.
Tell that to the Jets.

The Jets rushed 3, played single coverage outside with Cromartie and Kyle Wilson, put Revis (for the most part on Welker) and basically had the other 5 players flood the middle of the field on most passing situations againts the Pats in the regular season.

Say what you want about Rex Ryan as a head coach but he is a damn good defensive coach. And he clearly thinks the Pats offense goes through Welker.

And once again, why is Welker being compared to Calvin Johnson? It really is like comparing Joe Thomas to Carl Nicks.

Calvin Johnson and Wes Welker both run routes and catch the ball, therefore they must be the same type of player.

Joe Thomas and Carl Nicks both block players, therefore they must be the same.
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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That's the thing, I'd rather have a productive WR than the "best" or a player with "elite" talent. Even among our fan base we can talk about who is better, Nicks or Cruz. I like Nicks better in terms of talent, but honestly, it doesn't mean anything if Cruz can be more productive than him. I will always go with production. I don't care if the guy is super human talent. Great, then you better have super human production. I like watching Fitz, and Megatron and guys like that, but I like watching productive WRs. If Fitz or Megatron are those guys too, then sweet. If some one like Welker can out produce them, then very big props to Welker.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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That's the thing, I'd rather have a productive WR than the "best" or a player with "elite" talent. Even among our fan base we can talk about who is better, Nicks or Cruz. I like Nicks better in terms of talent, but honestly, it doesn't mean anything if Cruz can be more productive than him. I will always go with production. I don't care if the guy is super human talent. Great, then you better have super human production. I like watching Fitz, and Megatron and guys like that, but I like watching productive WRs. If Fitz or Megatron are those guys too, then sweet. If some one like Welker can out produce them, then very big props to Welker.
That's the thing for me too. It doesn't matter how fast or big a guy is. At the end of the day the most important thing is catching balls and scoring TDs.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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That's the thing for me too. It doesn't matter how fast or big a guy is. At the end of the day the most important thing is catching balls and scoring TDs.
Production is important. What good is it having the best talent, HOF talent, super man of player who is not as productive as his talent would dictate? This guy could be a pro bowler, paid a boat load of money, who all fans respect, but the production may never match his talent.

Then you have a Welker or Cruz, and put them in a system, and now their production is high level. You see fans like WTF. These guys aren't as good as a house hold name like CJ, Fitz, or who ever else. However, these guys in their niche can be equally or more productive. That's why I love football. You can have guys who are a perfect fit to a system or scheme and their production is through the roof.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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Tell that to the Jets.

The Jets rushed 3, played single coverage outside with Cromartie and Kyle Wilson, put Revis (for the most part on Welker) and basically had the other 5 players flood the middle of the field on most passing situations againts the Pats in the regular season.

Say what you want about Rex Ryan as a head coach but he is a damn good defensive coach. And he clearly thinks the Pats offense goes through Welker.

And once again, why is Welker being compared to Calvin Johnson? It really is like comparing Joe Thomas to Carl Nicks.

Calvin Johnson and Wes Welker both run routes and catch the ball, therefore they must be the same type of player.

Joe Thomas and Carl Nicks both block players, therefore they must be the same.
Okay, so where do you put Welker in the hierarchy of WRs?
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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Okay, so where do you put Welker in the hierarchy of WRs?
Its not as cut and dry as that.

If I'm looking a slot WR then the only reason I don't take Welker 100 times out of 100 is because of age.

If I'm looking an outside guy then I'm not even thinking of him.

Of any player who can be classified as a WR he's almost certainly in my top ten or fifteen based on what he brings to my team from a production standpoint.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Tell that to the Jets.

The Jets rushed 3, played single coverage outside with Cromartie and Kyle Wilson, put Revis (for the most part on Welker) and basically had the other 5 players flood the middle of the field on most passing situations againts the Pats in the regular season.

Say what you want about Rex Ryan as a head coach but he is a damn good defensive coach. And he clearly thinks the Pats offense goes through Welker.
Tell that to te Broncos.

Who put Chris Harris (a freaking rookie) all day against Wes Welker, and let Champ cover a no-name wideout with zero impact on the game.

The Jets strategy to put Revis on Welker just tells you they have common sense, why waste your best defensive player on a guy who has none to little impact in the game like the Broncos stupidly did... twice.

Letting 5 guys flood the middle sounds more like an answer to the TE problem, who actually are the No. 1 threat when you are playing the Pats and Ryan knows this. But trust me, if they could put Revis on Gronkowski and shut him down effectively they would, but it's just not a great match up. So they put him against the 2nd option and try to figure out the TE problem with something else.

Rex Ryan is an excellent defensive mind, I like him.

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And once again, why is Welker being compared to Calvin Johnson? It really is like comparing Joe Thomas to Carl Nicks.

Calvin Johnson and Wes Welker both run routes and catch the ball, therefore they must be the same type of player.

Joe Thomas and Carl Nicks both block players, therefore they must be the same.
They should not be compared as players on the football field, but you can compare the impact they have on their team. Joe Thomas and Carl Nicks are great players, both the best at their positions, but if I were to start an o-line from zilch I would choose Thomas over Nicks because he plays a more valuable position and has more impact on the offense.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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They should not be compared as players on the football field, but you can compare the impact they have on their team. Joe Thomas and Carl Nicks are great players, both the best at their positions, but if I were to start an o-line from zilch I would choose Thomas over Nicks because he plays a more valuable position and has more impact on the offense.
Oh don't get me wrong, if you offered me Calvin Johnson or Wes Welker I'd bite your hand off getting Calvin Johnson. In the same way I would take Joe Thomas over Carl Nicks.

I just think it is silly of people to say Welker is overrated because he can't do what Calvin Johnson does, or Larry Fitzgerald etc. Welker is a slot WR and the best one in the NFL. For teams that use slot WRs a lot (and the number of them are growing) having a dependable guy like Welker who can run the routes and be on the same page as the QB is as important as the majority of teams and their #1 WR outside.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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That's the thing, I'd rather have a productive WR than the "best" or a player with "elite" talent. Even among our fan base we can talk about who is better, Nicks or Cruz. I like Nicks better in terms of talent, but honestly, it doesn't mean anything if Cruz can be more productive than him. I will always go with production. I don't care if the guy is super human talent. Great, then you better have super human production. I like watching Fitz, and Megatron and guys like that, but I like watching productive WRs. If Fitz or Megatron are those guys too, then sweet. If some one like Welker can out produce them, then very big props to Welker.
That's the ting, the best players with elite talent like Fitzgerald, the Johnsons, Wallace, Gronkowski, open things up for the "productive" guys to put up the stats while being productive themselves. Even with guys like Nicks who are not among the elite in the NFL, they still opens things up for the other guys on the team like Cruz and Manningham.

To put an example: Maybe guys like Greg Little and Mohammed Massaquoi could be "productive WR" if they had a good player (true number 1 wideout) like Nicks on the other side, not even an elite one. Having a good quarterback like Welker and Cruz have doesn't hurt either.

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Old 02-23-2012, 10:31 PM    (permalink
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That's the ting, the best players with elite talent like Fitzgerald, the Johnsons, Wallace, Gronkowski, open things up for the "productive" guys to put up the stats while being productive themselves. Even with guys like Nicks who are not among the elite in the NFL, they still opens things up for the other guys on the team like Cruz and Manningham.

I am sure that may be a small part in it. You can even say the Qbs are an issue too. Good or bad, or even OL. Maybe the system as well.

That's the thing, in our system that's not true. Nicks is a good or a step below elite, but our passing system has the frame work of the Run and Shoot where we have a lot of option and choice routes. Cruz did it all on his own by running those routes perfectly! Same with Steve Smith when he was here. It's not secret both played the slot, and both had great production.

In our system, or their niche they were very productive. I am not going to comment on other systems because I don't watch all their games. However, you brought up ours, so I will just talk about it. Cruz learned the choice and option routes, and it took time, and some yelling by Gilbride, but he does it on his own.





Nicks has nothing to do with it. In fact teams, were doubling both guys and alternating, and still couldn't stop Cruz or Nicks for that matter. But with Cruz, he found his niche and had great if not elite production this year. Again, you find a guy and put him in the right system, and I'll take production any day. For us, it will be interesting to see if Cruz can do this non stop in his niche. He doesn't need anyone to do anything. He just needs to run and execute his choice and option routes and the production will come.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Simply looking at production is not a fair evaluation at all. I would make a strong argument that a WR who demands double coverage sometimes triple in zone defense who catches 3 passes for 30 yards while sliding coverage all game is far more valuable than a WR who can catch 7 passes for 60 yards and a TD vs the 3rd CB.

You have to look at the whole picture as well. Great WRs dictate coverage. The elite ones produce while dictating coverage. Production is half the battle. Football isn't baseball, we can't just look at stats and say this guy is better than that guy bc his stats are better.
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Old 02-24-2012, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Simply looking at production is not a fair evaluation at all. I would make a strong argument that a WR who demands double coverage sometimes triple in zone defense who catches 3 passes for 30 yards while sliding coverage all game is far more valuable than a WR who can catch 7 passes for 60 yards and a TD vs the 3rd CB.

You have to look at the whole picture as well. Great WRs dictate coverage. The elite ones produce while dictating coverage. Production is half the battle. Football isn't baseball, we can't just look at stats and say this guy is better than that guy bc his stats are better.
Well then that's the extreme case, however, you would throw those concepts on the board and see what everyone is doing. You want to see X, Z, F and H, and what's going on.

If in that case that X is bracketed or they are rolling that way all game long fine. However, they are doing that for every X. You have to be a game changer or elite status for teams to do that.

Also, you have to stick to the original essence of the thread which was if Welker is over rated. I contend he is not, and that while he may not be elite or have elite talent, he is in a niche system that allows him to have elite production.

True stats aren't everything, but at this WR position I want production. I can have a Megatron but if teams can take him away or do something else, production has to come somewhere else. Plus it's not rule that even if they are scheming towards him, he can still be very productive. We saw this all season from him, catching balls with 3 guys around him. So it can be done.

However, each system has it's rules and perks. For example, for us it doesn't matter who is X. Your other WR rules if executed correctly, and I say IF, because ours is probably one of the most complex in the NFL, IF executed perfectly, it can rape most defenses. Smith and Cruz both proved this in our specific system.

But Like I told Broncofan, I don't really want to comment on other teams specific systems, because I don't get to watch all their games. For us, I think I can comment on it because I pay attention to that side of the ball and watch every game.
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