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Old 02-27-2012, 10:52 PM    (permalink
PossibleCabbage
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Looking back at it, didn't Brockers have kind of an awful combine?

I mean, he was great at the weigh-ins, no one can deny that. But even with his long arms, 19 reps is kind of embarrassing for a defensive tackle. He also ran the third slowest 40 of any DL prospect (5.36 seconds, ahead of Dominique Hamilton and Christian Tupou, neither of whom is a lock to even be drafted), he jumped poorly (26.5" and 105" vert and broad), and his shuttle was atrocious (4.81 seconds).

I mean, it's not like this is a guy with tons of great tape, this is a guy with 14 college starts who was thought of as a top ten pick because of his great tools, but what if the only thing he really has going for him is that he's really tall and long? Can you really take him in the top 10 now?

I'm inclined to put him behind Still, Cox, and Poe.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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He did not wow like people thought he would, but I still think he goes in the top 20. Some of those numbers do scare me a little bit, I'm not going to lie. He is still very young and has the ability to be a dominant DL in the NFL, but I think everyone was expecting a lot more from him.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:03 PM    (permalink
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Brockers doesn't have top-10 film is my problem with him. Just a lot of potential. And size. I prefer Cox but he's limited to 3-tech. Brockers could potentially play anywhere. Or nowhere. He's scary (both ways).

I really don't care AT ALL about his 40-yard dash though. Or the jumps. Although he doesn't have a great burst on tape so I'm not surprised he didn't jump incredibly.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:21 PM    (permalink
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Brockers doesn't have top-10 film is my problem with him. Just a lot of potential. And size.
What sort of potential does he have other than size? I mean, he can get stronger... but he's not explosive and he doesn't move well. What are you going to do with that?
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:02 AM    (permalink
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What sort of potential does he have other than size? I mean, he can get stronger... but he's not explosive and he doesn't move well. What are you going to do with that?
Refine his technique. He does move pretty well for his size - we are just overreacting to a 40-yard dash by a 300+ pound guy who will never run 40 yards. You can improve your first step if you work at it. And your hands.
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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Looking back at it, didn't Brockers have kind of an awful combine?

I mean, he was great at the weigh-ins, no one can deny that. But even with his long arms, 19 reps is kind of embarrassing for a defensive tackle. He also ran the third slowest 40 of any DL prospect (5.36 seconds, ahead of Dominique Hamilton and Christian Tupou, neither of whom is a lock to even be drafted), he jumped poorly (26.5" and 105" vert and broad), and his shuttle was atrocious (4.81 seconds).

I mean, it's not like this is a guy with tons of great tape, this is a guy with 14 college starts who was thought of as a top ten pick because of his great tools, but what if the only thing he really has going for him is that he's really tall and long? Can you really take him in the top 10 now?

I'm inclined to put him behind Still, Cox, and Poe.

great post also let's not forget Brockers has 2 career sacks. He went from top 10 to possibly late 1 or beyond. That's alot of money to lose.
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Old 02-28-2012, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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Everything can change clearly with pro days and a better time. It is not the end all, but nothing I have seen other than 40 times in terms of the combine performance, not including off the field issues, can hurt a players draft stock more.


Dwayne Allen 40 at 4.89- Very surprised, thought he was a much better athlete than that as a 40 time, on the field he easily looks like the best athlete but had shocking numbers. Could lose out completely on the possibility of being in the 1st round. Great skills but needs to show he is an elite athlete to get picked up high.


Vontaze Burfict 40 at 4.93- Very surprised, Larry Foote back in the day also ran a very slow 40 that was close to 5 sections, but not sure Burfict has the instincts and feel Foote had.


Leonard Johnson 40 at 4.65- Great corner, poor time, can improve it I bet and will, should not be an issue if he does improve.


Eric Page 40 at 4.60- Surprised such a fast little playmaker is so slow in the 40, interesting but again he could improve on that time.


Robert Blanton 40 at 4.66- Bad showing for a corner already at the boarder of being undrafted.


Kendall Wright 40 at 4.61- Surprise to all, but again he can improve the time and I expect him too. He plays a lot faster on the field than this time says.
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:59 AM    (permalink
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Leonard Johnson - CB - Iowa State - short CB - can't run and can't jump = late day three pick.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:06 AM    (permalink
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If you think anyone won or loss the combine...then you guys need help.

Film > Workouts.

The only benefits from the combine are the player interviews & medical reports.
I agree that what you put on the film far outweighs the workouts, but we see it year after year, if a guy looks pretty solid on tape, and puts up great numbers at the combine he elevates his stock tremendously in some cases. Where as the opposite is true as well, if he looks decent on tape but has a poor showing at the combine people begin to drop said player down their boards because you can't coach speed.

There are some well run, and some poorly run organizations in the league that place a different value on different attributes, that's what you've got here. Some teams attach little weight to these numbers, others attach too much weight to football metrics. That's why there is no perfect science, and it's part of what keeps us all coming back for more!
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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Workouts really = Potential. You see that film, you think this, you get this. Now you see this, and get WOW, now go back see why didn't he do that.

Maybe the top 15 pick has a lot of room to grow and get better with those #s, now he moves up a few slots. After reviewing tape you do see flashes of those #s.

Or for some teams the opposite happens, drop him a few cause he never showed those #s looking all through the film.

And then you have guys with good tape, but not great numbers. He is what he is, doesn't look like much room to grow with the tools he has.

Don't you want your 32nd pick to look like he should have been #1 overall pick, 3-4 years down the line?
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:54 AM    (permalink
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Vontaze. People talked late first, running a 4.9 something made people second guess.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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I always go back to this old piece written by one of the best football minds of all time.

http://www.sportsxchange.com/DS97/walsh/walsh3.htm

The gyst: Football people can see value in the combine, but from different angles than us fans do.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:29 AM    (permalink
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Reading on the 40, it would be pretty interesting if they ran it from the position they usually start at in football. The only guys that should be running it from the down position would be the linemen.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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Vontaze. People talked late first, running a 4.9 something made people second guess.
Didn't Brandon Spikes run over 5.0 in the 40? He's playing pretty well in New England, sometimes people (especially us draftniks) tend to overplay what the difference between a MLB at 4.75 and 4.9 truly is, that .15 can easily be made up with instincts in most cases.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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Didn't Brandon Spikes run over 5.0 in the 40? He's playing pretty well in New England, sometimes people (especially us draftniks) tend to overplay what the difference between a MLB at 4.75 and 4.9 truly is, that .15 can easily be made up with instincts in most cases.
yeah, he didn't go in the first. And because of the right coach his weaknesses are hid.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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Didn't Brandon Spikes run over 5.0 in the 40? He's playing pretty well in New England, sometimes people (especially us draftniks) tend to overplay what the difference between a MLB at 4.75 and 4.9 truly is, that .15 can easily be made up with instincts in most cases.
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yeah, he didn't go in the first. And because of the right coach his weaknesses are hid.
Pretty much this. He was a 4th rounder iirc.

And everyone knows Vontaze doesnt have the insticts to make up the difference. He gets hyped, lays a big hit, and its suppose to make him amazing.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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Spikes in the second round.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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Spikes in the second round.
Correct on the second round. I thought Spikes was/is more instinctive as a player. Their 40s are about the same but one guy was a ring leader of a defense the other just a pretender.

As for guys that lost money i think the group consisting of Cliff Harris, Janoris Jenkins and Dre Kirkpatrick may have made some or lost some depending on what came out of their interviews. Probably have to wait till draft day to find out.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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Dre still a Cb or safety?
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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Dre still a Cb or safety?
CB to start his career. He is what he is, though. You aren't going to love putting Dre' on an island and having him run verticals all day long, but he's a smart, tough instinctive cornerback.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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Malcolm Jenkins effect then?
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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Think Mike Adams lost some money. He didn't have a good rep at the end of the season, but he rocked at the Senior Bowl, and people were jumping him up their draft boards. He proved at the combine that one good game does not a draftee make.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Think Mike Adams lost some money. He didn't have a good rep at the end of the season, but he rocked at the Senior Bowl, and people were jumping him up their draft boards. He proved at the combine that one good game does not a draftee make.
His tape is very good though, so I don't think an average to below average combine will hurt him very much. Offensive linemen aren't affected by workout numbers as much as other positions.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:26 PM    (permalink
PossibleCabbage
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
His tape is very good though, so I don't think an average to below average combine will hurt him very much. Offensive linemen aren't affected by workout numbers as much as other positions.
He lost money in the sense that "he's now definitely the #3 OT" whereas before he had a chance at the #2. Not only is Reiff a better athlete, Reiff played better in college.

Martin has a chance to jump him too, if he has a really good pro day.

But Adams is still a first round pick. It would be weird for only 3 OTs to go in the first.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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Brock Osweiler probably had a chance to come in and wow a team and maybe pull a Joe Flacco in this draft but i think his flame has died a little. I know there is always pro days but i think a lot of teams put less stock in those.
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