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Old 02-03-2012, 01:11 PM    (permalink
bitonti
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Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
Upshaw is not immune to it because of his college position + good weight for a 3-4 OLB.
he played 4 years of 3-4 outside linebacker for arguably the best defense in the nation.

whether he's an all pro or pro bowler, yes I agree that's up for debate. He's certainly not a perfect prospect.

You are making this about Upshaw, the real question you should be asking is what about Perry, Curry, Mercilus etc makes people think they can play LB? you are quick to point out the flaws of Upshaw but no one says boo about Nick Perry. maybe cause we don't know as much about him.
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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I don't know how you pick Nick Perry over Courtney Upshaw, if you're a team looking for a pass rusher. Upshaw looks like the real deal. He's got more size and experience as a 3-4 OLB. Plus, Upshaw has much more position flexibility, as I think he can play both 3-4 and 4-3 schemes. The Skins aren't going to take an OLB and Buffalo is the only other 3-4 team in the top 10. I don't see anyway that Perry goes top 10 unless a team trades up (Green Bay?, San Diego?). I probably wouldn't touch Perry if I'm a 4-3 team.
bills moved back to the 43 middle of the yr. and are going to stick with it. Gaily even said it last week the base d will be a 43.
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Old 02-03-2012, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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The Bills Coaching Staff have come out this week and stated they're going with the 4-3 so I don't see him being taken by the Bills at #10 unless they're dead set that he can play DE in the 4-3.

He looks more like a 3-4 OLB than 4-3 DE to me.
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Old 02-03-2012, 04:59 PM    (permalink
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He looks more like a 3-4 OLB than 4-3 DE to me.
this is probably over simplifying but JMO,

Any DE prospect can play in the 4-3. It's probably what they played in school.

not every DE can stand up and play 3-4 OLB.

granted, Perry might be light in certain DE roles (he's not a Michael Strahan type) but there are many 4-3's that have 250 pound DE for example the Falcons, Eagles, and the Colts.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:02 PM    (permalink
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this is probably over simplifying but JMO,

Any DE prospect can play in the 4-3. It's probably what they played in school.

not every DE can stand up and play 3-4 OLB.

granted, Perry might be light in certain DE roles (he's not a Michael Strahan type) but there are many 4-3's that have 250 pound DE for example the Falcons, Eagles, and the Colts.
Oversimplifying slightly, but on point overall.

Not to mention, his pass rush is largely based off of strength, leverage, and bullrushing, not beating the tackle in space and dipping/skimming the edge.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:13 PM    (permalink
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This is what I see from Nick Perry. A guy who gets off the ball well, fast in short areas, and has a nice pop on contact. This is why I don't feel confident in saying he'll bust. That's reserved for guys who don't have an explosive first movement.


But what I also see is someone who doesn't have any hip flexibility (scary for a guy who constantly runs the arch), doesn't have much of a threat to come back inside on the tackle, and someone who will be constantly pushed past the QB in the NFL.


Really want to see him at the combine.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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This is what I see from Nick Perry. A guy who gets off the ball well, fast in short areas, and has a nice pop on contact. This is why I don't feel confident in saying he'll bust. That's reserved for guys who don't have an explosive first movement.


But what I also see is someone who doesn't have any hip flexibility (scary for a guy who constantly runs the arch), doesn't have much of a threat to come back inside on the tackle, and someone who will be constantly pushed past the QB in the NFL.


Really want to see him at the combine.
Pretty much this. He has very nice closing speed, too, which is a different animal than burst off the ball.
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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I dont think he can play 4-3 DE. Hes strictly a 3-4 OLB IMO.
That's exactly what I said about Jerry Hughes 2 years ago too, but the Colts didn't listen.

Perry needs to stand up.
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:37 AM    (permalink
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Like all juniors, if he wants to be a high pick, he will have to demonstrate at the combine, the physical talent to dominate at the next level. Right now, he is just one of many juniors who have potential to rise up the charts but without the combine performance, it is difficult on tape to put him anywhere near the top 10.
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Old 02-04-2012, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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First time poster on these boards. I have been doing my own scouting of draft prospects for years. I usually use YouTube to find video on guys. Does anyone know of another location to find video on players?

To add to the discussion on Perry, from the little tape I have seen of him I would agree with many here that say he plays stiff. My biggest questions come in the form of his ability to bend, change direction, and play in space. I need to put more time in on Nick though. At this point, I do not see him as a Top 15 pick. Anything after 20 probably fits his value better.

If anyone can point me in the direction of other locations to watch game tape on these guys that would be much appreciated. I look forward to becoming part of these draft forums on a regular basis.

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Old 02-04-2012, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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this is probably over simplifying but JMO,

Any DE prospect can play in the 4-3. It's probably what they played in school.

not every DE can stand up and play 3-4 OLB.

granted, Perry might be light in certain DE roles (he's not a Michael Strahan type) but there are many 4-3's that have 250 pound DE for example the Falcons, Eagles, and the Colts.
Yeah I probably was oversimplifying it but I strictly for what the Bills are looking for. He isn't a match.

Bills GM Buddy Nix has come out he wants DE guys who are 6'4, 260 +. Perry looks like he's going to measure in at 6'.25.
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Old 02-05-2012, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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I never really saw him as an elite caliber talent...
I am with you there. His internet hype has inflated in the past couple months, but I think he's a 2nd round talent at best. He's got some raw talent for sure, I just don't see the nastiness I would like to see from a pass rusher at the next level. Perhaps, he moves up a tad on my board after workouts, but as far as pass rushing prospects, he's 5th on my list behind Coples, Curry, Ingram, and Upshaw.
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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I want to see his agility times, ie shuttle, 3 cone, the 10 yard and the jumps before I move him above #20.

J
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
he played 4 years of 3-4 outside linebacker for arguably the best defense in the nation.

whether he's an all pro or pro bowler, yes I agree that's up for debate. He's certainly not a perfect prospect.

You are making this about Upshaw, the real question you should be asking is what about Perry, Curry, Mercilus etc makes people think they can play LB? you are quick to point out the flaws of Upshaw but no one says boo about Nick Perry. maybe cause we don't know as much about him.
In college....In college Chris Long played 3-4 years at 3-4 DE...I would never draft him to be a 3-4 DE.

Sorry, but I just don't think a college 3-4 is the same as a pro 3-4, even one as good as Alabama's. Maybe if Upshaw had things like size...more athleticism...more speed...more length...I think those advantages would help guys like Perry, Curry, and Mercilus make the transition to a pro 3-4 OLB position and be more dynamic talents at the position.

What made teams think that Williw McGinest could play 3-4 OLB? Charles Haley? DeMarcus Ware? Shawne Merriman? Calvin Pace? Terrell Suggs? Tamba Hali? Those were all college DEs...How many 3-4 OLBs were college LBs? How many of those went in the top 20?

Iunno man...I like Upshaw just fine as a player, but I'm extremely skeptical of him as a DE/OLB. I just don' think the position translate like that from college to the pros...I think he's a 4-3 DE.
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Old 03-01-2012, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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NICK PERRY IS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS

Really though, subpar shuttle, 3-cone, and 10-yard split confirms the slow first step and lack of flexibility you see on tape.

4-3 end, solely.
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Old 03-01-2012, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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NICK PERRY IS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS

Really though, subpar shuttle, 3-cone, and 10-yard split confirms the slow first step and lack of flexibility you see on tape.

4-3 end, solely.

Coples scored a lot worse than Nick Perry in the 3-cone and shuttle, not sure about the 10-yard split. Matter of fact, Coples was the worst DE at the combine in the 3-cone and shuttle.

Perry's broad jump, vertical jump, 40 time, and bench reps were all the best of the DE's.
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Old 03-01-2012, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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Coples scored a lot worse than Nick Perry in the 3-cone and shuttle, not sure about the 10-yard split. Matter of fact, Coples was the worst DE at the combine in the 3-cone and shuttle.

Perry's broad jump, vertical jump, 40 time, and bench reps were all the best of the DE's.
All of that means he's explosive though, not flexible. Not like anybody was really considering Coples to stand up as a 3-4 OLB, so that's a bit of a strange comparison. There's probably a chance Perry could make it work, if memory serves Aldon Smith and Ryan Kerrigan were a bit stiff last year as well and they looked good as rookies, but given he looked stiff on tape and tested out stiff I don't think it's ridiculous to say he's better suited as a 4-3 end.
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Old 03-01-2012, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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All of that means he's explosive though, not flexible. Not like anybody was really considering Coples to stand up as a 3-4 OLB, so that's a bit of a strange comparison. There's probably a chance Perry could make it work, if memory serves Aldon Smith and Ryan Kerrigan were a bit stiff last year as well and they looked good as rookies, but given he looked stiff on tape and tested out stiff I don't think it's ridiculous to say he's better suited as a 4-3 end.

You can still be an elite pass rusher if you show some stiffness as long as you have lower body explosiveness. I don't know that you can be a great pass rusher without it, no matter how flexible you are.

The question I'm more interested in is whether Nick Perry should be the #1 4-3 DE in this class and a top 10 pick.
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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NICK PERRY IS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS

Really though, subpar shuttle, 3-cone, and 10-yard split confirms the slow first step and lack of flexibility you see on tape.

4-3 end, solely.
Tha who whaaaaaaa?

…Perry EASILY has the best first step in the draft not named Bruce Irvin who's a situational guy right away for now. He had one of the best 10 yard split times for anybody on Monday at 1.56...

Perry struggled with the agility drills, but even though he looks stiff on tape, he looks solid when asked to drop into a short zone. But the truth is that if he moves to LB and a DC uses him right, he wont be droppi g into coverage more than a few times a game, and will also likely be asked to drop into the 260-265 range to advance his movement skills.
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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Tha who whaaaaaaa?

…Perry EASILY has the best first step in the draft not named Bruce Irvin who's a situational guy right away for now. He had one of the best 10 yard split times for anybody on Monday at 1.56...

Perry struggled with the agility drills, but even though he looks stiff on tape, he looks solid when asked to drop into a short zone. But the truth is that if he moves to LB and a DC uses him right, he wont be droppi g into coverage more than a few times a game, and will also likely be asked to drop into the 260-265 range to advance his movement skills.
The issue with his stiffness as it relates to playing 34 OLB isn't so much about his coverage as it about his ability to rush from a wide angle. The angles from what is essentially 9-tech require the pass rusher to have the flexibility to dip low and turn the corner. It makes it easier on OT's in the sense that allows them can overplay the bullrush/inside move more because they know they can just wash the pass rusher up field when he's trying to 'run the arc'. I can't speak for Steady Lurkin but I'm guessing that is what he's referring too.

Now that's not saying Perry still can't be a very effective pass rusher. He's very explosive and turns his speed into power better than any DE in this draft. Just why he's much suited playing in tighter where he has more of a two-way go than playing out wide where he has to be able to turn the corner.
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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I believe there are enough 4-3 teams with needs at DE in the top 12 that he will get picked somewhere in there. The lack of top tier prototypical 4-3 DE's in this draft will add to the likely hood him and Coples go in that range.
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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You can still be an elite pass rusher if you show some stiffness as long as you have lower body explosiveness. I don't know that you can be a great pass rusher without it, no matter how flexible you are.

The question I'm more interested in is whether Nick Perry should be the #1 4-3 DE in this class and a top 10 pick.
I don't think what type of pass rusher he'll be was the question, at least not what I was saying. The ability to stand up and play linebacker with that lack of flexibility is fair to question though, I think. Obviously the explosiveness helps, but could be just as positive with his hand in the dirt.
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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Coples scored a lot worse than Nick Perry in the 3-cone and shuttle, not sure about the 10-yard split. Matter of fact, Coples was the worst DE at the combine in the 3-cone and shuttle.

Perry's broad jump, vertical jump, 40 time, and bench reps were all the best of the DE's.
Which is why I wouldn't touch him if I was a 4-3 team needing a pass rusher near the top of the draft (among other reasons). I'm all for rolling the dice on freakish athletes and developing them as pass rushers but I'm no longer convinced that Coples is that athlete.
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:23 PM    (permalink
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On the other hand, how is Nick Perry different from Everson Griffen as a prospect?

Essentially the same production, almost exact same build (height, weight, arm length, etc.), same upper body strength (reps), same speed (mid 4.6 range).

Nick Perry edges him out slightly in the vertical and broad jump.


Thoughts?
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:23 PM    (permalink
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On the other hand, how is Nick Perry different from Everson Griffen as a prospect?

Essentially the same production, almost exact same build (height, weight, arm length, etc.), same upper body strength (reps), same speed (mid 4.6 range).

Nick Perry edges him out slightly in the vertical and broad jump.


Thoughts?
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