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Old 03-02-2012, 03:42 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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The NFL should take away the Saints first round pick for this.
Too late. The Patriots already stole it from them.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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I don't think eliminating incentives for causing injuries is wussifying the league. Playing hard, within the confines of the rules I'm OK with; promoting the injuring of players, possibly causing permanent and irreparable damage to their mind or body, I'm not OK with.
Players are taught to hit each other where they are injured. If a WR has broken ribs, they're going after those ribs.

It's football. That's what they do. This bounty issue has been in the league for years. The Saints just got caught.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:45 PM    (permalink
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@rotoworld

The Saints' 2010-2011 "bounty" program under ex-defensive coordinator Gregg Williams is being characterized by the NFL as a "pay for performance" plan that awarded defenders $1,500 for "knockouts" and $1,000" for offensive players the opposing team was forced to cart off the field.
The Saints would often target a particular player, which reminds of Williams' comments to inflict "remember-me shots" on Brett Favre and Peyton Manning in 2010. Players "regularly" put money into a cash pool and received payments when they successfully injured opponents. New Orleans is already without a 2012 first-round pick, so the NFL could begin taking away additional draft choices this year and a first-rounder in 2013. Expect discipline to be harsh. It will be discussed further at the league's meetings in March.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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I'm sorry, but "it's football" isn't really a compelling argument.

Just because something has always been done in a certain way doesn't make it justified.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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i don't like anything that actively encourages injury. big hits? knocking a guy out for a couple plays? whatever. but causing an actual injury? would you have applauded the chiefs if they'd paid out pollard for hitting brady, for instance? or if the titans had paid out haynesworth for giving gurode stitches? there's a fine line, and from what i can read before hitting filters, this crossed all over it.
I probably didn't express my thoughts properly. I don't advocate injuries, but at the same time, I hate taking away aggression from defenses. Let em play.

As long as you play within the whistles, I have no problem with being physical. I think the rules are geared towards taking that away from defenses, I think Greg's "bounty" rules were more of a way to encourage his defense to continue being aggressive and physical.

I never viewed the Saints defense as being dirty. Just physical. They played within the rules of the game.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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i don't like anything that actively encourages injury. big hits? knocking a guy out for a couple plays? whatever. but causing an actual injury? would you have applauded the chiefs if they'd paid out pollard for hitting brady, for instance? or if the titans had paid out haynesworth for giving gurode stitches? there's a fine line, and from what i can read before hitting filters, this crossed all over it.
^ It's nice when someone can articulate your argument for you.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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This sounds rather serious.

My money is on the league "making an example" out of the Saints. As they try and make all of these changes to improve player safety, having a team actively out to hurt opposing players isn't going to fly.

I'm just surprised it wasn't the Lions getting caught.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Sean Payton should be forced to resign. And all of their draft picks should be forfeitted. Forever.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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Intimidation is a big part of defense. You want your defense to be feared. You get into the offense's head. You don't want them going over the middle with no fear of getting lit up, you don't want the qb to throw the ball without any fear of getting hit.

Intimidation is a big part of defense. I don't think the Saints were telling their guys "go after knees, stomp this guy after the whistle, twist this guy's ankle"

I think they were just emphasizing physical play. Don't be afraid to light someone up. You get fined for sneezing on offenses now. So they basically said ok, we'll put away money as a defense for fines, and accept them and sacrifice some money for physical play.

I don't have a problem with that.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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Intimidation is a big part of defense. You want your defense to be feared. You get into the offense's head. You don't want them going over the middle with no fear of getting lit up, you don't want the qb to throw the ball without any fear of getting hit.

Intimidation is a big part of defense. I don't think the Saints were telling their guys "go after knees, stomp this guy after the whistle, twist this guy's ankle"

I think they were just emphasizing physical play. Don't be afraid to light someone up. You get fined for sneezing on offenses now. So they basically said ok, we'll put away money as a defense for fines, and accept them and sacrifice some money for physical play.

I don't have a problem with that.
BBD, what you are talking about and what the Saints were actually doing:

Quote:
The league’s release says that the program was administered by former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, and that it included payments not only for fumbles and interceptions but also for inflicting injuries that resulted in players being carried off the field ($1,000) and/or knocked out of the game ($1,500).
Sound quite different. "Inflicting injuries" is unacceptable in today's league.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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I don't care good for them.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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Pretty sure most if not all teams have done this before or are still doing this. Sucks for Saints for being the first ones caught.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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BBD, what you are talking about and what the Saints were actually doing:



Sound quite different. "Inflicting injuries" is unacceptable in today's league.
Yeah but that's a very grey area. He rewarded players for hits. You can light someone up coming up the middle, and it can be perfectly clean and they can leave the game as a result.

Again, it's teaching his guys not to be afraid of hitting guys. I've seen SO many times this year where defenders pulled up on players, because it wasn't worth the 15K fine to them. Players giving up on making plays bc they're afraid of the fine.

Greg rewarded his players for lighting guys up. He didn't make payments for injuries. He rewarded hits. I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Like I said, whenever I saw the Saints play, I never viewed that defense as a dirty defense. They played within the rules.

I think people are overreacting to this.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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Too late. The Patriots already stole it from them.
I should have put that in green font.

Also the players are stupid for doing this. Get $1500 from the team and get a fine for 30 grand from the commissioner's office.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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Yeah but that's a very grey area. He rewarded players for hits. You can light someone up coming up the middle, and it can be perfectly clean and they can leave the game as a result.

Again, it's teaching his guys not to be afraid of hitting guys. I've seen SO many times this year where defenders pulled up on players, because it wasn't worth the 15K fine to them. Players giving up on making plays bc they're afraid of the fine.

Greg rewarded his players for lighting guys up. He didn't make payments for injuries. He rewarded hits. I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Like I said, whenever I saw the Saints play, I never viewed that defense as a dirty defense. They played within the rules.

I think people are overreacting to this.
You need to re-read the article.

The NFL specifically said that Saints defenders were rewarded for knocking opposing players out of the game and/or causing injuries that resulted in opposing players being carted off the field.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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Thanks a lot Williams, you **** sucker.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Damn you, OSU. Damn you.

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The NFL should take away the Saints first round pick for this.
1st round pick! Suspend Sean Payton! Ban Greg Williams! Strip them of their title!





In all seriousness, advocating and paying for other players getting injured sucks. The usual stuff (hitting a guy where you know he's hurt) is fine, but there's definitely a line.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Schefty says the punishement will be worse then what the pats got
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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You need to re-read the article.

The NFL specifically said that Saints defenders were rewarded for knocking opposing players out of the game and/or causing injuries that resulted in opposing players being carted off the field.
Again. Show me where in this statement does it say that they are rewarded for making illegal hits.

There's nothing wrong with hitting someone clean that results in them leaving the game. That's good physical defense. If you come up the middle, and I light up your rib cage the second you catch the ball and you leave the game as a result, that's not a dirty play. That's a good physical play.

Greg didn't openly reward players for hitting guys late, hitting them in the head, hitting them after the whistle.

He rewarded them for good clean hits that resulted in injuries. There's nothing wrong with that. That's good physical defense.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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The NFL should take away the Saints first round pick for this.
Wouldnt be until the 2013 draft because we have their first rounder this year. Unless thats what you were trying to say haha.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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I think this is over the line however at all levels coaches reward people for big hits. You get praised for ear holing a guy. The money thing and breaking it down for knocking guys out is not good. If you are going to do stuff like that don't get caught.

I am sure offensively you can do the same for cut blocks and knowing the DL out with knee injuries. If you are going to do it don't get caught! But breaking it down by money and specifics is new. Never heard of it that detailed and like that before.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Again. Show me where in this statement does it say that they are rewarded for making illegal hits.

There's nothing wrong with hitting someone clean that results in them leaving the game. That's good physical defense. If you come up the middle, and I light up your rib cage the second you catch the ball and you leave the game as a result, that's not a dirty play. That's a good physical play.

Greg didn't openly reward players for hitting guys late, hitting them in the head, hitting them after the whistle.

He rewarded them for good clean hits that resulted in injuries. There's nothing wrong with that. That's good physical defense
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Other than the fact that it is against league policy, no, there is nothing wrong with it.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, if "player's safety" is the number one priority, how is this less severe than Tampering?
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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Other than the fact that it is against league policy, no, there is nothing wrong with it.
How is a clean hit against league policy? So why even have a defense on the field? Put flags on them.

If a defender hits you clean, and you get hurt, that's a good play. If it's a late hit, a blow to the head, a cheap shot to the knees, etc, then no, that's illegal.

But if it's a hit that's within the rules and it results in you leaving the game, that's a good play.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Again. Show me where in this statement does it say that they are rewarded for making illegal hits.

There's nothing wrong with hitting someone clean that results in them leaving the game. That's good physical defense. If you come up the middle, and I light up your rib cage the second you catch the ball and you leave the game as a result, that's not a dirty play. That's a good physical play.

Greg didn't openly reward players for hitting guys late, hitting them in the head, hitting them after the whistle.

He rewarded them for good clean hits that resulted in injuries. There's nothing wrong with that. That's good physical defense.
You're making an awful lot of assumptions. If there are payouts for when opposing players leave the field injured, you are encouraging your players to push the boundaries of legal, if not totally encouraging them to cross that line.
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