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View Poll Results: Who do you like better Upshaw or Ingram?
Courtney Upshaw DE/OLB Alabama 17 30.91%
Melvin Ingram DE/OLB South Carolina 38 69.09%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-12-2012, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Nick Perry over Ingram and Upshaw? Really?
I like Ingram the most of all 3 simply because of his motor and his versatility.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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Courtney Upshaw is Lamar Woodley. Everything voiced in this thread has only confirmed that for me. They're extremely similar in build and playing style, and I imagine Woodley's success will help Upshaw go earlier then he did. I think Upshaw will be an excellent NFL player, but I think he's more of a secondary pass rush guy then a primary. He'll succeed if you put him opposite a more dynamic rusher, IMO.

I have no idea what to do with Ingram. He's just one of those guys who shouldn't be as good at football as he is. Do with it what you will, but he has the ability to make plays and for whatever reason, he's always in the right spot. Instincts and intelligence play a huge role for some teams, but people are right in saying he isn't the explosive athlete you want your edge rusher to be. More fluid in space then he gets credit for though, probably.

Nick Perry reminds me so much of Aldon Smith, who I absolutely hated as a prospect. Unfortunately for me, Smith just had a hell of a rookie campaign so I'm not really sure what to do with Perry. He doesn't have Smith's inside counter, which is his primary move, but he's probably a little more explosive and thick overall but I don't really see that translate to pure power on tape. He's not out there ragdolling defenders like his triangle numbers would lead you to believe. Of these three prospects, he's definitely got the worst tape from this past season IMO, but he's also by far the most impressive physically.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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both of these guys are very risky. Upshaw is 6 feet tall, not that fast or explosive. He is a base end in a 4-3 it looks like, and he is going to be the shortest starter at his position if that is the case. He was not as good of a pass rusher in college as Lamarr Woodley or Brandon Graham. Those were double digit sack guys on a yearly basis in college. Upshaw plays with the best front seven in college football and - while he was a great, disruptive blizter - he was never a pure pass rusher who gets a bunch of sacks in a game like those two Michigan guys or Ryan Kerrigan.

Ingram is short at 6'1" with short arms and a stout build. He looks like a runningback. Not many good pass rushers in the NFL have short arms on the edge. It will be easy for NFL OTs to get to his body and make him a non factor. If he can play linebacker standing up in a 3-4 I think it will mask this deficiency a bit b/c of the way you can disguise the blitz - and Ingram is a guy who can blitz from ILB, DE, OLB, or DT in nickel packages. He was more disruptive of a pure pass rusher (albeit not necessarily from outside, but inside) at Carolina, so I think he's less likely to be a disappointment than Upshaw, but still he's a guy who would go in the mid to late first most years. This isn't a good year for first round DEs at all.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Courtney Upshaw is Lamar Woodley.
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB...c.php?t=439601

According to that, Nick Perry is the Woodley of the bunch (explosion comes out to 1.08 for him).

IIRC, it likes Ingram as well.

Woodley is a lengthier player than Upshaw.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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I don't think it's an either/or with Ingram vs Upshaw. I think both will be solid players in the NFL. One is Adalius Thomas the other is Lamarr Woodley.

Nick Perry can be a poor man's Aldon Smith if you like. All 3 are very good prospects.

but none of them are Demarcus Ware or Von Miller (or even Ryan Kerrigan) and that's why you see the variety of opinions.

None of these guys will be 10+ sack a year, JMO. Upshaw is the safest, Ingram the most versatile and Perry probably the best pure pass rusher and probably the least versatile (straight up 4-3 end) All will be starters none will be pro bowlers.

I'd also throw Mercilus in there. He had a great year.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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I think people drastically overrated Upshaw. He's a guy with average athleticism who played next to 10 other future NFL players. He's stout against the run, but other than that I don't see much. I don't see why he's regarded so high. He's Anthony Spencer. Probably someone who should be about a 3rd rounder but will get pushed up do to lack of players at the position and the new run on pass rushers in today's game.

He really isn't that special.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CDCB14 View Post
I don't see why he's regarded so high. He's Anthony Spencer.
He really isn't that special.
yeah... Anthony Spencer just got franchise tagged.

I think the Upshaw/Spencer comparison is actually a very good one.

The problem here is expectations. People expect every first rounder to be Demarcus Ware and if that doesn't happen it's a bad pick.

I still like Spencer, he's a plus 3-4 OLB starter. these guys are not that easy to find.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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I don't like either guy that much such that, if I were a team in the top 12, I'd feel all that excited or comfortable with one of them as my pick (and I'd put Nick Perry in that mix), but such is this year's draft - after the top 6-8 guys, a ton of guys are lumped closely together.

First, let me get my bias out of the way. If I needed a 4-3 end or a 3-4 OLB, I take Cam Johnson of UVA in the 2nd round and address another need first. I just don't see the huge gap between Johnson and the aforementioned 3, particularly as a 3-4 OLB (since Johnson has played that role before). If I'm drafting a 3-4 OLB, I ask Johnson to slim down some more (or to bulk down a bit and become leaner), to say, 260.

Leaving that aside, I can't help but get the feeling that Courtney Upshaw is more of a Greg Spires type if asked to be a 4-3 end, a power base guy with some pass rush ability. I'm just not sure I see elite pass rushing, multiple 8+ sacks/year type of ability. His lower body power and ability to leverage seems ideal against powerful right tackles. I think he can play as a 3-4 OLB, but it would be more on the strong side, and even then, you'd want to make sure that he had help in coverage (even then, if I'm an opposing OC with a good receiving TE that is athletic, I run directly at Ingram all day and night).

Ingram's main issue is his arm length, but guys have succeeded with short arms. It'll take Ingram maxing out on everything else (being better in his technique, being better in his reads) to compensate for some of his physical deficiencies. Ideally, you wouldn't take a short-armed pass rusher THAT high, but drafts aren't ideal. I think Ingram is far more versatile than Upshaw, as I think you can swing him inside on dime sets, play him on the weak and strong sides in a 4-3 and a 3-4, and I think he can be asked to be a short zone cover guy (actually, the guy he sort of reminds me of ... and this is going to sound odd ... but he sort of reminds me of Tedy Bruschi ... more athletic than Bruschi ever was, though, and a bigger frame than Bruschi).

I like Ingram, but the physical deficiencies make it tough for me to love him as a top 12 pick.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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I like Ingram, but the physical deficiencies make it tough for me to love him as a top 12 pick.
generally agree but then again the Jags could do anything picking at 7.

I could see them valuing an Ingram or Upshaw over a Coples for football reasons.

They always "reach" and don't really care what anyone thinks about it.

There's a compelling case for Ingram/Upshaw as a poor man's Orakpo, standing up in a 4-3 on 1st/2nd down and hang in the dirt on 3rd down.
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:38 AM    (permalink
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I like Ingram more, he's proven to be at least a motor guy who will work to get better and he can be drafted by any team to play a bunch of different positions, I would think he'd find a role somewhere.

I agree he's a 2nd rounder in any other class, that tells you how I feel about Upshaw. Good pass-rusher on a great defense but he was supposed to be the top 3-4 OLB of the class and he's somehow proven incapable of playing the position at the next level, and that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm not really sure about him being any more than a situational DE in a 4-3. I have no idea where he'll be drafted, he could go top-10 or somewhere outside of the 1st, I'm just personally not high on him.
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