Randy Moss vs Calvin Johnson

[Brothgar]

Originally Posted by yo123

The only thread of Randy vs. anyone that has any merit is Randy vs. Jerry. Moss vs. Calvin Johnson? Seriously? Were you born in the 2000's?

No I was born in 1983 but the obvious question becomes intangibles vs pure talent. Randy has three times quit on his franchise. Calvin hasn't. Both are damn near unstoppable. Randy takes too many plays off. Sure when he's trying he can be the best ever but lose a couple of games and you got problems in the locker room. People act like this is an easy question because they remember his great years and forget his crappy years.

[BandwagonPunditry]

Originally Posted by broth223

No I was born in 1983 but the obvious question becomes intangibles vs pure talent. Randy has three times quit on his franchise. Calvin hasn't. Both are damn near unstoppable. Randy takes too many plays off. Sure when he's trying he can be the best ever but lose a couple of games and you got problems in the locker room. People act like this is an easy question because they remember his great years and forget his crappy years.

True, but 'who's the best player?' and 'in their prime' mean you just take each at their very best, not their crappy periods, and Moss at his very best is ridiculous.

[Brothgar]

Originally Posted by BandwagonPunditry

True, but 'who's the best player?' and 'in their prime' mean you just take each at their very best, not their crappy periods, and Moss at his very best is ridiculous.

Ha good point. I guess I was thinking prime physically not mentally.

[WCH]

This is how I view it, based on their prime seasons:

1. Jerry Rice
2. Don Hutson
3. Randy Moss (even if he was a slacker)

[...]

Everybody Else

[Taber21]

I understand the Hutson argument, his numbers when no one else could come close. It was almost like Babe Ruth hitting more home runs in one season than some teams did. The problem is he was playing in an era where no one could/tried to stop the deep ball because so few could actually do it. Not saying he is not one of the greatest WR's of all time, personally I find it difficult to put him that high, but can see why others would.

[Brent]

I am stupid and read this as a "right now" question, fwiw.

[WCH]

Originally Posted by Taber21

I understand the Hutson argument, his numbers when no one else could come close. It was almost like Babe Ruth hitting more home runs in one season than some teams did. The problem is he was playing in an era where no one could/tried to stop the deep ball because so few could actually do it. Not saying he is not one of the greatest WR's of all time, personally I find it difficult to put him that high, but can see why others would.

I share your reservations. Another strike against him is the fact that some of his best seasons were during WWII, when many of the other elite athletes of his generation were off at war. Nevertheless, he was the first modern WR. Tall, fluid, and he had blazing speed; plus he is often credited with inventing the modern pass route (which I think he gets major bonus points for).

He's a lot like Otto Graham, in the sense that it's hard to rank him as an all-time great because he had advantages that other players at the position didn't have at the time (Hutson being the first to run modern pass routes, Graham being, I believe, the first to have a modern pocket to pass from). Nevertheless, if I had to rank players by position, I would put both in the top-5 respectively, due to their early contributions to the passing game.

[WinslowBodden]

If I can't get to it, ain't nobody can get to it.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Originally Posted by Brent

I am stupid and read this as a "right now" question, fwiw.

Well, to be fair, the poll says "Who is better?" and that question, in that tense, is repeated in the first line of the post.

[Rosebud]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

I won't diss Moss but his personality is a big turn off.

If either catches the ball behind any corner it's a quick six.
Size and strength allow CJ to do some things that Randy couldn't like break tackles. But Moss was still quicker and a tick faster than Megatron.

I think people forget that although Randy Moss was 6'4, he had the quickness and footspeed of a six foot slot WR. He left a lot of people grasping air with his lateral movement, and his vertical speed...@!

Honestly I see more in common between TO and Megatron in their primes than Moss and Calvin Johnson. It's hard to compare anyone to Moss physically.

You're hinting at another aspect of Randy's game that gets over looked because there were routes he just didn't run, but Randy was a brilliant route runner with the ones he did. He was just amazing at using his body position to set CBs up before turning on the jets and leaving them in his dust. The man was also a really smart football player which is why he was so amazing running the Pats option-heavy route-tree.

[Rosebud]

Originally Posted by broth223

No I was born in 1983 but the obvious question becomes intangibles vs pure talent. Randy has three times quit on his franchise. Calvin hasn't. Both are damn near unstoppable. Randy takes too many plays off. Sure when he's trying he can be the best ever but lose a couple of games and you got problems in the locker room. People act like this is an easy question because they remember his great years and forget his crappy years.

That has nothing to do with who was better at their peak, since those times when Randy quit on his teams where not obviously times where he was not playing at his peak.

[J52]

Originally Posted by WCH

This is how I view it, based on their prime seasons:

1. Jerry Rice
2. Don Hutson
3. Randy Moss (even if he was a slacker)

[...]

Everybody Else

Does anybody else hate Don Hutson as much as me?

A. He played at a time where double coverage was unheard of and not used. Put one slow, white CB on most NFL receivers nowadays throughout their careers and they would set the all time TD record too.

B. He played at a time where the talent level was 1/12th of what it was now. There was racial segregation at this time. It was 11 white guys vs 11 white guys. I don't think Don Hutson's team would win the 6a Florida high school championship nowadays.

C. Nobody alive today is both old enough to have watched him play AND non-senile. So every single person claiming his ability is based purely on stats and hearsay.

[Nalej]

Originally Posted by J52

Does anybody else hate Don Hutson as much as me?

A. He played at a time where double coverage was unheard of and not used. Put one slow, white CB on most NFL receivers nowadays throughout their careers and they would set the all time TD record too.

B. He played at a time where the talent level was 1/12th of what it was now. There was racial segregation at this time. It was 11 white guys vs 11 white guys. I don't think Don Hutson's team would win the 6a Florida high school championship nowadays.

C. Nobody alive today is both old enough to have watched him play AND non-senile. So every single person claiming his ability is based purely on stats and hearsay.

Do you hate Babe Ruth as well then? George Mikan?

[WCH]

Originally Posted by J52

Does anybody else hate Don Hutson as much as me?

A. He played at a time where double coverage was unheard of and not used.

He's the primary reason that teams began using double coverage. You can find film of him beating crude forms of double coverage as far back as his college days at Alabama, in the 1930s.

[ATLDirtyBirds]

Originally Posted by yo123

The only thread of Randy vs. anyone that has any merit is Randy vs. Jerry. Moss vs. Calvin Johnson? Seriously? Were you born in the 2000's?

This. And that thread basically goes:

Randy=Most dominant.
Rice= Best.

[Steady Lurkin]

Originally Posted by J52

Does anybody else hate Don Hutson as much as me?

A. He played at a time where double coverage was unheard of and not used. Put one slow, white CB on most NFL receivers nowadays throughout their careers and they would set the all time TD record too.

B. He played at a time where the talent level was 1/12th of what it was now. There was racial segregation at this time. It was 11 white guys vs 11 white guys. I don't think Don Hutson's team would win the 6a Florida high school championship nowadays.

C. Nobody alive today is both old enough to have watched him play AND non-senile. So every single person claiming his ability is based purely on stats and hearsay.

And a shithead high schooler today knows more things than Galileo did. Does that make him smarter than Galileo?

Everything is relative.

[K Train]

if calvin has 25 TDs next season then everyone will change their mind completely.

2 years ago aaron rodgers wasnt the best, theres actually a thread saying how much better philip rivers is than rodgers. everyone seems to change their mind pretty quickly when it comes to rankings. this isnt really an argument because moss has been ont he downside of his career for years, while we dont even know if calvin has started his "prime" yet, he may have or he may not have. imo the only think moss has unquestioned over calvin is early success

[Complex]

Calvin benefited the lock out and all these new rules. There was like 3 QB's that passed for 5,000 and like 3 others that were had 4,500 yards last year. I think Randy Moss could of score over 20 TDs last season.

[Halsey]

Who cares how good Moss was a decade ago? Right now he has no business sharing a thread with Calvin Johnson.

[Iamcanadian]

Moss was always a one trick pony for the most part, defeating teams on deep patterns but never a great route runner and hardly a great team player.

Johnson can do it all and will have a far more productive career than Moss and with Stafford throwing him the ball, career TD receptions by a WR will be challenged for sure.

[niel89]

I don't care if you call him a one trick pony, it was the greatest one trick of any wr ever.

[WCH]

Originally Posted by niel89

I don't care if you call him a one trick pony, it was the greatest one trick of any wr ever.

I was going to say, he was pretty damn good at that one trick.

[Crazy_Chris]

Originally Posted by Halsey

Who cares how good Calvin Johnson is right now? He has no business sharing a thread with Randy Moss.

Fixed that for you

[FUNBUNCHER]

Originally Posted by Complex

Calvin benefited the lock out and all these new rules. There was like 3 QB's that passed for 5,000 and like 3 others that were had 4,500 yards last year. I think Randy Moss could of score over 20 TDs last season.

We already saw what Randy Moss can do under more restrictive rules against DBs in 2007 when he was a part of the Pats undefeated regular season team.
But we also saw in the playoffs and SB if you can pressure his QB and double Moss on 2 deep coverage, he can be negated.

Megatron is unique because with his size/strength/speed, he can take an intermediate route, break the tackle from a safety or corner and go 70 yards for the score.

Like someone else said, I think Calvin is only going to get better and when the Lions develop a serious threat at #2 opposite him and get that running game in gear, I think he has the potential to be the first WR to break 2K receiving yards.


You can argue Moss is the better pure talent, but if you ask most fans who they'd want on their team for 16 games and in the lockerroom, it would be Megatron in a walk.

Recall that no matter how great Randy Moss may have been, no NFL team was ever going to pay him the cushion CJ just signed with the Lions.

Matter of fact, was Moss at any time during his career the highest paid WR in the league?? I think his rookie contract was the most money he ever signed for in the NFL.

[WCH]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

Matter of fact, was Moss at any time during his career the highest paid WR in the league?? I think his rookie contract was the most money he ever signed for in the NFL.

Not true. Remember, he fell to the 20th pick in the draft, and his rookie deal only averaged about $2 Million per year. Also, he became the highest paid WR in the NFL when he signed his 8 year, $75 Million deal (2001?).