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Old 03-16-2012, 01:14 PM    (permalink
A Perfect Score
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
No mention of the fact that Solder kind of sucked last year? I mean, he was raw and wasn't even supposed to be on the field, but he was bad more often than not when I saw him.

I recall in the Ravens playoff game for instance, Paul Kruger using him like a turnstyle on 2 straight plays. And Paul Kruger is nothing special.

Hopefully he improves but seriously, a LOT of people were wary of him in the draft for these reasons. I didn't even have him as a first rounder.
That's a bit of an understatement. He's been an extremely large disappointment to date, in fact.
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:20 PM    (permalink
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I noticed that 95% of us are unhappy with our teams offensive lines. I think literally only 2 or 3 teams' fans are pleased with their olines, the rest of us kill our lines bc we have unrealistic expectations of them.
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:23 PM    (permalink
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Bucs:

LT: Donald Penn
LG: Carl Nicks :)
C: Jeremy Zuttah
RG: Davin Joseph
RT: Jeremy Trueblood

Consists of 3 Pro Bowlers in Joseph (2), Penn (1), and Nicks (3), with Nicks a 2 time All Pro. Zuttah's best position is Center, where he's been above average there when filling in for Faine each season. Trueblood is average, has the potential to be better, but is probably our weakest option.

I think Penn/Nicks/Joseph will make Trueblood perform and work harder, along with Zuttah.

I'd rank our line in the top 10 now.
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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My $.02 for ze Bengs.

LT- Andrew Whitworth-- One of the most well rounded LTs in the league, his strength is in the run game but he also excels in pass pro as well. Underrated to an extent but starting to get some of the credit he's deserved for a few years now. Best player on our line without question and could be an All-Pro caliber guard for us if we needed it.

LG- Vacant now due to the loss of Nate Livings. I'd assume Clint Boling would be penciled in as the starter at the moment. I think he could be a good starter in this league but I'd definitely like to see him have at least another year of seasoning. Needs to get stronger in the run game from what I saw last year but he does have some ability. Could start here or at RG depending on what we do in the draft/free agency.

C- Kyle Cook-- Solid player who seems to catch a lot of flak around these parts but is generally not a liability in any one aspect though he does seem to have a bit of trouble with some of the NTs in the 3-4, especially in our division. That can be one of the toughest types of players to block especially with having to block them nearly one handed initially so I give him the benefit of the doubt. I think it's more the Guard's fault generally when a NT is making plays on us.

RG- Vacant as of right now the only other Guard on our roster is Otis Hudson who has never seen the field from what I remember. Were definitely gonna have to draft at least one and hopefully this spot is occupied by either David DeCastro or Kordy Glenn next year.

RT- Andre Smith-- Has steadily improved with more playing time to the point where I think he can be a damn good RT for us for many years. A force in the run game with ample skills to be an effective pass protector as well. Really hope he can stay healthy/keep his head on straight and continue to develop into the type of stud we all know he can be. Would like to see him get re-signed to a multi-year incentive laden contract after this year. I've always been a bit of an Andre Smith homer but he really seemed to put it all together this year.

IMO Guard is the biggest need on this entire team bar none. If we come out of the draft with DeCastro or Glenn I will be ecstatic. I'm expecting us to sign a Guard in free agency as well but it seems like some slim pickins now.
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I noticed that 95% of us are unhappy with our teams offensive lines. I think literally only 2 or 3 teams' fans are pleased with their olines, the rest of us kill our lines bc we have unrealistic expectations of them.
It's cause we're football nerds, we all love great OL play and want our teams to have dominant OLs, so when we don't we're disappointed...kinda like you're going to be when Beatty starts this season, does a pretty solid job against the passrush but gets pushed around in the running game.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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Well this is true also. I'd rather have him on the bench.
He really wasn't terrible in pass pro. Yeah he was unbelievably weak in the running game but he's done an ok job before when fully healthy. Staying healthy and keeping his weight up have unfortunately been massive problems for him. I don't expect him to be anything more than mediocre overall next year, but I do think he'll be not-pathetic in the running game, especially if Petrus wins the LG spot and plays next to him.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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LT: Will Beatty/Diehl
LG: Kevin Boothe/Mitch Petrus
C: Davis Baas/Boothe
RG: Chris Snee/Mitch Petrus
RT: David Diehl/James Brewer

This is how I expect the opening day lineup to be.
Seems about right. Would love to see us draft Glenn, Adams or Osemele and for Petrus to beat out Bootie, but otherwise I think you're right.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:25 PM    (permalink
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i'm with giants fans, I'd love an upgrade over Beatty and I'm content with Diehl starting on either side.

Also, I LOVE the Bucs oline. Love it
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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i'm with giants fans, I'd love an upgrade over Beatty and I'm content with Diehl starting on either side.

Also, I LOVE the Bucs oline. Love it
It really bums me out he never managed to just add that extra 10-15 pounds of muscle he'd need to be able to assert himself in the running game. He was a great run blocker in college where guys weren't big and strong enough to just bull rush right through him. He's got good burst out of his stance, moves his feet well, gets those long arms in on defenders and just doesn't have the raw strength to hold up at this level. I really had high hopes for him when we got him, especially with how long the guy is I thought bulking up wouldn't be a problem with NFL S&C.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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Right now the Bills offensive line looks like this heading into next season.

LT: ???/Chris Hairston
LG: Andy Levitre
C: Eric Wood
RG: Kraig Urbik
RT: Erik Pears

Demetrius Bell was the original starter at LT last season but was injured for a lot of the season, and when he went down is when the offense started to slow down because the Bills had to keep Fred Jackson in as a 6th blocker instead of using him as a receiver on most passing plays. At this point, the Bills will either re-sign Bell, or they will probably draft a LT like Reiff at 10 in the first round. Hairston and Chad Rinehart are solid depth players who together can basically take over as injury replacements for all 5 positions on the line which is great.

The Bills offensive line was actually really solid last year, and probably top 10 before Wood and Bell got injured. Wood and Bell are among the better players at their respective positions and both are highly versatile. A lot of the lines effectiveness could probably be attributed to Gailey's scheme that spreads defenses out to open big running lanes, and the passing game that runs a looooooot of shotgun sets and Fitzpatrick getting the ball out quickly. Either way, its a scheme that doesn't demand top notch, big contract blockers which is why I'd rather see them re-sign Bell and just accept his susceptibility to injuries and have faith in Hairston's abilities as a backup and then go after Floyd in the 1st round this year instead of having to pick Reiff or Martin.
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:51 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I noticed that 95% of us are unhappy with our teams offensive lines. I think literally only 2 or 3 teams' fans are pleased with their olines, the rest of us kill our lines bc we have unrealistic expectations of them.

These things go in cycles but right now I would say in the league there is a definite shortage of good OL and safeties.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:04 AM    (permalink
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Well its also on OL you are as weak as your weakest link. That is why there is a shortage cause you simply can't have at least average guys on each position on each team. Besides that with the more and more athletic pass rushers the older C's and G's are having more and more trouble holding it up with just their technique and mental strengths.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:24 AM    (permalink
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I definitely disagree about there being a shortage of offensive line talent in the league right now. Just look at how many LT's there are in the league alone, supposedly the hardest position on the line to fill. The problem people on this board seem to have is that they fail to recognize that there are certain guys that you just can't shut down. Sam Baker at some point in a game will get abused by JPP, Jared Allen, Demarcus Ware, etc. but so would pretty much every offensive lineman on every team in every generation of the NFL ever.

I also think the fact that teams are passing more now hurts the perception of a lot of offensive lines, especially with the WCO falling out of favour and a lot more teams using plays that take longer to develop with deeper drops for under center. I don't think its a coincidence that teams that run the ball the most are the ones viewed as having the more talented and/or successful offensive lines. Among passing teams, I also don't think its much of a coincidence that teams that like to spread things out like the Saints and Patriots have a lot of success up front as well. I mentioned it in my post about the Bills, but looking at their lineup most people would say it has to be one of the least talented in the league, but they performed like a top unit in large part because of the scheme that Gailey runs.
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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I noticed that 95% of us are unhappy with our teams offensive lines. I think literally only 2 or 3 teams' fans are pleased with their olines, the rest of us kill our lines bc we have unrealistic expectations of them.
You'll note that I'm in the legitimate portion with realistic expectations yet I still hate my o-line. You would too.

If there is someone out there who would trade your line for the Bears line, you let me know so I can laugh.
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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Cleveland has one elite offensive lineman, one very good, two unknown/sucky, and one position with absolutely no one.
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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I noticed that 95% of us are unhappy with our teams offensive lines. I think literally only 2 or 3 teams' fans are pleased with their olines, the rest of us kill our lines bc we have unrealistic expectations of them.
Because fans typically rarely notice when an offensive lineman is doing his job well, but ALWAYS notice when an offensive lineman screws up. On a play where a QB throws into double coverage and results in a pick, the OL could have performed great but no one notices because of the result of the play.

Same with safeties, which is why every fanbase thinks they have awful safeties. You don't see 50% of their good plays (which result in opposing QBs throwing away from their coverage/incomplete pass/etc.). You just see them get beat.

Also, OL and DBs are going up against the best athletes on the field - DL and WR. And for different reasons, those positions have unique advantages over their opponents. For DL, they are more fresh and have more freedom to freelance in order to get over on their opponents. For WR, they simply know where they are going while DBs are reacting.

I find it funny how quick fans are to say "_______ sucks" or "is worthless" because they've seen him get beat and then wonder why the guy plays or gets signed as a FA.

Playing OL and DB is extremely difficult because of their opponents and the nature of their assignments, and thankless because television broadcasts do not typically highlight performances of OL and DB unless they provide a certain type of entertainment value or you get lucky and they show a replay or circle a pulling guard. They'll never just show you a guard doing his job on a typical 5-step drop incompletion. Or a safety getting over quick enough in C2 to make the QB go to his next read.
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Because fans typically rarely notice when an offensive lineman is doing his job well, but ALWAYS notice when an offensive lineman screws up. On a play where a QB throws into double coverage and results in a pick, the OL could have performed great but no one notices because of the result of the play.

Same with safeties, which is why every fanbase thinks they have awful safeties. You don't see 50% of their good plays (which result in opposing QBs throwing away from their coverage/incomplete pass/etc.). You just see them get beat.

Also, OL and DBs are going up against the best athletes on the field - DL and WR. And for different reasons, those positions have unique advantages over their opponents. For DL, they are more fresh and have more freedom to freelance in order to get over on their opponents. For WR, they simply know where they are going while DBs are reacting.

I find it funny how quick fans are to say "_______ sucks" or "is worthless" because they've seen him get beat and then wonder why the guy plays or gets signed as a FA.

Playing OL and DB is extremely difficult because of their opponents and the nature of their assignments, and thankless because television broadcasts do not typically highlight performances of OL and DB unless they provide a certain type of entertainment value or you get lucky and they show a replay or circle a pulling guard. They'll never just show you a guard doing his job on a typical 5-step drop incompletion. Or a safety getting over quick enough in C2 to make the QB go to his next read.
Yup. And I think offenses are at a significant disadvantage for one simple reason: On every play, you must have 5 OL lineup in the same general positions. I'm actually going to make a thread on this, defenses have figured out another fundamental flaw of offenses. Buddy Ryan was the first to figure out that the defense has the offense outnumbered, but now defenses figured out another flaw: You must keep 5 OL in to block every play. So if you send 5 guys from one side against 3 OL bc the other 2 are completely away from the blitz, you outnumber the pass protection.

And I don't care if you have the 90s Cowboys as your oline, when you scheme it up like that on defense, no OL is going to block that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
I definitely disagree about there being a shortage of offensive line talent in the league right now. Just look at how many LT's there are in the league alone, supposedly the hardest position on the line to fill. The problem people on this board seem to have is that they fail to recognize that there are certain guys that you just can't shut down. Sam Baker at some point in a game will get abused by JPP, Jared Allen, Demarcus Ware, etc. but so would pretty much every offensive lineman on every team in every generation of the NFL ever.

I also think the fact that teams are passing more now hurts the perception of a lot of offensive lines, especially with the WCO falling out of favour and a lot more teams using plays that take longer to develop with deeper drops for under center. I don't think its a coincidence that teams that run the ball the most are the ones viewed as having the more talented and/or successful offensive lines. Among passing teams, I also don't think its much of a coincidence that teams that like to spread things out like the Saints and Patriots have a lot of success up front as well. I mentioned it in my post about the Bills, but looking at their lineup most people would say it has to be one of the least talented in the league, but they performed like a top unit in large part because of the scheme that Gailey runs.
Yup ^ I agree with all of it.

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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
You'll note that I'm in the legitimate portion with realistic expectations yet I still hate my o-line. You would too.

If there is someone out there who would trade your line for the Bears line, you let me know so I can laugh.
Yeah, there are fan bases that have a legit reason to hate their OL. The Bears are clearly one of those teams.

But you look at a team ilke the Packers, like the Patriots, like the Giants, like the Cowboys, all these teams have average to below average OLs but still put up points, and are great offenses. You have to understand as a fan that there's a give and take, you can't have it all. As long as you score points successfully, you're ok on the OL.

Your OL is gonna give up pressures, it's going to give up sacks. It happens. But if your offense is scoring points at a very efficient pace like the above stated teams, then your OL is doing their job.

I'm fine with our OL, as long as Beatty doesn't start. The rest of it is perfectly fine with me. It's mediocre, but it's good enough.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:17 AM    (permalink
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For the Panthers:

LT: Gross
LG: ?
C: Kalil
RG: ?
RT: ?

Hangartner is probably going to start at one of the G positions. Theoretically Otah is going to start at RT, but he's missed the last two seasons with injuries. Bell started all last season at RT and did ok - so he could be plugged in somewhere along the line too.

Basically the Panthers O-line is up in the air at the moment. Newton makes them look much better than they actually are due to his mobility.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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For The Chiefs:

LT: Albert
LG: Lilja
C: Hudson
RG: Asamoah
RT: Winston
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
Right now the Bills offensive line looks like this heading into next season.

LT: ???/Chris Hairston
LG: Andy Levitre
C: Eric Wood
RG: Kraig Urbik
RT: Erik Pears

Demetrius Bell was the original starter at LT last season but was injured for a lot of the season, and when he went down is when the offense started to slow down because the Bills had to keep Fred Jackson in as a 6th blocker instead of using him as a receiver on most passing plays. At this point, the Bills will either re-sign Bell, or they will probably draft a LT like Reiff at 10 in the first round. Hairston and Chad Rinehart are solid depth players who together can basically take over as injury replacements for all 5 positions on the line which is great.

The Bills offensive line was actually really solid last year, and probably top 10 before Wood and Bell got injured. Wood and Bell are among the better players at their respective positions and both are highly versatile. A lot of the lines effectiveness could probably be attributed to Gailey's scheme that spreads defenses out to open big running lanes, and the passing game that runs a looooooot of shotgun sets and Fitzpatrick getting the ball out quickly. Either way, its a scheme that doesn't demand top notch, big contract blockers which is why I'd rather see them re-sign Bell and just accept his susceptibility to injuries and have faith in Hairston's abilities as a backup and then go after Floyd in the 1st round this year instead of having to pick Reiff or Martin.
This is from a poster on another board and he put it better than I ever could:

Quote:
It's been discussed at length, and even backed up by Nix & Gailey, that the lack of sacks against vs this O-line is system based. They had to get rid of the ball quickly because the protection was not consistent on 5 & 7 step drops. Nix said they want to evolve the offense to take more chances down the field and they can not do this with the current tackles.

The rushing game was good because this offense led the league in 3 WR (or more) sets, when you are spread out that much you're only going to face 5-6 defenders in the box the majority of a game. It's easy to run vs Nickle & Dime defenses.

Offensive lineman can come in right away and play and the Bills HAVE to have someone to come in right away and play. If they believe that there is a guy there at 10 that can come in and play and protect Fitz's blind side they have to pull the trigger on him.

The LT has a huge void right now and going back to Bell is not a viable option. Gailey himself says that they're not sure that Hariston can get to the point where he can play out there full time. They say he has potential to do so but he's not there yet.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:58 AM    (permalink
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Cowboys

LT: Tyron Smith
LG: Mackenze Bernadaeu/David Arkin
C: Phil Costa/Kevin Kowalski
RG: Nate Livings/Bill Nagy
RT: Doug Free/Jeremy Parnell

We're pretty much set at Tackle but the interior is a question mark. Arkin was a 4th Round pick last year from a small school that basically redshirted last season but hopefully he's developed enough to the point where he can compete for a job in TC. If not, we replaced aging veterans Kosier, Holland and Dockery with Livings and Bernadaeu who will be given an opportunity to earn a starting spot. Center is probably the biggest need as Phil Costa was an abomination last year as starter and Kowalski is nothing to get get excited about as an UDFA.

Last edited by TheFinisher : 03-18-2012 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:52 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by T-RICH49 View Post
For The Chiefs:

LT: Albert
LG: Lilja
C: Hudson
RG: Asamoah
RT: Winston
if it were up to me, we'd take DeCastro @ #11 and he would take Liljas place at LG. That would be an elite line for at least 5 years
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by A Perfect Score View Post
That's a bit of an understatement. He's been an extremely large disappointment to date, in fact.
extremely large disappointment to date? I could understand this comment if it was made last year but Kruger just came off his best season of his career(5.5 sacks as a situational pass rusher, not bad for someone who half the fan-base wrote off) and was a large part of the reason why we let Jarret Johnson go.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFinisher View Post
Cowboys

LT: Tyron Smith
LG: Mackenze Bernadaeu/David Arkin
C: Phil Costa/Kevin Kowalski
RG: Nate Livings/Bill Nagy
RT: Doug Free/Jeremy Parnell

We're pretty much set at Tackle but the interior is a question mark. Arkin was a 4th Round pick last year from a small school that basically redshirted last season but hopefully he's developed enough to the point where he can compete for a job in TC. If not, we replaced aging veterans Kosier, Holland and Dockery with Livings and Bernadaeu who will be given an opportunity to earn a starting spot. Center is probably the biggest need as Phil Costa was an abomination last year as starter and Kowalski is nothing to get get excited about as an UDFA.


Just to piggy back off you a little, this is the reason why DeCastro isn't making it anywhere past 14, if he's even there at that point.


Tyron played excellent. He had his rookie moments when he was beat but he was a rock out there and played a majority of the season at 20 years old. Held his weight up, and showed much better strength then expected. His feet were as advertised, the move to LT will be seamless as he was made to play on that side.


Doug Free had a big drop off season. Most think he had bigger back problems then he let on, because his play from 2010 and 2011 wasn't even close. His move back to RT will do him some good, he just doesn't have the feet on the left side to stick with the elite pass rushers.



Right now our interior line is a big question mark. We don't have anyone that is going to be a sure fire good player across the board there, which is why DeCastro makes everyone else slide in much better.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 03-18-2012, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post
Raiders
LT - Veldheer
LG - Wisniewski (could/should move to center)
C - None under contract.
RG - None under contract.
RT - Barksdale, Bruce Campbell


Neither Barksdale nor Campbell has given any indication that they can contribute, let alone start.

It's been reported that the Raiders have no interest in bringing Satele back.

Going zone heavy should make the line easier to rebuild, but make no mistake. This O-line is getting a reboot. Jared Veldheer is the only guy all but assured to maintain his position. Wiz II will start, but where remains to be seen. The other 3/5 of the line is completely up in the air, and none of those 3 appear to be on the current roster.

Mark Brisiel of the Texans is supposed to be coming in to talk. He should secure one guard spot, durability issues not withstanding.

As of right now, there are only two viable offensive linemen on the roster. Two entrenched starters and nonexistent depth. Scary.

As bad as the defense was last year, it may well have to take a back seat to the retooling of the O-line. We can't leave our INT prone QB and brittle RB hung out to dry.
I'll update this.

Raiders
LT - Veldheer
LG - None under contract.
C -Wisniewski (could/should move to center)
RG - Brisiel
RT - Barksdale, Bruce Campbell

The expectation is that Barksdale will fill one of these slots--probably RT at the time. Campbell may slide into a guard spot, but who knows. At this point in time, the Raiders need at LEAST one more lineman who you can really count on. Then they need another 2 or 3 linemen to provide depth. If that means a stud RT and moving Barksdale inside, that will do. Otherwise, Raiders need to make another signing at OG.
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