Dallas Cowboys Discussion - Page 1049

thule · 03-20-2012, 11:41 AM

The thing is about all the mocks that have us drafting DeCastro is the biggest reason the draft is such a crapshoot. They aren't mocking off of any real inside information unless your last name is Gosselin. They are taking player values and assigning them to team needs. DeCastro happens to be rated pretty standard as a top 12 prospect. We have interior Ol needs and he falls so they match is made in heaven.

Like we have all stated in here this is a deep draft for interior Ol. You should be able to find a starter in the top half of the draft if you dig deep enough rounds 1-4.

The question we need to ask is what positions can make an immediate impact on our team this year and then weight it against the value of those positions in each round.

I know I've came across this article before that shows the % chance a position has at starting depend on which round he was drafted. +rep to anyone that finds it before me. We can use that to narrow down this list of names.

thule · 03-20-2012, 11:46 AM

Also another good conversation topic.

If you are on the draft DeCastro bandwagon. What are your next 2 picks. It's easy to say we should pick DeCastro because the pick has value and he's a top tier talent. But does that cost us by not drafting with the flow of the draft. We essentially take out the position where we can find an upgrade later in the draft. Something that smart teams would shy away from. We aren't in a position where we NEED anything so I don't think that argument really holds weight this year.

pocketaces · 03-20-2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thule

The thing is about all the mocks that have us drafting DeCastro is the biggest reason the draft is such a crapshoot. They aren't mocking off of any real inside information unless your last name is Gosselin. They are taking player values and assigning them to team needs. DeCastro happens to be rated pretty standard as a top 12 prospect. We have interior Ol needs and he falls so they match is made in heaven.

Like we have all stated in here this is a deep draft for interior Ol. You should be able to find a starter in the top half of the draft if you dig deep enough rounds 1-4.

The question we need to ask is what positions can make an immediate impact on our team this year and then weight it against the value of those positions in each round.

I know I've came across this article before that shows the % chance a position has at starting depend on which round he was drafted. +rep to anyone that finds it before me. We can use that to narrow down this list of names.

Is this it?

http://footballoutsiders.com/nfl-dra...draft-position

D-Unit · 03-20-2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor

LOL D nice spin on your reply.

Our offense produced points and therefore our offensive line is great! Hyperbole is silly just like the JPP argument. Our interior offensive line got BULLIED and it prevented us from running our offense.

The fact we have ELITE talent at skill positions and still put up points with a ****** interior line doesn't mean we should expect Romo to houdini his way around interior pass rushers every time. Same with Murray it's a roll of the dice as to whether he'll have a running lane and most of the time he'll need to bounce outside because we have zero interior push. Scroll back to all of your posts diagramming our STRUGGLES with interior push and it was crippling our goal line and short-yardage ability.

As I said revisionist history at its finest. You complained all season about our interior line and now because PFF said so it's no longer a major need...:P Funny in that you criticized others on this board for using PFF to make decisions during the season O_o

As far as value I 100% agree. I see two prospect WORTH the #14 and fit a supposed "need".

1) DeCastro (I don't care if he's a guard he's an elite prospect and better than Iupati whom Dallas tried to trade up for)

2) Ingram

I think Coples, Brockers, Cox, Poe, and Kirkpatrick will all be drafted well above their values.

I think you are taking the intent of my post in the wrong way. I can sense the tension mounting, and I don't really care to go there with you so let me try to be a little clearer.

Those PFF stats only indicated that we were an average OL last year. This was eye opening to me because I could've sworn we'd be ranked at the bottom. I think anytime you receive new information that you are allowed to change your views. So if it means being inconsistent with the past, then there's nothing wrong with that, imo. I think anyone can agree with that.

That said, I've never felt at ANY moment in time that this was an OL that didn't need upgrades. While not as bad as I initially thought, there was no time where I thought we'd be ok staying with the same personnel. NEVER.

Once FA opened, I have to admit... Our front office did a surgical like job at coordinating, pin pointing and signing their targets. They seemed to know exactly who they wanted, how much they wanted to spend on them, and went out and got em all in impressive fashion.

I can't sit here and say I'm a fan of Livings, and I can't say that I'm confident about our OL to the point where I feel they can be one of the best in the league. I don't even know if Livings and Bernadeau will be an immediate upgrade over Holland and Kosier to be honest. However, I do feel good about them being upgrades in terms of youth, health/durability, future promise and better fits in regards to the future direction of the OL. This is not a push button solution. We need to realize that it's gonna be a process and year 1 is not going to be picture perfect. But the beauty of it is, that with this kind of rehaul, that we can finally start to build long term stability and cohesiveness that can turn this unit into a long term effective solution.

So when you combine our FA efforts to fix the OL, the fact that our offense wasn't the main problem despite the weak interior, the fact they put up a lot of points, the idea that we weren't as bad as some (including myself thought), the fact that this is a deep draft for OG, the fact that we have pressing needs to repair a defense that couldn't hold big leads in the 4th quarter, the fact that it's not a wise cap solution to spend that pick on OG...I could probably go on and on... but all that combined together makes me think that using the 14th pick on OG isn't in our best interests. Regardless if that OG happens to be BPA.

Besides, BPA is such a fickle label. You can't look back at any draft in any year and pin point for a fact that you got the BPA when you're picking in the middle of round 1. BPA is a term mock drafters and draft niks use to justify rankings, but the reality is that it's different for everyone because the judging process is so subjective.

So when I hear people say we have to go BPA... I always take it with a grain of salt. It's an "in the moment" term. I think DeCastro will be a fine NFL player, but I definitely don't think he'll be the only OG who will be able to have a big impact in the NFL. If our scouting dept does their job right, then imo, they don't take DeCastro in fear of not being able to address OG later. They should have the confidence to make a smart decision no matter where we are picking.

IMO, I think we should trade down and add picks. That's my first choice, but I realize it takes another team to dance with.

CDCB14 · 03-20-2012, 01:20 PM

Some good stuff today on The Lunch Break regarding the OL. Josh Ellis said he talked to a guy in the organization and they do think Livings and Bernedeau are upgrades not only in play but because of the simple fact that they are much bigger and stronger than what they had last year.

Also, Nick Eatman said that Callahan had Phillip Blake and Amini Silatolu in for a private work out because he doesn't like pro days and wants to get a feel for them himself.

That just tells me that we probably are going to go defense in round one and target one of those guys in round two or three.

So, pretty much forget DeCastro. *Sigh,* it was a nice dream while it lasted.

D-Unit · 03-20-2012, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketaces

Is this it?

http://footballoutsiders.com/nfl-dra...draft-position

I never saw that before. Pretty dang cool. Thing about FO, they have so much info it's hard to digest. LOL. Like them a lot though.

leroyisgod · 03-20-2012, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDCB14

Some good stuff today on The Lunch Break regarding the OL. Josh Ellis said he talked to a guy in the organization and they do think Livings and Bernedeau are upgrades not only in play but because of the simple fact that they are much bigger and stronger than what they had last year.

Also, Nick Eatman said that Callahan had Phillip Blake and Amini Silatolu in for a private work out because he doesn't like pro days and wants to get a feel for them himself.

That just tells me that we probably are going to go defense in round one and target one of those guys in round two or three.

So, pretty much forget DeCastro. *Sigh,* it was a nice dream while it lasted.

I have to say that I probably won't be excited about our 1st pick. Not to say I won't like it, but not excited about it.

D-Unit · 03-20-2012, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leroyisgod

I have to say that I probably won't be excited about our 1st pick. Not to say I won't like it, but not excited about it.

If we stay there, then I won't be happy.

Trogdor · 03-20-2012, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Unit

I think you are taking the intent of my post in the wrong way. I can sense the tension mounting, and I don't really care to go there with you so let me try to be a little clearer.

Those PFF stats only indicated that we were an average OL last year. This was eye opening to me because I could've sworn we'd be ranked at the bottom. I think anytime you receive new information that you are allowed to change your views. So if it means being inconsistent with the past, then there's nothing wrong with that, imo. I think anyone can agree with that.

That said, I've never felt at ANY moment in time that this was an OL that didn't need upgrades. While not as bad as I initially thought, there was no time where I thought we'd be ok staying with the same personnel. NEVER.

Once FA opened, I have to admit... Our front office did a surgical like job at coordinating, pin pointing and signing their targets. They seemed to know exactly who they wanted, how much they wanted to spend on them, and went out and got em all in impressive fashion.

I can't sit here and say I'm a fan of Livings, and I can't say that I'm confident about our OL to the point where I feel they can be one of the best in the league. I don't even know if Livings and Bernadeau will be an immediate upgrade over Holland and Kosier to be honest. However, I do feel good about them being upgrades in terms of youth, health/durability, future promise and better fits in regards to the future direction of the OL. This is not a push button solution. We need to realize that it's gonna be a process and year 1 is not going to be picture perfect. But the beauty of it is, that with this kind of rehaul, that we can finally start to build long term stability and cohesiveness that can turn this unit into a long term effective solution.

So when you combine our FA efforts to fix the OL, the fact that our offense wasn't the main problem despite the weak interior, the fact they put up a lot of points, the idea that we weren't as bad as some (including myself thought), the fact that this is a deep draft for OG, the fact that we have pressing needs to repair a defense that couldn't hold big leads in the 4th quarter, the fact that it's not a wise cap solution to spend that pick on OG...I could probably go on and on... but all that combined together makes me think that using the 14th pick on OG isn't in our best interests. Regardless if that OG happens to be BPA.

Besides, BPA is such a fickle label. You can't look back at any draft in any year and pin point for a fact that you got the BPA when you're picking in the middle of round 1. BPA is a term mock drafters and draft niks use to justify rankings, but the reality is that it's different for everyone because the judging process is so subjective.

So when I hear people say we have to go BPA... I always take it with a grain of salt. It's an "in the moment" term. I think DeCastro will be a fine NFL player, but I definitely don't think he'll be the only OG who will be able to have a big impact in the NFL. If our scouting dept does their job right, then imo, they don't take DeCastro in fear of not being able to address OG later. They should have the confidence to make a smart decision no matter where we are picking.

IMO, I think we should trade down and add picks. That's my first choice, but I realize it takes another team to dance with.

Don't get me wrong I agree with the values. If we can get a "fair" trade-down I'd be all over it. The value of a late 1st and multiple 2nds is insane this year. It'd be harder to understand why a team would want to trade that far up this year though :/

I do agree that if you have a scouting department that you FULLY trust you can take offensive lineman late and develop them into a workable line. I'm just EXTREMELY weary of trusting our scouting staff in evaluating them. Sure they hit a home run with Tyron Smith and perhaps Free but look at the last 10 years (starting with 2003):

2003: Al Johnson (2); Justin Bates (7)
2004: Jacob Rogers (2); Stephan Peterman (3)
2005: Rob Petitti (6)
2006: E.J. Whitley (7); Pat McQuistan (7)
2007: James Marten (3); Doug Free (4)
2008: NONE
2009: Robert Brewster (3)
2010: Sam Young (6)

Vomit inducing to say the least.

thule · 03-20-2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketaces

Is this it?

http://footballoutsiders.com/nfl-dra...draft-position

Good guide but I think 6 years is a bit outdated now...anyone find something from the last 10 years? haha i realize this is like finding a needle in a haystack

D-Unit · 03-20-2012, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor

Don't get me wrong I agree with the values. If we can get a "fair" trade-down I'd be all over it. The value of a late 1st and multiple 2nds is insane this year. It'd be harder to understand why a team would want to trade that far up this year though :/

I do agree that if you have a scouting department that you FULLY trust you can take offensive lineman late and develop them into a workable line. I'm just EXTREMELY weary of trusting our scouting staff in evaluating them. Sure they hit a home run with Tyron Smith and perhaps Free but look at the last 10 years (starting with 2003):

2003: Al Johnson (2); Justin Bates (7)
2004: Jacob Rogers (2); Stephan Peterman (3)
2005: Rob Petitti (6)
2006: E.J. Whitley (7); Pat McQuistan (7)
2007: James Marten (3); Doug Free (4)
2008: NONE
2009: Robert Brewster (3)
2010: Sam Young (6)

Vomit inducing to say the least.

Hideous right? Ya I feel ya. That said, I think things change when you have different coaching staffs in place. Parcells/Ireland were putrid. I think Garrett is really riding the coattails of Callahan this year in regards to what he wants done on the OL. He said on Day 1 that he was going to lean on his advice, so I think you can erase our draft history in regards to what we've done and what we'll do on the OL... I'm gonna withhold judgement on this regime until it's been given a chance to unveil itself.

I like hearing that we've had visits with Zeitler, Silatolu, Konz, Blake, etc. Those are good signs.

leroyisgod · 03-20-2012, 03:22 PM

I can see the wrestling match in our war room between Callahan and Ryan now.

CDCB14 · 03-20-2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor

Don't get me wrong I agree with the values. If we can get a "fair" trade-down I'd be all over it. The value of a late 1st and multiple 2nds is insane this year. It'd be harder to understand why a team would want to trade that far up this year though :/

I do agree that if you have a scouting department that you FULLY trust you can take offensive lineman late and develop them into a workable line. I'm just EXTREMELY weary of trusting our scouting staff in evaluating them. Sure they hit a home run with Tyron Smith and perhaps Free but look at the last 10 years (starting with 2003):

2003: Al Johnson (2); Justin Bates (7)
2004: Jacob Rogers (2); Stephan Peterman (3)
2005: Rob Petitti (6)
2006: E.J. Whitley (7); Pat McQuistan (7)
2007: James Marten (3); Doug Free (4)
2008: NONE
2009: Robert Brewster (3)
2010: Sam Young (6)

Vomit inducing to say the least.

The sad thing about that is most of those guys sucked as prospects and were just terrible picks before they even touched the field. I'm not talking about what they did in the league at all. As draft prospects some of those guys were just awful

The good thing is that guys like Konz, Zeitler, Blake, Silatolu etc. are much better players so hopefully if we pick one of them they pan out.

D-Unit · 03-20-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDCB14

The sad thing about that is most of those guys sucked as prospects and were just terrible picks before they even touched the field. I'm not talking about what they did in the league at all. As draft prospects some of those guys were just awful

The good thing is that guys like Konz, Zeitler, Blake, Silatolu etc. are much better players so hopefully if we pick one of them they pan out.

The best was the excuse for Brewster... "Yeah, but Gosselin rated him as a Top 100 player!"

I bought the bait... hook, line and sinker... to the point where I had hopes he'd become something.

Macarthur · 03-20-2012, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Unit

The best was the excuse for Brewster... "Yeah, but Gosselin rated him as a Top 100 player!"

I bought the bait... hook, line and sinker... to the point where I had hopes he'd become something.

I think that's a legitimate thing. Look, goose doesn't come up with his list all on his own. His list is based off what personnel people around the league tell him. If Goose had him as a top 100 player, then lots of other teams did, too, not just the Cowboys. Sometimes a guy just can't make the jump.

thule · 03-20-2012, 04:34 PM

Just to further reinforce my point about how much of what we do is because of how Jason Garrett wants it and how it influences not only our culture but also our FA pitch.

Quote:

The Cowboys had DeMarcus Ware, Jason Witten, Sean Lee and Miles Austin eat dinner with Carr at the stadium and offer their sales pitches.

“I didn’t expect that at all,” Carr said. “Those guys came to dinner and they were down to earth. That blew me away that here are guys like DeMarcus Ware and Jason Witten and they’re going to be grinding away all summer and in the locker room. I was like, ‘Man, these guys are guys I can see myself playing with.’ They seem accountable. Everybody had the same message as far as getting it down now and not waiting. That’s what I want. Those guys are pretty anxious to get back at it.”

Carr sure is saying all the right things this offseason...here's to hoping he backs it up.

crisco0710 · 03-20-2012, 04:35 PM

I just don't see up going offense in the first round. They are going to give Ryan another toy to use.

D-Unit · 03-20-2012, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thule

Just to further reinforce my point about how much of what we do is because of how Jason Garrett wants it and how it influences not only our culture but also our FA pitch.

Carr sure is saying all the right things this offseason...here's to hoping he backs it up.

Of course Romo wasn't there.

But anyways, that was a neat strategy! Thanks for the share.

leroyisgod · 03-20-2012, 06:46 PM

Eagles traded for Demeco Ryans today for an undisclosed draft pick. Great pick-up by them.

CDCB14 · 03-20-2012, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Unit

Of course Romo wasn't there.

But anyways, that was a neat strategy! Thanks for the share.

It does bother me that it seems like Romo is never around the guys. I would like that in my quarterback. He seems buddies with Witten and Miles, but other than that he's never around, always gone acting like the QB who is too cool. I love Romo, but that is one thing that irks me just a bit. Then again, I bet it's the same for most guys around the league. I don't Eli or Tom Brady spend much time around the guys besides actual practice and the games.

Anyway, to the eagles picking up DeMeco Ryans... has he done anything over the past 3 years? He was such a promising guy back in 2006 and 2007 but I feel like he's just fallen under the radar. I know he got a big contract 2 years ago and from the reports I read he is still a solid player, but he is nothing i'm really scared of. It improves their team no doubt, but ehhh whatever. Ryans and DeMarco Murray one on one in the open field... not a good day for the eagles.

Also, i'm really getting worried that we are going to bring back Alan Ball to a vet minimum deal to be our 4th CB and emergency safety. I just have a bad feeling and Josh Ellis tweeted that it is a possibility. Man I wish someone like the Vikings would just pick him up so we don't have to worry about it. I'd rather have an undrafted free agent from a D3 school than him. New blood. Get these guys who we haven't won with out of here. Absolutely no point in bringing him back. How could an UDFA with a spec of skill be any worse?

EDIT: Just did my research on Ryans. He blew out his achilles midway through 2010 and wasn't the same this past year. I bet he'll be better this year but he's still not someone I am that afraid of. Upgrade for the eagles nonetheless.

D-Unit · 03-20-2012, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leroyisgod

Eagles traded for Demeco Ryans today for an undisclosed draft pick. Great pick-up by them.

I like that! Could've been worse had they taken Kuechly.

igglefanz · 03-20-2012, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leroyisgod

Eagles traded for Demeco Ryans today for an undisclosed draft pick. Great pick-up by them.

The trade is the eagles are moving from 13 to 26 in the third round and giving up one of their 2 4th's Either pick number 4 in the 4th or pick number 19 in the 4th. They still have all 3 of their top 3 picks

Macarthur · 03-20-2012, 10:51 PM

Ryan's hasn't been the same since the achilles injury. Not sure this is such a great deal for Philly.

leroyisgod · 03-21-2012, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macarthur

Ryan's hasn't been the same since the achilles injury. Not sure this is such a great deal for Philly.

He's going to cost them a pretty penny on the remainder of his contract.

Macarthur · 03-21-2012, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leroyisgod

He's going to cost them a pretty penny on the remainder of his contract.

Yeah, everyone is raving about how Philly getting him so cheap (4th).

I think they gave up too high of a pick and then everyone just ignores the size of his contract. Nothing cheap about this deal for Philly.

Someone said on another site (no idea if it's true) that Dallas actually had strong interest in Ryans until the team doctors convinced them to back off.