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Old 04-09-2007, 06:54 PM    (permalink
MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
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Originally Posted by jared View Post
I'm going to disagree there. People give way too much credit to the guys currently in the league. Hype, publicity, luck, grades, your standing with the law, and being on your coach's good side can all play a factor in how far you advance. Some guys just never get a legit shot. Quick: tell me which hypothetical highschool tailback a college scout is going to bother to go watch: Jermaine Jackson from Florida or Gerhard von Klingendorf from Iowa...?
And on a Canadian note you can't honestly tell me that Jesse Lumsden didn't show enough promise to warrant being picked up and developed by one of the 32 teams in the NFL. The guy had that magical "upside" that everyone is so in love with; he had a rare combination of size and athleticism, the stats (albeit in Canada), and the production in Skin's training camp to get a serious tryout but I don't think he did. He had to pace in front of his coaches for 3/4 of the game just to get in for a snap or two in the final moments of the last preseason game...gimme a break.

Yeah, there's definitely gonna be SOME stuff like that, and unfortunately for Jesse he's got the double bad luck thing(of being Canadian AND white). It's a real shame though, because he is very talented. Same thing with Andy Fantuz, who shattered every receiving record in Canada, is 6'4", and apparently ran a 4.52. Maybe if he never almost completely destroyed his knee, he would get a shot, as I imagine it had to have cost him SOME mobility. Hopefully both those guys can get a shot somewhere in the future, as I find it hard to believe there are 1700 players better than them.

Although, I think what njx meant is that a dominant player in the CFL won't stay in the CFL if he's good enough to make 10 times(or more) the money and dominate the NFL.
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Old 04-09-2007, 07:02 PM    (permalink
jared
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Yeah, there's definitely gonna be SOME stuff like that, and unfortunately for Jesse he's got the double bad luck thing(of being Canadian AND white). It's a real shame though, because he is very talented. Same thing with Andy Fantuz, who shattered every receiving record in Canada, is 6'4", and apparently ran a 4.52. Maybe if he never almost completely destroyed his knee, he would get a shot, as I imagine it had to have cost him SOME mobility. Hopefully both those guys can get a shot somewhere in the future, as I find it hard to believe there are 1700 players better than them.

Although, I think what njx meant is that a dominant player in the CFL won't stay in the CFL if he's good enough to make 10 times(or more) the money and dominate the NFL.
Oh agreed. Very few people are gonna decide to stay in Canada if they think they can make the big bucks in the NFL. The NFL of course is going to attract a lot of great athletes. My point is merely that just because you're the starter or just because you're on the roster does not mean that there aren't a dozen other guys who can do it just as good or better. A lot of other factors (including luck) play into someone making it that far.
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Old 04-09-2007, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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I'm going to disagree there. People give way too much credit to the guys currently in the league. Hype, publicity, luck, grades, your standing with the law, and being on your coach's good side can all play a factor in how far you advance. Some guys just never get a legit shot. Quick: tell me which hypothetical highschool tailback a college scout is going to bother to go watch: Jermaine Jackson from Florida or Gerhard von Klingendorf from Iowa...?
And on a Canadian note you can't honestly tell me that Jesse Lumsden didn't show enough promise to warrant being picked up and developed by one of the 32 teams in the NFL. The guy had that magical "upside" that everyone is so in love with; he had a rare combination of size and athleticism, the stats (albeit in Canada), and the production in Skin's training camp to get a serious tryout but I don't think he did. He had to pace in front of his coaches for 3/4 of the game just to get in for a snap or two in the final moments of the last preseason game...gimme a break.

You hit the nail on the head there. Just because Jesse Lumsden ran for 300 yards several times over the likes of U of Toronto or York doesn't matter. The kid can run, catch, block, has size and speed, and can flat out play football. I can remember countless times watching Redskins broadcasts of their pre-season games and the announcers were really high on Lumsden and evev gave him player of the game on one game. Yet they still cut him. Same deal with the Seahawks, I highly doubt that it was because he wasn't good enough, he had the skill that many of those guys have, same speed, better size but was only given 2 carries a game with the 3rd stringers in. No where near a chance given to a player. If you hear him talk about it, he even says how he was given an unfair chance. It comes back to his roots. Exactly what the post above was saying.

To njx

I saw u agree with someone about the money as to why they would choose the NFL over CFL. Im pretty sure that I had stated that a few times that it would probably COST the player more to move to Canada then it would to make money in the NFL. There is no doubt that any player would choose the NFL over the CFL, check Lumsden again, drafted #1 overral in the CFL and went to try it in the NFL. Im not arguing that point.
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Old 04-09-2007, 07:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
that's certainly part of it.

but then, the NFL scouts deemed Steve McNair worthy of a top 5 pick, and he played at D-I powerhosue Alcorn State, so I'm sure there might be a point somewhere.

finding the 3 random exceptions to the rule does not disprove the general rule. i would guarantee that the best NFL players are far better than the best CFL players. the worst NFL players are likely far better than the worst CFL players. you can't pick off the best CFL player and say "well he was good enough to make a roster, so they must all have equal talent and they're just not giving them a shot because they played in canada". that's ridiculous.
Yes again while that may be true, have you thought of this quote in reversal?
Look at your NFL players that have come to the CFL and suceeded. Not many. Ricky Williams did nothing...and so on. It works both ways considering that these are two totally different leagues.
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Old 04-09-2007, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Billingsley26 View Post
Most of this is incorrect!
Yes the CFL has smaller guys and probably not as good athletes, but the reason the CFL doesnt appeal to guys is that it would probably cost the players money to come play in Canada. The average salary in the CFL is about $35,000 (canadian) per year. Not very attractive. Not to mention that about 80% of each team's rosters have to be Canadian players. Right there they are held at a disadvantage. The draft system is the same in the CFL as it is in the NFL. They have combine, Pro Days, Senior Bowl (its called the East-West Bowl) and so forth. Also, exactly what you said about most of the best players in the CFL come from the draft is true in Canada as well. The only positions that are taken by Americans are QB's, RB's and WR's. Thats it. So please know what your talking about.
Perhaps you should actually know what you're talking about. The Canadian content of a CFL team isn't 80%, it's 50% on the active roster. And those players can either be Canadian born OR have played for Canadian college teams. Looking over every teams roster, I noticed that looking at the entire roster, both active and inactive, these are the numbers of players that actually attended Canadian college's. Note that some players don't have a college listed for them, so those were not included in the count.

Hamilton-15 of 67 players attended Canadian colleges, or 22%.

Montreal-8/56, or 14%

Winnipeg-10/58, or 17%

Toronto-13/55, or 24%

BC-8/45, or 18%

Calgary-11/51, or 22%

Edmonton-11/60, or 18%

Saskatchewan-8/53, or 15%

So looking at that, it tells me that the majority of players, be they Canadian or not, are still coming from American Colleges. And I would say if they were good enough to make the NFL, they would have. As far as being only QB's, RB's, and WR's, most of the players that played in Canadian colleges were O linemen. So, even if we know that 50% of the CFL active roster has to be made up of Canadians, by your logic, the other 50% would have to be QB's, WR's, and RB's. I would think, seeing as how CFL teams are limited to a 42 man active roster, having 21 of those players being QB's, RB's and WR's, it would be pretty damn hard to win any games against an NFL team, being as you'd have almost no subs for any of your other positions.
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Old 04-09-2007, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
that's certainly part of it.

but then, the NFL scouts deemed Steve McNair worthy of a top 5 pick, and he played at D-I powerhosue Alcorn State, so I'm sure there might be a point somewhere.

finding the 3 random exceptions to the rule does not disprove the general rule. i would guarantee that the best NFL players are far better than the best CFL players. the worst NFL players are likely far better than the worst CFL players. you can't pick off the best CFL player and say "well he was good enough to make a roster, so they must all have equal talent and they're just not giving them a shot because they played in canada". that's ridiculous.
Of course they don't all have equal talent, as was already mentioned Canada has a much smaller pool of talent to pick from and anybody who shines enough AND gets a real look from the NFL will choose the NFL in a heartbeat. My only point is that just because guys like Jesse Lumsden aren't on an NFL and guys like Marcel Shipp are, doesn't mean the Canadian (or anyone for that matter) is an inferior player. Like I said before, a lot of politics and factors come into play when making an NFL roster and especially starting. I get annoyed sometimes because I get the impression that NFL fans just kind of close their eyes and plug their ears and go "lalalala, the best players always play, PERIOD" because it's simply not always true. I'd say it's realistically true about 70% of the time.
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Old 04-09-2007, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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Yes again while that may be true, have you thought of this quote in reversal?
Look at your NFL players that have come to the CFL and suceeded. Not many. Ricky Williams did nothing...and so on. It works both ways considering that these are two totally different leagues.
It's true there are more CFL-NFL successes than NFL-CFL. but now think of how many people try to make the NFL. Pretty much anyone who dominates the CFL tries to make an NFL camp the next year. In the NFL, they only go to the CFL if they're suspended(Ricky) or suck(Onterrio Smith). But one I just thought of is R Jay Soward I think, 1st round NFL bust, solid CFL receiver.
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Old 04-09-2007, 09:57 PM    (permalink
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Perhaps you should actually know what you're talking about. The Canadian content of a CFL team isn't 80%, it's 50% on the active roster. And those players can either be Canadian born OR have played for Canadian college teams. Looking over every teams roster, I noticed that looking at the entire roster, both active and inactive, these are the numbers of players that actually attended Canadian college's. Note that some players don't have a college listed for them, so those were not included in the count.

Hamilton-15 of 67 players attended Canadian colleges, or 22%.

Montreal-8/56, or 14%

Winnipeg-10/58, or 17%

Toronto-13/55, or 24%

BC-8/45, or 18%

Calgary-11/51, or 22%

Edmonton-11/60, or 18%

Saskatchewan-8/53, or 15%

So looking at that, it tells me that the majority of players, be they Canadian or not, are still coming from American Colleges. And I would say if they were good enough to make the NFL, they would have. As far as being only QB's, RB's, and WR's, most of the players that played in Canadian colleges were O linemen. So, even if we know that 50% of the CFL active roster has to be made up of Canadians, by your logic, the other 50% would have to be QB's, WR's, and RB's. I would think, seeing as how CFL teams are limited to a 42 man active roster, having 21 of those players being QB's, RB's and WR's, it would be pretty damn hard to win any games against an NFL team, being as you'd have almost no subs for any of your other positions.
I never really said that most went to Canadian Universities. If you look at any roster it has many more guys from American Schools, whether they are Canadian or American they just have to be Canadian born. Let's see here...any Canadian that is sent down to a school in the states via scholorship is obvioulsy there for football. Yet you still dont understand what a disadvantage they are held at. It has nothing to do with being a worse athlete because at that level they are all very good athletes. Coaches have certain preferences and they like certain guys more than others which they may favor. Im not saying by any means that this happens to EVERY Canadian, but it does happen.
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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I never really said that most went to Canadian Universities. If you look at any roster it has many more guys from American Schools, whether they are Canadian or American they just have to be Canadian born. Let's see here...any Canadian that is sent down to a school in the states via scholorship is obvioulsy there for football. Yet you still dont understand what a disadvantage they are held at. It has nothing to do with being a worse athlete because at that level they are all very good athletes. Coaches have certain preferences and they like certain guys more than others which they may favor. Im not saying by any means that this happens to EVERY Canadian, but it does happen.
But they don't need to be Canadian born. They simply have to have played college ball in Canada. And believe me, I do understand what you're saying, I just don't think it's as big a problem as you make it out to be. I lived in Canada for 20 years. I certainly agree that a player that played at a Canadian college is going to be at a major disadvantage when it comes to making an NFL roster. But if a guy is recruited from Canada to play in the US, I feel if he's good enough, he's going to see playing time. That's just my feeling, that coaches are going to play the best players.
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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But they don't need to be Canadian born. They simply have to have played college ball in Canada. And believe me, I do understand what you're saying, I just don't think it's as big a problem as you make it out to be. I lived in Canada for 20 years. I certainly agree that a player that played at a Canadian college is going to be at a major disadvantage when it comes to making an NFL roster. But if a guy is recruited from Canada to play in the US, I feel if he's good enough, he's going to see playing time. That's just my feeling, that coaches are going to play the best players.
Yeah, pretty much. Generally, to get noticed in Canada for a scholarship from the US, you have to be VERY good. Like good enough to go to a very good program if you lived in their state. But you won't get offers from that school, you'll get offers to smaller, worse schools, mostof the time. Although Miami had a nice pipeline of Canadian O-Linemen a few years back.
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:23 PM    (permalink
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Many say that and that could be right. I have heard of both situations from people down there. You could be right. Im pretty sure that they have to be Canadian born, considering that chart that you put stating every teams Canadian players on it was only players coming out of Canadian Universities, and that % is no where near 50% each team. So it has to be Canadian born.
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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Many say that and that could be right. I have heard of both situations from people down there. You could be right. Im pretty sure that they have to be Canadian born, considering that chart that you put stating every teams Canadian players on it was only players coming out of Canadian Universities, and that % is no where near 50% each team. So it has to be Canadian born.
No, it can actually be either. That chart was just guys that played at Canadian colleges. Some of them were actually born in the States. In fact, one I noticed was born in Liberia! But I also counted the number of players that were born in Canada. Some played in Canada, others in the States, but it was a lower number on each team. But I think if you actually went and looked at each guy, plus the guys that had no place of birth or college listed, it would probably equal out to half the roster.
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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Im surprised this is still a debate.
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:39 AM    (permalink
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its funny that this thread even started. lets do a little comparison I like to call apples and oranges. USD109M vs CAN4.05M (which converts to 3.51M USD).

so tell me, how do you get the same caliber players for roughly 1/30 the money to spend? Heck the arena league has almost to spend as the CFL, and less players.

How much does each team have to spend against the NFL Salary Cap?
Answer: In 2005, it was set at $85.5 Million. Last year it was originally set to be approximately $94.5 Million. However, an extension to the CBA brought with it a new formula, which saw an expansion to approximately $102 Million. The cap in 2007 is set to be $109 Million.

Enforcement of the new regulations is set begin starting with the 2007 CFL season, when the cap is set to rise to $4.05 million due to increased revenues.
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Old 04-10-2007, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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so you're saying there's 30% of the CFL that's kept out of the NFL because the NFL doesn't like people who've been to canada? or maybe because they don't like talent? ooo, or maybe because they can't identify talent? that's idiotic (which should be carefully differentiated from "you're an idiot" which i didn't say). you've found one player and you keep re-using him as if he's representative of some bias against CFL players. i'm sure that's why doug flutie never made it. i'm sure it had nothing to do with his height. he played in canada!

find 30% of the CFL that IS better than the NFL. hell, find 5% that should make an active roster over anyone who's already on that roster. you know what, i'm feeling generous, find 10 people who should make an NFL roster from the CFL and i'd be willing to bet at least 9.5 of them have physical or mental limitations that kept them out of the league.
You misunderstand my point. I think that in general in the NFL the best players are playing about 70% of the time. I didn't mean to imply that the other 30% consisted of Canadians. I don't even care about the CFL. I'm merely pointing to what I think is an ignorant assumption that the NFL is always playing the best possible players. My point is that a lot of politics go into making a roster and starting on it. A lot of players get overlooked or shunned, Canadian, American, Mexican, whatever for various reasons. Bias kind of varies by position also so it comes as no surprise to me that Flutie got a chance but Lumsden didn't. I can name many examples of players who I feel were not given a legit shot and they're all Americans. I am not making any claims about the superiority of the CFL. As has already been beat to death on this forum: 1) they play different styles 2) The NFL lures great athletes because their cap is astronomically bigger 3) The US talent pool is much larger. The overall athleticism is greater, fact.

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Old 04-10-2007, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Billingsley26 View Post
Lets hear a name in here! Just saying there was a puny one on Montreal doesnt mean anything.
It was Philip Gauthier, DB from Laval, he was playing LB because didn't had the "athletism" coach matthews wanted from his DB. He was cut or traded last year.

I also think Étienne Boulay is listed as a LB, but he's more like the nickel guy.
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Old 04-10-2007, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Ya njx9 seems to be very one minded here. He by no means meant that all situations are like that. I agree with him. Flutie on the other hand played at BC and had a solid career there. I believe he was also drafted by the Bears (possibly Patriots) then was let go. Lumsden on the other hand went to McMaster and killed the entire CIS, was a first round pick in the CFL, yet was almost given no shot in the NFL. I have no doubt that he could carry himself in the NFL. He has the size, speed and everything you need. He just wasnt given the fair shot. Thats how it is.
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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i'm not one minded, i've spat out every single worthless argument you've presented, and now you've fallen down to "well this one player could've made it in the NFL and wasn't given a shot so there must be a lot of CFL players who could make it in the NFL and weren't given a shot although i have no proof of this which further means they could really compete with NFL players on the field because they could hold brandon jacobs to 1 yard per carry because they're as big as NFL linebackers, i mean they're smaller and quicker, i mean they're the same size but able to cover more of the field because they're bigger, faster and smarter." that's a pretty accurate summation of every worthless argument you've presented in this thread, then subsequently backtracked out of. do yourself a favor and stop arguing. nothing you've said has been even vaguely worth listening to, and you've actually consistently weakened your own position.

When I say you are one minded this is more to my reasoning. Just because I mention one name in Brandon Jacobs you just asume him. Im talking all big backs in the NFL, ALL. You think that because I say Jesse Lumsden didnt make it means they all wont. Well if you look at where many of the CFL players come from, check the post above written about how many were from the CIS, you will see that many had played with all of your NFL stars in D1 schools. Whats the difference then? If they all came from the same schools in the Big 10, SEC, Big 12, ACC whatver, they are all from those schools. This difference is that the game is totally different as is the coaching style. Different style of game leads to different type of players.
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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i never said they're "playing" them, i said they "have" them, which is a major distinction. for instance, the NBA will always have the most talented basketball players. there might be a few guys in foreign leagues who are better, but by and large, they end up in the NBA. same thing in baseball.

you're beginning to have a seperate, unrelated argument. i'm sure you're right, there are players who could be starting but aren't for whatever reason. my original point was that 99.999999% of the time, the most talented players will be in the NFL, thus for Billingsley to imply that CFL players are just as atheltic/talented/good at football is ridiculous and clearly untrue.
I dont recall saying they were ever more talented than the NFL players. More talented at Canadian Football maybe, but never more than an NFL player at the NFL game. I vividly remember saying that athletically they are at a par, the CFL has their guys who run 4.3's and bench 40 times. An athlete is an athlete (not talking skill here).
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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and then you suggested that they tackle better than NFL players. then you suggested they read plays better and faster. then you suggested they cover more ground better than nfl players. seriously, stop talking.
If you look at what I said you will see that they are built they way they are in order to do these certain things better.
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