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Old 03-24-2012, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by E-Man View Post
It's crazy to think about how young he is. It really explains his decline. He was such a bruiser, and it caught up to him. At least he was great to watch while he lasted.
that is the life of an NFL RB
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Witten4HOF View Post
Which in turn would increase the value of a tightend. I dont know why everyone had an issue when I suggested Fleener. Before the addition of Fiammetta last year the team used some rediculous number 55%-65% of twin tight packages as a base. By no means am I talking about using #14, I was suggesting in a trade down where the team would by supplemented with additional picks. If the team dropped to the 26-32 range I would have ZERO issue pulling the trigger. Plenty of Value at position of needs in the second and third rounds to bolster our depth.
The problem is that we have far worse issues and the price for spending a pick on him would be too high imo... even in a trade down. Fleener is not an all world talent either who would be a steal there either.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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Witten is on his last legs though. The guy is so slow now. Still a great player, he just finds ways to get open but you still should think of a future replacement.

Maybe not Fleener, but a guy later in the draft wouldn't be a terrible idea.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Witten is on his last legs though. The guy is so slow now. Still a great player, he just finds ways to get open but you still should think of a replacement.

Maybe not Fleener, but a guy later in the draft wouldn't be a terrible idea.
I'm not against addressing it later. John Phillips is no slouch though. I think he could easily be our featured TE. The thing that makes Witten so good is definitely not his athletic ability. It's the fact that he and Romo have that special relationship and he has tremendous hands to catch everything that comes his way.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Witten has never been an elite athlete. He's been "slow" his entire career he has a knack for sitting in the open spots and will catch absolutely anything in reach. He's the type of TE that ages well if anything since he isn't relying on physical gifts.

Pass on early round TEs and continue grabbing projects later in the draft.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Witten is on his last legs though. The guy is so slow now. Still a great player, he just finds ways to get open but you still should think of a future replacement.

Maybe not Fleener, but a guy later in the draft wouldn't be a terrible idea.
how is he slow he outran deangelo hall 30 yards for a td, must be the jordy nelson syndrome
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Old 03-24-2012, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
I'm not against addressing it later. John Phillips is no slouch though. I think he could easily be our featured TE. The thing that makes Witten so good is definitely not his athletic ability. It's the fact that he and Romo have that special relationship and he has tremendous hands to catch everything that comes his way.
Phillips is basically a blocking TE. I don't see him contributing much to the passing attack.
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Old 03-24-2012, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Phillips is basically a blocking TE. I don't see him contributing much to the passing attack.
You are completely wrong here. D-Unit is right about John Phillips. He is actually a very good athlete who can attack a defense he just hasn't had the opportunities yet. Almost all of his catches display athleticism. He is big, strong, fast and has good hands. The dude can play. I really think he could be a starter in this league somewhere. He won't be a pro-bowler but the dude can play. He is a solid blocker too. I do think we should add an athletic TE for depth purposes and potential mismatches on 3rd downs but this Fleener talk is blasphemy. Just stop that.

As for Witten, he's no Antonio Gates but he is deceptively athletic. He wouldn't be as good as he is if he was just relying on smarts. Like someone pointed out, he beat DeAngelo Hall to the endzone with plenty of time for Hall to catch him, and Hall ran like a 4.28 I believe.

Witten's acceleration is poor which makes him look slow and when he sits down in routes its hard for him to get started after the catch, but when he is moving he isn't slow.
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Old 03-24-2012, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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You are completely wrong here. D-Unit is right about John Phillips. He is actually a very good athlete who can attack a defense he just hasn't had the opportunities yet. Almost all of his catches display athleticism. He is big, strong, fast and has good hands. The dude can play. I really think he could be a starter in this league somewhere. He won't be a pro-bowler but the dude can play. He is a solid blocker too. I do think we should add an athletic TE for depth purposes and potential mismatches on 3rd downs but this Fleener talk is blasphemy. Just stop that.

As for Witten, he's no Antonio Gates but he is deceptively athletic. He wouldn't be as good as he is if he was just relying on smarts. Like someone pointed out, he beat DeAngelo Hall to the endzone with plenty of time for Hall to catch him, and Hall ran like a 4.28 I believe.

Witten's acceleration is poor which makes him look slow and when he sits down in routes its hard for him to get started after the catch, but when he is moving he isn't slow.
Completely wrong? Have you watched him lumber around on the field? He's basically going to catch a few balls in the flat and a handful over the middle and that's it.
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Old 03-24-2012, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Phillips is a solid H-back and #2 TE. He has zero speed to challenge the seam and he's best described as "adequate" as far as acceleration and quickness of the line.

I love him as a #2 and potential safety blanket for a QB but he will never be able to give defensive coordinators nightmares like Witten does. He just doesn't have the quickness or speed to challenge anything but short and intermediate routes (which is fine).

Even his scouting reports prior to actually seeing him for the 'Boys bears this out.

Quote:
Dependable receiver that covers the ball up and holds onto the ball when tackled. Catches the ball in traffic. Good concentration. Natural hands catcher that will reach and extend for the ball. A big target that needs more upper and lower body strength as in inline blocker. Effective on a combo block. A willing blocker that keeps a good base and works to finish his blocks. Stays square with the ability to shadow the pass rusher. Lacks the ability to turn a short catch into a long gain. Limited run after catch ability. Can read coverages and has good football intelligence. Has the frame to add more muscle weight. Effective short and medium zone receiver.
Quote:
POSITIVES: "Well-rounded tight end with limited upside for the next level. Solid hand catcher who consistently makes the reception away from his frame, takes a pounding but holds onto the ball. Nicely settles into the open spot of the defense, adjusts to the errant throw, and wins out in battles. Displays good blocking awareness and gives effort until the whistle blows. Breaks down well playing with good fundamentals."

NEGATIVES: "Not quick releasing off the line, lumbers about the field, and shows marginal playing speed. Displays average strength and not a dominant blocker who gets much movement."

ANALYSIS: "Phillips has been a positive player at Virginia, and he has enough skill to make it as a second tight end in the NFL."
As D has mentioned before we have a tendency to overrate our own players. I will say despite what I posted above I do love Phillips as a #2 TE.

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Old 03-24-2012, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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TE's don't have to be the most athletic beings in the game. Good size and good hands are basically all you need. The difference between the goods and the greats are the relationships they have with their QBs and the trust/reliance there. Obviously just talking out of my butt like I usually do, but that's what I think. lol.

Sure Brees is damn happy to have Graham and Davis and Gates are athletic son of guns... but those are luxuries. All a QB needs are options to get the ball downfield. But if your defense can make stops, it's all pointless in the end.

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Old 03-24-2012, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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I just wanted to comment on Jason Witten. He has always been like an 18 wheeler. Slow acceleration but decent top end speed, but ZERO agility. Me and my brothers always laugh at how he can never avoid a tackle, he always turns the corner in the slowest way possible, but i love him to death. He's amazing.
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Old 03-24-2012, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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I just wanted to comment on Jason Witten. He has always been like an 18 wheeler. Slow acceleration but decent top end speed, but ZERO agility. Me and my brothers always laugh at how he can never avoid a tackle, he always turns the corner in the slowest way possible, but i love him to death. He's amazing.
Witten actually has a pretty high break tackle rate. I saw it in an advanced stat article on a post from BTB. But yeah, I know what you mean.

Me and my friend have an ongoing joke that Witten leads the league in SYAC, meaning sideways yards after the catch because he is so big that usually a DB just pushes him 10 yards to the sideline and out of bounds instead of Witten going up field LMFAO.

But hey, God bless the dude. One of the best to ever do it.
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Old 03-24-2012, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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Lol, i said avoid, i know he can break tackles cause he's a big ol farm boy, but i don't think he has ever juked once in his life. He is like a player in Tecmo bowl. Can only run the cardinal directions.
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Old 03-24-2012, 08:47 PM    (permalink
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Lol, i said avoid, i know he can break tackles cause he's a big ol farm boy, but i don't think he has ever juked once in his life. He is like a player in Tecmo bowl. Can only run the cardinal directions.
Wrong! Go to 1:20 and watch the JUKEZZZZZ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEo868uJkk

EDIT: Go to 3:32 and be amazed!!!!!

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Old 03-24-2012, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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Hahaha those are the slowest and least agile jukes ever.
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Completely wrong? Have you watched him lumber around on the field? He's basically going to catch a few balls in the flat and a handful over the middle and that's it.
witten doesn't look that fast bit he has build up speed and once he gets going he pretty fast for a 260 lb guy, even the good te's only run about 4.7, say what you want about witten but he always open
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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witten doesn't look that fast bit he has build up speed and once he gets going he pretty fast for a 260 lb guy, even the good te's only run about 4.7, say what you want about witten but he always open
I'm not talking about speed, but just he lumbers around. He's adequate and will do okay, but nothing that will excite you.
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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TE's don't have to be the most athletic beings in the game. Good size and good hands are basically all you need. The difference between the goods and the greats are the relationships they have with their QBs and the trust/reliance there. Obviously just talking out of my butt like I usually do, but that's what I think. lol.

Sure Brees is damn happy to have Graham and Davis and Gates are athletic son of guns... but those are luxuries. All a QB needs are options to get the ball downfield. But if your defense can make stops, it's all pointless in the end.
Oh I agree. Reliable hands and blocking are the hallmarks to a solid TE. I was more remarking against the comment that Phillips was "fast". :P He's a blue-collar lunchpail guy but certainly not a mismatch waiting to happen. I'd take him and his approach to the game 10/10 over Bennett and his wasted physical talents.
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Old 03-24-2012, 10:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Trogdor View Post
Oh I agree. Reliable hands and blocking are the hallmarks to a solid TE. I was more remarking against the comment that Phillips was "fast". :P He's a blue-collar lunchpail guy but certainly not a mismatch waiting to happen. I'd take him and his approach to the game 10/10 over Bennett and his wasted physical talents.
Which goes back to not needing to use a 1st rounder on a TE. Yuck yuck and poo. Not that you wanted to... just adding to the discussion.
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Old 03-25-2012, 12:46 AM    (permalink
CowboysBeastMode
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I'm not talking about speed, but just he lumbers around. He's adequate and will do okay, but nothing that will excite you.
but he always open, he always position himself perfectly and throws defenders off with subtle moves in his routes to get separation its more than just lumbering around

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Old 03-25-2012, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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It's crazy to think about how young he is. It really explains his decline. He was such a bruiser, and it caught up to him. At least he was great to watch while he lasted.
Also why the contract Jones gave him some years back was stoooo-pid.
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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Also why the contract Jones gave him some years back was stoooo-pid.
they thought barber would be a #1 rb, that could tote the load, but that wasn't the case, that's one of those hindsight is 20/20, everybody here thought barber was a #1, nobody was up in arms about giving him the money, there was alot of excitement about him finally takin over that the lead spot from julius jones but it didn't work out
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Old 03-25-2012, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/...-cap-grievance

Oh ya get that money back.
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Old 03-25-2012, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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The TE talk had me thinking not about taking someone early but starting Witten and Phillips for the next year or two and draft someone later in the draft like Ladarius Green or James Hanna to mold into the successor of our pass-catching TE. If we can snag either in the mid-to-late rounds as a project TE we could even bring them on the field for specific red-zone plays for nightmare mismatches.

Ladarius did blow up the senior bowl and combine so his stock might take him higher than I am looking from some accounts he's a mid-late 3rd. Hanna has been placed anywhere from the 5th through the 7th and might be the ideal target.
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