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Old 04-05-2012, 10:25 AM    (permalink
Brothgar
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
You are easily the only person who thinks that. Colt McCoy is not an NFL starting caliber QB. He couldn't be more firmly pressed against his ceiling if he tried.

That and even with improvements, they're the 4th best team in that division. With great improvements and a failure year out of one of the other teams, they might be able to compete for the 3rd spot.
I think if they picked up Richardson Wright and Cousins and find another piece in free agency as well as the third round its very possible with the Steelers crumbling the Ravens ancient and the Bengals inconsistent and slightly over rated.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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You are easily the only person who thinks that. Colt McCoy is not an NFL starting caliber QB. He couldn't be more firmly pressed against his ceiling if he tried.

That and even with improvements, they're the 4th best team in that division. With great improvements and a failure year out of one of the other teams, they might be able to compete for the 3rd spot.
While I seriously doubt we are close to playoff contention, and believe we are more likely to pick #1 overall than make the playoffs... With a good haul in this draft Cold could look better. I am one of the people who believe it really doesn't matter who Colt has around him he will still suck despite his work ethic. The Browns did a poor job in free agency this year and are relying heavily on hitting on our first three picks as well as some of the later rounds for some gems. With 13 picks this could be the turning point of our franchise, or it could be another year where we miss on a top tier talent and then get nothing from the later pool of the draft, which we are all too used to.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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While I seriously doubt we are close to playoff contention, and believe we are more likely to pick #1 overall than make the playoffs... With a good haul in this draft Cold could look better. I am one of the people who believe it really doesn't matter who Colt has around him he will still suck despite his work ethic. The Browns did a poor job in free agency this year and are relying heavily on hitting on our first three picks as well as some of the later rounds for some gems. With 13 picks this could be the turning point of our franchise, or it could be another year where we miss on a top tier talent and then get nothing from the later pool of the draft, which we are all too used to.
I'm not sure if you're elaborating more on what I said or if you're slightly disagreeing.

I don't think Colt is going to get much better and I don't think you'll ever be a contending team with him at QB.

The team overall could absolutely get better if you hit on a few of those draft picks, of which you have quite the plethora.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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Look, let me preface this by saying, I don't expect to make the playoffs, nor am I really optimistic for this team. That said, I do think that improvements are being made and that we are heading in the right direction.

I guess I don't see why Colt McCoy means the team is automatically awful. How is he significantly worse than anybody the Bears threw out there between McMahon and Cutler? Some of those teams were decent, and even went to the Super Bowl.

Just because everybody's new favorite phrase is, "it's a passing league", doesn't mean you can't win with defense and running the ball. Well guess what, we have a young and improving defense and could draft Trent Richardson...

So many people on this board think that just because they can regurgitate trending media-speak, that they are automatically correct in their analysis.

Oh the Browns have Colt McCoy? Well they suck because he isn't Manning, Rodgers, Brady, or Roethlisberger. He's played in 20ish games and is 1.5 inches shorter than you'd like. We know all there is to know about him.

Oh, he has no weapons and learned a new offense on his own last offseason? Well, Tom Brady does that stuff all the time. Why can't he stack up to a surefire HoFer?

/rant

So, yeah...6-10 here we come!
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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If you manage to create a power run/defense based team with Colt McCoy at QB who manages to go 10-6 and make the playoffs, then congrats.

You've just created a team who will go 10-6 (or so) and might barely make the playoffs each year. At best you'd have the Falcons or Jets of recent years 2.0.

Your QB determines your ceiling. Yes, every so often we see Mark Sanchez's and Alex Smith's sniff the Superbowl. But those teams, especially the 49ers, had to spent years accumulating talent at just about every other position than QB in order to make it work. Teams without great QBs who get anywhere near the Superbowl are in the vast minority. The last 3 Superbowl winners and losers are Eli Manning and Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers and Ben, Drew Brees and Peyton Manning. All 6 are elite QBs in this league.

Additionally their defenses were stacked. The Browns are still a few years off from being at the "stacked" level.

Finally, the Browns are the 4th best team in their division as things stand right now. If you seriously hit some grand slams in the draft and get a few other guys to step up all while the Steelers, Ravens and Bengals fumble their way backwards, you might move up a slot.

Now, if you draft some talented players this year and then trade everything it takes to move up for a top QB next year, we'll talk more about the Browns chances.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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I think any Browns fans would be incredibly delighted to go 10-6.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:34 AM    (permalink
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I think any Browns fans would be incredibly delighted to go 10-6.
No doubt. But that is the extreme high end of the spectrum requiring an implausibly large amount of things go just right.

Maybe this time they'd actually make the playoffs too.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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I get the whole argument. Elite QBs win Super Bowls. But what does that mean for the other 26 teams? They should just pack it in?

It just seems like the major strides in very nearly every other facet of the organization are being totally dismissed because of who the QB is.

It can be...frustrating.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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I think any Browns fans would be incredibly delighted to go 10-6.
Too true. (10)
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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I get the whole argument. Elite QBs win Super Bowls. But what does that mean for the other 26 teams? They should just pack it in?

It just seems like the major strides in very nearly every other facet of the organization are being totally dismissed because of who the QB is.

It can be...frustrating.
More than 6 teams have QBs that I would say are capable of winning a Superbowl without ridiculous levels of surrounding talent.

If you're not one of those teams, you just get by with who you have until the first opportunity to get someone better comes up. The Browns tried and failed to trade up for Griffin and I'm not sure that any non-Peyton FA QB represented a clear enough upgrade to pursue. That leaves them with McCoy which is unfortunate, but they can continue to build elsewhere for when they do get a franchise caliber QB.

Which, hopefully for you, is next draft. Trade what you have to for a guy with franchise potential. It's worth it in today's league.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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I get the whole argument. Elite QBs win Super Bowls. But what does that mean for the other 26 teams? They should just pack it in?

It just seems like the major strides in very nearly every other facet of the organization are being totally dismissed because of who the QB is.

It can be...frustrating.
I agree. I think the Browns have had some excellent drafts that have been really underlooked even by the draftik community.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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I'm not sure if you're elaborating more on what I said or if you're slightly disagreeing.

I don't think Colt is going to get much better and I don't think you'll ever be a contending team with him at QB.

The team overall could absolutely get better if you hit on a few of those draft picks, of which you have quite the plethora.
No I agree with what you are saying. I just said that I think Colt could play better with some pieces around him. He looked better in 2010 than in 2011 when we were able to run the ball. I think T-Richardson and a receiver would open up the offense a lot for us.

Basically, I see Colt's maximum potential turning out to be something like Alex Smith. Manage the game, don't turn the ball over, and let the run game/defense do the work. I think Greg Little can be a pretty good second receiver, we just really need our 22nd pick (if receiver) to turn out and be a stud, because Little as our #2 and Massaquoi (if healthy) could be a serviceable 3.

Lots of questions going into next year for us, should be a very telling season.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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No one should aspire to have Alex Smith as their QB though.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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My favorite part of your posts is your pure hatred for Lerner and you don't even know how long he's owned the team. Seriously go stick to Detroit and posting about them. On behalf of all Browns fans, we're done with you.
Solid argument about the state of the Browns, sure, throw your hands up because you have no argument that offers any real hope for the team.
I am a Brown's fan a lot longer than you, I can actually remember when the Brown's were a great team and did things the right way. You on the other hand are like so many fans on chronic losing teams, you continue to believe that some miracle will happen and that the team will miraculously find stars with incompetent people in charge. Good luck, with you way of thinking, you are going to need a hell of a lot of it.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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Your QB determines your ceiling. Yes, every so often we see Mark Sanchez's and Alex Smith's sniff the Superbowl. But those teams, especially the 49ers, had to spent years accumulating talent at just about every other position than QB in order to make it work.
Having two terrible coaches set the 49ers back more than anything else. If Mike Singletary is still here, the 49ers don't go 13-3 with all of that talent on the team.
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Old 04-05-2012, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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He even went on a rant about Shanny and Fisher being friends and taking the friend deal over ours.
This is something I'd easily believe.
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Old 04-05-2012, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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Seriously, I'm not sure if there have been many Lions references in this thread due to the fact that I skipped page two, but has there been any more hapless and hopeless team than the Detroit Lions...ever?

Let's see, before this past season we went 11 straight years without a playoff birth; Suffered an 0-16 season; Had a 24-game road losing streak; drafted 4 WR's in the first round (3 were enormous busts) from 2000-2010. Had to deal with the Joey Harrington error, Kevin Jones, Roy Williams, Ernie Sims, Gosder Cherilus, Ikaika Alama-Francis, Shaun Cody, and Teddy Lehman. No team has drafted worse than the Detroit Lions prior to the Martin Mayhew era.
I challenge you to a duel...the Rams have been absolutely awful.
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Old 04-05-2012, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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If we don't hit the nail on the head with this draft we're ******. Straight ******. Lerner will send Holmgren's donut loving fat ass out the door in a year or two and Heckert will be gone and we will be back to square one. Not sure I can do square one again. We need a couple offensive playmakers, some speed at LB and and a right tackle. Doable in this draft since we have the draft picks to do it.

BeerBaron's right though. I've some pretty harsh comments on that little kid we have at quarterback, we won't contend with him. The team can of course get better, but we HAVE to make a play in 2013 for a signal caller. We can make some strides this year, so I am still hopeful we can improve as a team and keep everything in tact. From the FO to the coaching staff although I doubt we'd blow it up after two seasons.

I just want to see an offense worth watching. Our defense wasn't pathetic in 2011 like years past, time to start ******* scoring a little.
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Old 04-06-2012, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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No one should aspire to have Alex Smith as their QB though.
Again I agree. I don't see it at a positive, but that is what I see Colt McCoy's ceiling as. Maybe a bit better if we get lucky and he gets some playmakers... I could see Colt being better with some confidence in the guys he is throwing the ball to, but I doubt he ends up being anything better than a career back-up.

Hopefully I am wrong, would love to see him succeed.
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"If something happens, and it's the Cleveland Browns, I'm going to pour my heart out for the Dawg Pound and try to win a Super Bowl for Cleveland," he said. "I don't care if they've had 20 starting quarterbacks since 1999. I'm going to be the 21st and the guy that brought them the Super Bowl." - JFF
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Old 04-06-2012, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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Solid argument about the state of the Browns, sure, throw your hands up because you have no argument that offers any real hope for the team.
I am a Brown's fan a lot longer than you, I can actually remember when the Brown's were a great team and did things the right way. You on the other hand are like so many fans on chronic losing teams, you continue to believe that some miracle will happen and that the team will miraculously find stars with incompetent people in charge. Good luck, with you way of thinking, you are going to need a hell of a lot of it.
And you have some of the most asinine posts I have ever seen related to the Browns ever. You are completely pessimistic in almost everything you say (maybe rightfully so with the Browns).

It doesn't matter how long you have been a fan of a team for, that gets you absolutely nothing. I have been an Indians fan more than most people and grew up on baseball, however that doesn't mean younger fans don't understand the game better than I do right now in this day and age and follow it more closely than I do.

Anyways, let's stay on topic and stop the war of words and talk about the excellent franchise that is the Cleveland Browns and their amazing free agent run this year, and analyze what we are going to do with our 4,738,201 draft picks.
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"If something happens, and it's the Cleveland Browns, I'm going to pour my heart out for the Dawg Pound and try to win a Super Bowl for Cleveland," he said. "I don't care if they've had 20 starting quarterbacks since 1999. I'm going to be the 21st and the guy that brought them the Super Bowl." - JFF

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Old 04-06-2012, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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Again I agree. I don't see it at a positive, but that is what I see Colt McCoy's ceiling as. Maybe a bit better if we get lucky and he gets some playmakers... I could see Colt being better with some confidence in the guys he is throwing the ball to, but I doubt he ends up being anything better than a career back-up.

Hopefully I am wrong, would love to see him succeed.
Colt's lack of a great arm means you need a specific kind of playmaker for him to take advantage of. Someone with major YAC ability.

For instance, Julio Jones looks like he could be a hell of a playmaker, but I don't know that he'll ever maximize it in Atlanta with Ryan at QB. Ryan also lacks the ideal physical tools of a franchise QB (though his are better than McCoy's imo) If you cover the first 10 yards of the field and the medium-range middle of the field, you can completely choke Matt Ryan out. The Giants playoff game was a perfect example of it. They forced him outside and deep and Ryan just couldn't make plays happen.
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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And you have some of the most asinine posts I have ever seen related to the Browns ever. You are completely pessimistic in almost everything you say (maybe rightfully so with the Browns).

It doesn't matter how long you have been a fan of a team for, that gets you absolutely nothing. I have been an Indians fan more than most people and grew up on baseball, however that doesn't mean younger fans don't understand the game better than I do right now in this day and age and follow it more closely than I do.

Anyways, let's stay on topic and stop the war of words and talk about the excellent franchise that is the Cleveland Browns and their amazing free agent run this year, and analyze what we are going to do with our 4,738,201 draft picks.
Agreed but I notice you didn't give the same advice to Jason. We are all Brown's fans and want the best for the team but I am going to remain critical until I see substantial improvement in their win totals.

I'm not happy with the Brown's off season, I'm not prepared to accept Holmgren's excuses as to why he failed to acquire the Ram's 2nd overall pick in order to secure RG111. I'm really pis---d over his failure.

As for McCoy, the Browns play in a WCO which doesn't ask its QB to throw a deep ball very often, a QB in this system should be able to complete well over 60% of his passes to be effective and McCoy just hasn't gotten the job done and really doesn't have the arm strength to be consistent even in this short passing game system. He is nothing more than a solid career backup.

All the talk about Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincy crumbling is not the rhetoric I want to hear, because it is a very unlikely scenario with the solid GM's that Pittsburgh and Baltimore have and Cincy is a very young team. If we are going to beat these teams we will have to get the talent to compete and foremost is finding a franchise QB, something Holmgren blew this off season. I'm just very sad and yes, angry, for the state of my beloved Browns.
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