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Old 04-24-2012, 12:36 AM    (permalink
TACKLE
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Originally Posted by whatadai View Post
I think he's overrated and his head has grown too big.

Greg Cosell's past evaluations...

-Andy Dalton is a 4th round talent and needs a strong running game to be successful.
-Ranked CBs in 2011: 1. Jimmy Smith, 2. Patrick Peterson, 3. Prince Amukamura...4 days later he ranks his top 5 in 2011: 1. AJ Green, 2. Patrick Peterson, 3. Von Miller, 4. Marcel Dareus, 5. Nick Fairley
-Miami's Mike Pouncey would be a worse player than his brother, Pittsburgh's Maurkice Pouncey.
-Had Ponder and Stanzi as his 1 and 2 for the 2011 NFL draft
-Ranked Beck higher than Ponder and Dalton after the 2011 NFL draft
-Thought Henne and Beck would be starting QBs coming out of college.
-Thought JaMarcus Russell would be a great QB and that he threw well without planting his feet.

I'm too lazy to list more. But seriously...I wonder if he accidentally said Russell was great at throwing without planting his feet when he meant to say Russell was great at throwing at feet.
I don't know where you're going with that one. Maurkice is easily the better Pouncey. Chad Henne would have started almost three whole seasons in four years had he not gotten injured this year.

These credibility killing miscues aren't nearly as disastrous and damning as you're making them out to be.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TACKLE View Post
I don't know where you're going with that one. Maurkice is easily the better Pouncey. Chad Henne would have started almost three whole seasons in four years had he not gotten injured this year.

These credibility killing miscues aren't nearly as disastrous and damning as you're making them out to be.
Another thing worth mentioning is that there's no reason to believe that actual NFL teams' draft boards don't have similar mistakes. I know we all want to believe that our teams are managed by the smartest people in the universe, but every NFL team swings and misses on stuff like this. It's just that it's never publicized, since it doesn't matter if a team had Ricky Stanzi and Christian Ponder ranked above Cam Newton if that team doesn't draft any of those players.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:13 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
You dorks talking about how we are "missing the point" are missing the point. No one cares that he has a different view of some prospects. Whoopity ****. The point is that this isn't a mock. It's a big board dressed up like a mock. A mock, to most people is an attempt at accuracy. It is a prediction based on research. Cosell's "mock" is just a big board with explanations on his ratings and a little bit of team need thrown in to make it not quite a big board. It is pointless. I respect him as a talent evaluator, he's watched more tape than any of us on this board. But given all that, this is a pretty ****** representation of his efforts.
Everything you said about what this mock is - a dress thrown over player rankings - is exactly what Cosell said it was. He said it wasn't a traditional mock, you say you understand that this isn't a traditional mock and then critique him because this isn't a traditional mock. I think what is getting under people's skin is that he labeled it a "mock" and then didn't put it together in the cookie-cutter methodology that we all think of a mock being done in despite warnings a week in advance that his mock was in no way going to be a traditional mock.

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Old 04-24-2012, 01:18 AM    (permalink
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Lance Lewis made him his *****.
Whoa whoa whoa...he got beat by someone in a game?

****...I do have to re-think this.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:38 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
If you came on and said, "I've spent countless hours evaluating players on coach's tape, and I'm going to use a mock draft format to present and explain my rankings and evaluations of players," I don't think people would roast you.
To me a "mock draft" is exactly what it sounds like - a mock/pretend go at the draft. The draft isn't just about film, so any mock logically shouldn't be either. I'm not saying his opinion on the prospects is off or he doesn't have a worthy opinion based on his film study, but it just simply isn't a "mock draft". He may as well have scrapped the draft order and just done a ranking table. To me the usage of the term "mock draft" serves to purely grab some of the "mock draft" traffic that is surely surging on the Internet right now - if you're going to adopt the pick order from the real world then it doesn't really make sense to purposefully ignore other real world factors like character, team preference etc.

Splitting hairs I guess, but I'm bored and waiting for the draft so I have time to be picky.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:41 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Wrathman View Post
Everything you said about what this mock is - a dress thrown over player rankings - is exactly what Cosell said it was. He said it wasn't a traditional mock, you say you understand that this isn't a traditional mock and then critique him because this isn't a traditional mock. I think what is getting under people's skin is that he labeled it a "mock" and then didn't put it together in the cookie-cutter methodology that we all think of a mock being done in despite warnings a week in advance that his mock was in no way going to be a traditional mock.

I don't think someone effectively pointing out how pointless their work is before hand necessarily excuses them from criticisms pointing out how pointless their work is.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:03 AM    (permalink
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I don't think someone effectively pointing out how pointless their work is before hand necessarily excuses them from criticisms pointing out how pointless their work is.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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So, if he just made a big board of his top players with evaluations, you'd be ok, but the only issue is that he violated some sort of sanctity of the term "mock draft"?
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage View Post
I honestly think that if someone watches a serious amount of tape, the best way to write a mock draft is to draft as though you are the GM of all 32 teams, rather than trying to project what will actually happen.
I agree. I'm guessing that the teams that do their own mock drafts are using their own draft board when they do it.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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I think it's interesting how people have such vitriol for things that don't conform with their opinion. This guy has probably spent more time watching tape than anyone posting in this thread combined.

What's more, he supports his picks with thoughtful analysis.

I'll go further, probably 90% of you only look at youtube video highlights and read scouting reports of other analysts to make up your opinions. Yet you feel the need to criticize someone who has probably forgotten more football knowledge than you will ever know?

Come on now.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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Part of writing a mock is researching the teams that are going to do the picking, researching the off-field problems that may factor into the decision, researching the draft habits of GMs, their scouting dept's tendencies, etc. Saying who you would pick if you were the GM of 32 teams is not a mock draft, that's playing GM in fantasyland. There is no prediction, it's just your opinion on prospects. Which is what big boards and scouting reports are for.
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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I think Cosell is way too full of himself. Buddy, you're not the only one on planet earth that watches tape.
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
Saying who you would pick if you were the GM of 32 teams is not a mock draft
Why not?

As an adjective the word "mock" means either "not authentic or real, but without the intention to deceive " or "(of an examination, battle, etc.) arranged for training or practice, or performed as a demonstration"

So any sort of assignation of players to teams in draft order that does not attempt to convince the reader that this is what will happen, but instead what may happen should count as a "mock draft." You might not like it, but "I don't like this mock" is not the same as "this is not a mock."

I mean, a "mock trial" is not invalidated as a "mock trial" if the ersatz barristers fail to make all of the best arguments. It qualifies as a "mock trial" because it has the same form as an actual trial. Similarly, Cosell's "mock draft" qualifies because it has the form of the actual NFL draft (or at least the first round thereof.)

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Old 04-24-2012, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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So, if he just made a big board of his top players with evaluations, you'd be ok, but the only issue is that he violated some sort of sanctity of the term "mock draft"?
What's the point in even putting it in mock draft form?

Other then a publicity grab.
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Old 04-24-2012, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Like I said on the first page, my problem isn't that he did something different - I think trying new stuff is a good thing. My problem is that it doesn't really make sense.

If all you are doing is ranking players and discussing team needs, then make a big board and a list of team needs. I can match one to the other on my own.

Where does this get us? "Well, if things happen in a totally unrealistic fashion, this is how I think it would go..."? What good is that?

If the sole reason was to discuss his top rated players, a mock format that doesn't attempt to predict anything doesn't seem like the best tool to utilize.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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Why not?
Look two posts above yours.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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I think he's overrated and his head has grown too big.

Greg Cosell's past evaluations...

-Andy Dalton is a 4th round talent and needs a strong running game to be successful.
-Ranked CBs in 2011: 1. Jimmy Smith, 2. Patrick Peterson, 3. Prince Amukamura...4 days later he ranks his top 5 in 2011: 1. AJ Green, 2. Patrick Peterson, 3. Von Miller, 4. Marcel Dareus, 5. Nick Fairley
-Miami's Mike Pouncey would be a worse player than his brother, Pittsburgh's Maurkice Pouncey.
-Had Ponder and Stanzi as his 1 and 2 for the 2011 NFL draft
-Ranked Beck higher than Ponder and Dalton after the 2011 NFL draft
-Thought Henne and Beck would be starting QBs coming out of college.
-Thought JaMarcus Russell would be a great QB and that he threw well without planting his feet.

I'm too lazy to list more. But seriously...I wonder if he accidentally said Russell was great at throwing without planting his feet when he meant to say Russell was great at throwing at feet.
I agree. He has no problem making a bold prediction which is nice, but he is wrong far too often for me to give his bold predictions much credit. He comes across as a child playing a draft game and I have no idea why so many respect his opinion.

And you forgot, no QB last year including Cam Newton is worth a top 20 picks.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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Look two posts above yours.
That answers neither my question nor my assertion.

I assert that any assignation of players to teams in the order in which the NFL draft will proceed should be considered a "mock draft." Why not? It's not like this should be a high bar to achieve, since mocks are meaningless and done purely for entertainment value.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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That answers neither my question nor my assertion.

I assert that any assignation of players to teams in the order in which the NFL draft will proceed should be considered a "mock draft." Why not? It's not like this should be a high bar to achieve, since mocks are meaningless and done purely for entertainment value.
Not to mention that all mock drafts are wildly inaccurate; and in sum, most "serious" attempts at "predicting" how the first round will go are probably not going to be tremendously more accurate than what Cosell just did.

Most people's mock drafts are starting to violently unravel by the bottom of the top-10.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:28 PM    (permalink
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I agree. He has no problem making a bold prediction which is nice, but he is wrong far too often for me to give his bold predictions much credit. He comes across as a child playing a draft game and I have no idea why so many respect his opinion.

And you forgot, no QB last year including Cam Newton is worth a top 20 picks.
That's what I'm trying to say. All I ever hear him do is make bold predictions that are against the norm, kind of like a child crying for attention...and then the predictions fail. Then I hear about him again and his time watching film is always used as a basis for his credibility as a good NFL scout.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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That's what I'm trying to say. All I ever hear him do is make bold predictions that are against the norm, kind of like a child crying for attention...and then the predictions fail. Then I hear about him again and his time watching film is always used as a basis for his credibility as a good NFL scout.
The thing is, if you listen to scouts that are watching film and ignoring the media, their opinions are wildly different from one another. What we're used to in the media is more of a compromising set of player rankings where nobody deviates too much. For example, one scout quoted in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel last week said he'd take Cordy Glenn in the 5th round, while another called him the best pure guard in the draft. I don't think it's fair to rip on Cosell for his rankings being much different than popular opinion in some instances.
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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The thing is, if you listen to scouts that are watching film and ignoring the media, their opinions are wildly different from one another. What we're used to in the media is more of a compromising set of player rankings where nobody deviates too much. For example, one scout quoted in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel last week said he'd take Cordy Glenn in the 5th round, while another called him the best pure guard in the draft. I don't think it's fair to rip on Cosell for his rankings being much different than popular opinion in some instances.

I get that. I like the non-consensus picks. I just wish he would take off the training wheels.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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Just for fun - Greg Cosell will be doing a semi-live Q&A session Thursday over on Collinsworth's site (footballpros.com). They're setting up an open thread at 3PM EST for folks to post questions for Cosell to answer.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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So what you people are really whining about is the fact that he called it a mock, right? I just don't see what is so pointless about matching up his tape evaluations with his perception of team needs. Outside the top 5-10 picks, no mock ends up being accurate any way.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:28 AM    (permalink
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The thing is, if you listen to scouts that are watching film and ignoring the media, their opinions are wildly different from one another. What we're used to in the media is more of a compromising set of player rankings where nobody deviates too much. For example, one scout quoted in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel last week said he'd take Cordy Glenn in the 5th round, while another called him the best pure guard in the draft. I don't think it's fair to rip on Cosell for his rankings being much different than popular opinion in some instances.
I don't mind non-consensus picks...it just seems as if he does it on purpose sometimes to get more readers. What annoys me is that he always gets touted as some great scout when he's probably average. Considering that he supposedly watches more film than most scouts too...it just shows that he's not that good...or he's not looking for the right things in the tapes at least.
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