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Old 04-21-2012, 05:56 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
The LT position just isn't what it used to be. It's not. Even the elite LTs of this league get beat by the Wares, JPPs, Peppers of the world.

And look at the # of LTs taken in the 1st round of the last 4 years. I'd say about 75% of them have wound up being average players or disappointments. Think about that. The position is clearly being over drafted when you have that kind of failure rate.

It's having that failure rate bc LT just isn't what it used to be. And the perceived need for one is pushing inferior talent up draft boards.
The past 4 years have included Jake Long, Ryan Clady, Duane Brown, Brandon Albert, Eugene Monroe, Tyron Smith (future LT), and other guys who've played functionally well. There are plenty of busts, but coincidentally a lot of those guys are the bigger guys who were picked more for their run blocking and are playing RT right now like Gosder Cherilus, Andre Smith, Jason Smith, and others.

It's pretty much like any other position.
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:01 PM    (permalink
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Do you view a guy like Matt Kalil as an elite talent though? I'd argue that there are other players available that are better at their positions than Kalil. Yet Kalil is going top 3 bc of this perceived notion of the positional importance of the LT position.

My main issue is the failure rate of LTs coming out. Most of them coming out the past 4-5 years have been disappointments/busts in the 1st round. It's very clear to me that teams are reaching for LTs early and bc they are doing that, the failure rate is increasing.

It's all about getting talent, and if you pass on superior talent for the sake of having that LT, then you're making a mistake.
That is a decision that comes down to the GM. I honestly haven't scouted Kalil enough to know what kind of prospect he is, but if you feel that he's on an equal level with another guy at another position you go for it. It's a mistake to reach for a guy like Okung who nobody thought was a great prospect over Joe Haden, but at the same time if you're making a decision on a guy like Tyron Smith vs. a J.J. Watt or a Nick Fairley, and all things are pretty much equal you should go for Smith.
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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That is a decision that comes down to the GM. I honestly haven't scouted Kalil enough to know what kind of prospect he is, but if you feel that he's on an equal level with another guy at another position you go for it. It's a mistake to reach for a guy like Okung who nobody thought was a great prospect over Joe Haden, but at the same time if you're making a decision on a guy like Tyron Smith vs. a J.J. Watt or a Nick Fairley, and all things are pretty much equal you should go for Smith.
See that's where I disagree. I felt that the Cowboys should've went after Watt. I was actually pretty happy that they passed on him.

I think Watt has more impact than Smith does. And Smith is going to be great, but I still rather have Watt.

To me, the positional ranking goes:

1. QB
2. DE
2. CB
4. WR

And the rest are pretty much on par with each other. But I feel those 4 positions should take precedence over the rest if we're giving out positional values.
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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Yeah but imagine Joe Thomas protecting Peyton Manning, he would have that much more time to rape you in the pooper
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Do you view a guy like Matt Kalil as an elite talent though? I'd argue that there are other players available that are better at their positions than Kalil. Yet Kalil is going top 3 bc of this perceived notion of the positional importance of the LT position.

My main issue is the failure rate of LTs coming out. Most of them coming out the past 4-5 years have been disappointments/busts in the 1st round. It's very clear to me that teams are reaching for LTs early and bc they are doing that, the failure rate is increasing.

It's all about getting talent, and if you pass on superior talent for the sake of having that LT, then you're making a mistake.
I'm going to quote this and your other post, together

Just because left tackle prospects have been taken earlier than where they should have been doesn't deminish the value of the positon. In fact, it shows just how high to-this-day the value of having a top left tackle to a team is.

QBs are being taken higher now in the draft, because its cheaper now to take the risk of drafting one. Does that deminish the value of having a qb?

Plenty of pass rushing DTs have come into the leauge, but the number of pass rushing DEs is still greater. The odds of finding a 310 pound DT with the pass rushing abilities and quickness is a challenge. This still making the DT position a run dominate area

Yes there have been certain players that moved from the outside to the inside and the inside to the outside, but my point is if a prospect comes into the draft and doesn't have the feet, pass protection abilities, etc.. He is no longer considered able to play the left tackle position in the nfl. Why is the standards higher of the Left tackle position than the others?

Sure there are more talented prospects than Kalil, but as you said the value to the position he plays is greater than the others. Certain postions(DE, DT, leftT, and QB) will always be valued higher than others. Now more so than ever because you can afford to take one cheaper
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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See that's where I disagree. I felt that the Cowboys should've went after Watt. I was actually pretty happy that they passed on him.

I think Watt has more impact than Smith does. And Smith is going to be great, but I still rather have Watt.

To me, the positional ranking goes:

1. QB
2. DE
2. CB
4. WR

And the rest are pretty much on par with each other. But I feel those 4 positions should take precedence over the rest if we're giving out positional values.
I'm not going to split hairs on DE's vs. T's. I'd consider the value of LT's somewhere in that 2-5 range. If you look at the contracts and draft selections they're pretty much in that area.
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Funny. Bc not all GMs do draft LTs early. Many don't believe in it.

Reese has stated before 07 when we won our 1st SB that LT is an overrated position. So clearly he felt that way for awhile now. The Lions passed on Oher for a TE. The Falcons have not invested in a LT, they traded up for a WR instead. The list is plentiful of GMs who don't consider LT to be as big of a priority as you seem to believe.
The Giants have had their best OLman playing LT for some time. No David Diehl wasn't drafted that high but he plays close to an All Pro level so the Giants haven't felt the need to replace him.
Michael Oher is a RT and the Lions have a pretty solid LT in Backus and that is why they passed on Oher.
As for the Falcons, they drafted Sam Baker in round 1 to play LT, he was just injured all of last year.
The Colts had Glenn playing LT when they won a Super Bowl and with his retirement, Peyton has become banged up.
Pittsburgh went with a mediocre LT last couple of seasons and Roethlisberger suffered a serious injury this last season.
I have never seen a GM quoted as saying that the LT position isn't a top priority.
I see you consider a WR a top priority, the only GM I know who followed that belief is Matt Millen and his 0-16 Lions.
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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David Diehl is not an all pro....
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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The Giants have had their best OLman playing LT for some time. No David Diehl wasn't drafted that high but he plays close to an All Pro level so the Giants haven't felt the need to replace him.
Michael Oher is a RT and the Lions have a pretty solid LT in Backus and that is why they passed on Oher.
As for the Falcons, they drafted Sam Baker in round 1 to play LT, he was just injured all of last year.
The Colts had Glenn playing LT when they won a Super Bowl and with his retirement, Peyton has become banged up.
Pittsburgh went with a mediocre LT last couple of seasons and Roethlisberger suffered a serious injury this last season.
I have never seen a GM quoted as saying that the LT position isn't a top priority.
I see you consider a WR a top priority, the only GM I know who followed that belief is Matt Millen and his 0-16 Lions.

Huh?? Diehl is not our best offensive lineman.
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Ok, let's say that Left Tackles are overvalued and they shouldn't be drafted let's say in the top 5 or ahead of an equally talented CB, WR or QB. What's their true value then? Where do you pick Matt Kalil and be satisfied with the selection?
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Some much for anybody who thinks OG's are important, Castro fell to #24 because GM's just don't value OG's while Minny robbed Cleveland blind and made absolutely sure they retained the rights to Kalil.
H..mmm, 2 QB's then a LT, sure puts to rest the opinion that LT's aren't next to the QB in value on offense.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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What are you talking about? 2 Gs were drafted in the 1st round, and 2 OTs were taken in the 1st round.

And the majority of these "1st round OTs" all fell to the 2nd round. Martin, Adams, Glenn, Massie. All are available in the 2nd round.

Zeitler, who was thought to be a early 2nd got taken in the 1st.

Even Reiff fell in the draft, when he was perceived to be a top 10 pick.

So again, wth are you talking about?
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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What are you talking about? 2 Gs were drafted in the 1st round, and 2 OTs were taken in the 1st round.

And the majority of these "1st round OTs" all fell to the 2nd round. Martin, Adams, Glenn, Massie. All are available in the 2nd round.

Zeitler, who was thought to be a early 2nd got taken in the 1st.

Even Reiff fell in the draft, when he was perceived to be a top 10 pick.

So again, wth are you talking about?
The OG's went late in round 1 no matter how good they were perceived to be. Kalil was the only LT who got a high rating in this draft and he went top 5. Even a rather mediocre LT prospect Reiff went before the top OG prospect DeCastro so what the heck are you talking about.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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The OG's went late in round 1 no matter how good they were perceived to be. Kalil was the only LT who got a high rating in this draft and he went top 5. Even a rather mediocre LT prospect Reiff went before the top OG prospect DeCastro so what the heck are you talking about.
Reiff fell in the draft.

Zeitler went higher than expected.

Most of the OTs in this draft fell out of the 1st round. If anything, the perception that OTs are overrated is starting to ring true within league circles, bc they are shying away from reaching for OT talent like they did in years past.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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Reiff fell in the draft.

Zeitler went higher than expected.

Most of the OTs in this draft fell out of the 1st round. If anything, the perception that OTs are overrated is starting to ring true within league circles, bc they are shying away from reaching for OT talent like they did in years past.
Dream on???? Glenn is simply fat and Adams failed a drug test which is why they both fell. Reiff has short arms for an OT which is why he fell. There was no reason why DeCastro fell except the position he plays. OG's have always been contenders for late round picks and nothing changed in this draft.
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Word of warning: you're using the overall grades and rankings of the tackles. You may want to focus on the pass protection grades, instead.
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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You bastards started this up again without me, I don't have time to read through all this now, but:

"I will be back"
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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Just because it happened doesn't mean its the right decision. Do people really think that Kalil being drafted highly really negates the idea that left tackles are overrated? If anything it reinforces it.
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by broncosfan View Post
Ok, let's say that Left Tackles are overvalued and they shouldn't be drafted let's say in the top 5 or ahead of an equally talented CB, WR or QB. What's their true value then? Where do you pick Matt Kalil and be satisfied with the selection?
I think the key here should be that OL should now be drafted in terms of best overall OL rather than LTs first, then guards, centers, etc. or whatever sort of order one might have.

In the case of this years draft, DeCastro is probably the best OL and should have been drafted first. Instead, he falls to the Steelers. The Steelers could certainly use a LT, and since they have none, by the argument that LT is more important, they should have grabbed one of the LTs available.

You can argue that OGs can be found later in the draft, but this is only because of this preconceived notion about the blindside. If teams started drafting OL without bias to position, it wouldn't necessarily be that way.

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Some much for anybody who thinks OG's are important, Castro fell to #24 because GM's just don't value OG's while Minny robbed Cleveland blind and made absolutely sure they retained the rights to Kalil.
H..mmm, 2 QB's then a LT, sure puts to rest the opinion that LT's aren't next to the QB in value on offense.
More like 2 QBs then a RB then a LT.

Clearly by your logic RB>LT

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It never hurts to have elite talent on your team, and the fact that we're debating this is strange to me.
I don't think anyone is arguing that an elite LT hurts you. I'd take an elite LT over an average guard obviously.

My argument is that a dominant OL is important and having elite talents anywhere on the OL adds to that dominance. Whether it be an elite LT, OG, C or RT doesn't matter. Certainly if you have an elite tackle you may wish to put them on the left side if possible but that doesn't change the fact that a teams best pass rusher can't just switch to the right side if he struggles against the LT.

So this idea that a top LT prospect is more valuable than a top OG prospect is ridiculous.

If I was the Vikings and needed a dominant offensive lineman I would have taken DeCastro as he is the best OL in this draft and would add more to the net talent of my OL than Kalil would have.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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I don't think anyone is arguing that an elite LT hurts you. I'd take an elite LT over an average guard obviously.

My argument is that a dominant OL is important and having elite talents anywhere on the OL adds to that dominance. Whether it be an elite LT, OG, C or RT doesn't matter. Certainly if you have an elite tackle you may wish to put them on the left side if possible but that doesn't change the fact that a teams best pass rusher can't just switch to the right side if he struggles against the LT.

So this idea that a top LT prospect is more valuable than a top OG prospect is ridiculous.

If I was the Vikings and needed a dominant offensive lineman I would have taken DeCastro as he is the best OL in this draft and would add more to the net talent of my OL than Kalil would have.
I'm not starting this with you again. I already addressed this exact point with BBD earlier in the thread. We will never agree on this issue, and I don't think this draft says anything conclusive on the subject either.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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The argument is that the impact left tackles have on the game is significantly lower than advertised.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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The argument is that the impact left tackles have on the game is significantly lower than advertised.
Since everyone has recently taken this opinion, they have started to be undervalued.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:05 PM    (permalink
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I'm not starting this with you again. I already addressed this exact point with BBD earlier in the thread. We will never agree on this issue, and I don't think this draft says anything conclusive on the subject either.
Awwww come on :( please :P

Can I ask who you would prefer? DeCastro or Kalil
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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I think the key here should be that OL should now be drafted in terms of best overall OL rather than LTs first, then guards, centers, etc. or whatever sort of order one might have.

In the case of this years draft, DeCastro is probably the best OL and should have been drafted first. Instead, he falls to the Steelers. The Steelers could certainly use a LT, and since they have none, by the argument that LT is more important, they should have grabbed one of the LTs available.

You can argue that OGs can be found later in the draft, but this is only because of this preconceived notion about the blindside. If teams started drafting OL without bias to position, it wouldn't necessarily be that way.



More like 2 QBs then a RB then a LT.

Clearly by your logic RB>LT



I don't think anyone is arguing that an elite LT hurts you. I'd take an elite LT over an average guard obviously.

My argument is that a dominant OL is important and having elite talents anywhere on the OL adds to that dominance. Whether it be an elite LT, OG, C or RT doesn't matter. Certainly if you have an elite tackle you may wish to put them on the left side if possible but that doesn't change the fact that a teams best pass rusher can't just switch to the right side if he struggles against the LT.

So this idea that a top LT prospect is more valuable than a top OG prospect is ridiculous.

If I was the Vikings and needed a dominant offensive lineman I would have taken DeCastro as he is the best OL in this draft and would add more to the net talent of my OL than Kalil would have.
Too bad not another GM drafting in the top 23 spots agreed with you, that's why Decastro lasted till pick 24. I'll take their opinion over yours every day of the week. You really have zero facts to back up your argument, it is all just your opinion which really counts for nothing in the end. Nobody at the NFL level is going to follow your advise so you really have no argument at all.
If an OG like DeCastro cannot go top 10, then where is your evidence that your opinion has merit???? I can show you a hundred examples of LT's getting drafted high in the draft, what can you offer except that it is a tough position to play and not all of them were stars.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:34 PM    (permalink
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The argument is that the impact left tackles have on the game is significantly lower than advertised.
Says who??? Certainly 23 GM's passed on DeCastro while only 3 passed on Kalil and Cleveland already has an All Pro LT, so where is the evidence???
Sure, QB's are more important than LT's and there are a couple of defensive positions which are just as important as LT's, but there is no evidence that NFL GM's think LT's are overrated, that is just a figment of some people's imagination.
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