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Old 04-28-2012, 08:41 AM    (permalink
Rosebud
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I do like that all of the work that makes other QBs "not ready to start" doesn't count for Weeden because somehow being 28 makes someone automatically mature. I should probably start calling people and letting them know that they're mature.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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Andrew Luck is graduating from one of the truly elite schools in the world, with a 3.5 GPA. RGIII, Russell Wilson, Austin Davis, Case Keenum, and Rainbow Fingers have all taken grad school coursework. Sports message boards seriously underestimate the degree of maturity that these guys have displayed.

I agree that the average 28 year old is much, much more mature than the average 22 year old. But I don't think that necessarily applies to NFL-level quarterbacks. Every single one of these guys is an extreme outlier. They're among the top-120 or so people in the world at their given profession.

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Old 04-28-2012, 09:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by raiderz4life View Post
I will enjoy drinking a beer watching Woodley or Harrison or T-Sizzle beating the **** out of Weeden and him crappinv his pants in a Gabbert-esque way and giggling my freaking ass off.
Really now. Why would a Raider fan be concerned with games between the Squealers and Browns? Not to mention, the Browns are building a team that will be much improved, which will show itself in wins in 2013 and possibly even 2012, and the Squealers are not a flawless team. Weeden will take his lumps as all QB's do, but should be fine in time.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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Andrew Luck is graduating from one of the truly elite school in the world, with a 3.5 GPA. RGIII, Russell Wilson, Austin Davis, Case Keenum, and Rainbow Fingers have all taken grad school coursework. Sports message boards seriously underestimate the degree of maturity that these guys have displayed.

I agree that the average 28 year old is much, much more mature than the average 22 year old. But I don't think that necessarily applies to NFL-level quarterbacks. Every single one of these guys is an extreme outlier. They're among the top-120 or so people in the world at their given profession.
The **** you talking about. If the average 28 year old is more mature than the average 22 year old then LOGICALLY, Weeden is Budda's latest incarnation.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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I do like that all of the work that makes other QBs "not ready to start" doesn't count for Weeden because somehow being 28 makes someone automatically mature. I should probably start calling people and letting them know that they're mature.
It'll take Weeden time to adjust to NFL play, like it does any other QB. Even Aikmen and Peyton Manning had a rough ride early in their careers.

Weeden does come off as a mature guy with a good head on his shoulders. That will help him early on.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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Really now. Why would a Raider fan be concerned with games between the Squealers and Browns? Not to mention, the Browns are building a team that will be much improved, which will show itself in wins in 2013 and possibly even 2012, and the Squealers are not a flawless team. Weeden will take his lumps as all QB's do, but should be fine in time.
Yeah, that's where Weeden's lucky, because of his age he won't take enough lumps to have any long term concussion problems, so just a year or two after he retires, he'll be fine.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

Last edited by Rosebud : 04-28-2012 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:52 AM    (permalink
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It'll take Weeden time to adjust to NFL play, like it does any other QB. Even Aikmen and Peyton Manning had a rough ride early in their careers.

Weeden does come off as a mature guy with a good head on his shoulders. That will help him early on.
He's got a lot to work on that most franchise QBs need to work on, but that's before you factor in the extra work he'll need to learn how to handle pass rushers, how he'll need to learn that his receivers won't win the battle for the ball everytime so he'll actually need to learn how to put the ball where his receiver is between it and the defender, and how he'll need to learn everything about making the type of at the line adjustments that Andrew Luck and even Ryan Tannehill have already been asked to make. He's just got too much work to do for a guy who'll turn 29 this season and has serious damage to his shoulder.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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Most top QB prospects are 'mature' IMO, 22 going on 30 from a psychological and game preparation point of view. The NFL is a different animal however, and hard to prepare for in live game situations until you're actually on the field, so generically calling Weeden 'mature' without explanation is inherently vague.

If Weeden were a 28 year old former combat vet who then played three years at Okl State, then I would say his maturity gives him a distinct advantage. A guy like that isn't going to be rattled by an all out blitz.

When you watch Weeden play and break down the throws he makes, his consistency, his redzone efficiency, I think his actual game is more 'mature' and will need less re-engineering to get him up to speed in the NFL.
Same thing with Luck and RGIII IMO.

Tannehill's game is still raw as is the case with the other QB prospects in this draft.

If the Browns want the quickest return on their QB investment from this draft and can't draft Luck/RGIII, the next best guy who should be ready earlier to play QB at an NFL level is Weeden.

Some of you are focusing on where these younger guys are going to be when they turn 28, all I'm looking at is how developed they are as prospects RIGHT NOW.

THe Browns want to replace their current starting QB and Weeden IMO is one of the few rookie QBs who could come in and immediately upgrade the play at that position for Cleveland.
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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Who knows, maybe they just needed a guy who could occasionally make a throw but have his primary job be just to handoff to Trent and not **** it up.
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Who knows, maybe they just needed a guy who could occasionally make a throw but have his primary job be just to handoff to Trent and not **** it up.
Which would make Cleveland more competitive on offense than they were last year. But I think they're going to run the hell out of Trent Richardson this season, 350-400+ carries. Ouch.
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Old 04-28-2012, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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Really now. Why would a Raider fan be concerned with games between the Squealers and Browns? Not to mention, the Browns are building a team that will be much improved, which will show itself in wins in 2013 and possibly even 2012, and the Squealers are not a flawless team. Weeden will take his lumps as all QB's do, but should be fine in time.
Sorry but it's never ok to say, "Yeah we know we're going to suck next year, so let's pick up whoever the heck we feel like even if we have bigger needs and better value available".
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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keep appealing to authority; it makes it even funnier when you bash said authority.
i obviously have never met brandon weeden, i am going off of what i can only assume is the same source of information that every other layman is going off of, which is college stats, some highlights, and wow, the fact that he is older and has injury history. you can interpret these issues to be "OMG SUCH A BIG RED FLAG" or not, it doesn't matter in regard to the point i was arguing.

that wasn't the purpose of my prior posts, which was to point out the discordance between people supposedly being mad that the browns front office went after a QB when they have "so many holes to fill", which would imply that they felt quarterback wasn't a hole to fill. you can disagree that weeden isn't worthy of filling that hole, that is not the issue here. he could go on to be an inconsequential quarterback, and that would reflect on the front office's ability to evaluate talent, but nobody has any idea so the point is completely moot at this stage.

also, calling people 'mel kiper clones' has nothing to do with appeal to authority, it was making a joke. and really, saying that nfl scouts 'know more about evaluating quarterbacks' than a layman is more fact than anything; so while playing the 'argumentum ad verecundiam' card sounds great, i never explicitly stated any conclusion about the supposed 'validity' of their evaluations.

really, weeden could suck, the pick could end up being awful, but the fact is that they needed a quarterback and drafted a quarterback who they apparently liked. to say that it was a terrible pick before he has ever played is completely based on speculation. it is this overwhelming negative response based on only speculation (OMG HE COULD BE 30 AND JUST START TO BE PLAYING WELL, IN MADDEN YEARS HE RETIRES SOON AFTER THAT or OMG HIS SHOULDER'S DEAD) that makes me feel the need to step in and throw stones in the other direction. really it's just a big internet circlejerk, which i will contribute to by throwing in random caps lock strawman arguments that you personally may or may not agree with, but are actually things that people have said without any real evidence to support their claims.

comments like: "i am now embarrassed to say i am a browns fan".... really? taking a quarterback that is older than usual is what did it?

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Old 04-28-2012, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Sorry but it's never ok to say, "Yeah we know we're going to suck next year, so let's pick up whoever the heck we feel like even if we have bigger needs and better value available".
You're reading into things. It takes time to build a winner, and Holmgren and Heckert had a lot of building to do. You give it your all to win every year, but anyone who watched the Browns' offense last year knows they are unlikely to be a playoff team next season. They picked Weeden to help score more points this year than they did last year. If he performs as they expect him to, then the Browns will have an outside shot at the playoffs next season.

Besides, if the Browns front office felt they had to have a better starter, then what greater need was there?

Wow, the Browns just drafted a 6'7" OG from Colorado. Weeden will have an easier time seeing over him than McCoy will.
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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One way to look at it is this: Would you (or should I say, would an NFL team) trade a late first round pick (like #22 overall) for a 29 or 30 year old franchise QB who could be a part of a great offense? I think that factored into the Browns thinking when they just bit the bullet and went with Weeden at 22.

Of course we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Titans didn't take Kendall Wright - in which case the Browns' first two picks would've been Richardson and Wright and they would've been critically acclaimed for adding two big time playmakers with their first two picks - and then they would've taken Weeden either at 37 or via a trade up into the late first.

All in all, if Weeden turns out to be a good QB (and I think he'll be pretty good when he starts to figure out the NFL game) and the offense begins to hum with him and Richardson in the backfield no one will say drafting a 29 year old rookie QB was that big of a deal.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:30 PM    (permalink
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One way to look at it is this: Would you (or should I say, would an NFL team) trade a late first round pick (like #22 overall) for a 29 or 30 year old franchise QB who could be a part of a great offense?
Except that instead of a "franchise QB", we got a rookie. The problem with his age for me isn't that he's too old to play the position and has a limited shelf life, it's that if he doesn't develop immediately, he'll get dumped much quicker than a young guy. He's not going to get the development time that Eli/Rodgers/Brees got. No one develops 30 year olds.

If we end up doing as poorly as our schedule indicates we could and end up with the #1 pick because Weeden struggles like most rookies, there's a very, very legitimate chance that, provided there's a QB standout in 2013, we'll be using that pick on a QB ala the Panthers with Jimmah/Cam in 2010/2011.

If that's the case, we just flushed a stud at OL or a dynamic playmaker on offense down the crapper for what many realized beforehand was a poor investment. I hope for our sake Weeden pans out and gives us the 8 years number everyone has been inventing. If he doesn't, there's nothing but ugly and difficult choices ahead.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:32 PM    (permalink
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Weinke 2.0
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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So what go to receiver is Cleveland going to field that will be like what he had with Justin Blackmon at Oklahoma State?
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:51 PM    (permalink
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Weinke 2.0
in the same way that robert griffin III is aaron brooks 2.0
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:20 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying that Aaron Brooks was a great QB, because he clearly wasn't. From 2001-2004, though, he was a very legit NFL starter in Mike McCarthy's offense. He had four straight seasons of 3500+ yards, and his peak QB rating was 88.8 (good for seventh in the NFL, that season). Each of those four years, he finished in the top 10 in passing yards. He was even tied for second in the NFL in passing touchdowns during the 2002 season (Tom Brady led the NFL with 28 TD passes; while Brett Favre, Brooks, and Peyton Manning each had 27).

By the standards laid out in this thread, Brooks would have been well worth a first round pick because the Saints got five years of solid starting QB play out of him.

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Old 04-30-2012, 09:54 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
Except that instead of a "franchise QB", we got a rookie.
Every franchise QB starts as a rookie.

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Originally Posted by robert pancake gallery View Post
in the same way that robert griffin III is aaron brooks 2.0
No Colt McCoy II.

J

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Old 04-30-2012, 11:34 PM    (permalink
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Indisputable proof that Brandon Weeden is more mature than all other QBs
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:03 AM    (permalink
robert pancake gallery
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Originally Posted by WCH View Post
I'm not saying that Aaron Brooks was a great QB, because he clearly wasn't. From 2001-2004, though, he was a very legit NFL starter in Mike McCarthy's offense. He had four straight seasons of 3500+ yards, and his peak QB rating was 88.8 (good for seventh in the NFL, that season). Each of those four years, he finished in the top 10 in passing yards. He was even tied for second in the NFL in passing touchdowns during the 2002 season (Tom Brady led the NFL with 28 TD passes; while Brett Favre, Brooks, and Peyton Manning each had 27).

By the standards laid out in this thread, Brooks would have been well worth a first round pick because the Saints got five years of solid starting QB play out of him.
the point of my comparison was that you were comparing a first round prospect to a later (4th) round prospect... i guess if you honestly feel weeden should have been taken no earlier than the 3rd round then that is your opinion; although weeden's credentials were obviously worse than those of RG3 by a long shot, so it seemed fair to choose a better "fourth rounder" to compare him to. and, you know, the race thing that everyone loves so much when it comes to projecting quarterbacks.

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Old 05-01-2012, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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Indisputable proof that Brandon Weeden is more mature than all other QBs
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a true american, i'm sold
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:06 AM    (permalink
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:09 AM    (permalink
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I'm pretty shocked at this pick still, to be honest. Browns needed a QB it's true so it's tough to argue against an upgrade but when you have as many holes as they did, to spend first rounders on a RB/QB is arguably a little short-sighted, especially in that division where if you don't have serious beef on both sides of the ball you are going to get pushed around.
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