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Old 05-20-2012, 03:24 PM    (permalink
Saints-Tigers
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I still feel like if you have to say "well the team needs to do this, this and this for him to be elite" then he will never be elite. Sam's best case is somewhere between Alex Smith and Matt Ryan if he totally pans out and stays healthy.
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Old 05-20-2012, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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I still feel like if you have to say "well the team needs to do this, this and this for him to be elite" then he will never be elite. Sam's best case is somewhere between Alex Smith and Matt Ryan if he totally pans out and stays healthy.
That's such a huge range...and Matt Ryan has one more year to prove it IMO.
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Old 05-21-2012, 07:55 AM    (permalink
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I still feel like if you have to say "well the team needs to do this, this and this for him to be elite" then he will never be elite. Sam's best case is somewhere between Alex Smith and Matt Ryan if he totally pans out and stays healthy.
That's a pretty good way to put it as even if Sam lives up to his potential I don't see him getting past Matt Ryan's level. Who puts up good stats, puts his time in the playoffs but needs help to ever win a superbowl
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:12 AM    (permalink
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I still feel like if you have to say "well the team needs to do this, this and this for him to be elite" then he will never be elite. Sam's best case is somewhere between Alex Smith and Matt Ryan if he totally pans out and stays healthy.
We'd be making the same argument for Matt Stafford if he didn't have megatron and there's people already ready to put him in their top 5s. *shrug*

The same arguments where being made about Eli needing less ******** receivers. About Big Ben needing to learn to carry his offense and not just provide occasional big plays. Rodgers needing to speed up his deliver if the Packers weren't going to improve their OL. Every QBs needs tools to succeed and that applies to elite QBs to. Give any QB what Sam Bradford has been working with and they will not put up an elite season.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

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Old 05-21-2012, 09:31 AM    (permalink
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We'd be making the same argument for Matt Stafford if he didn't have megatron and there's people already ready to put him in their top 5s. *shrug*

The same arguments where being made about Eli needing less ******** receivers. About Big Ben needing to learn to carry his offense and not just provide occasional big plays. Rodgers needing to speed up his deliver if the Packers weren't going to improve their OL. Every QBs needs tools to succeed and that applies to elite QBs to. Give any QB what Sam Bradford has been working with and they will not put up an elite season.
Stafford had over 5,000 yards and 40 TD's and carried the lions to the playoffs. Brees and Rogers just had better #'s and that took the spotlight off him. Calvin is a great player but they don't come close to the playoffs without Stafford. Since we are on the subject of support casting the Lions have a average OL, terrible run game.

Yea Calvin is great but lets not act like he is the only reason they are winning. TE/WR have little outcome on the games. When Gronk got hurt for the superbowl the line moved 0.5 points
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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I'm not saying Stafford would be terrible, but he wouldn't be close to elite if you took Calvin off that team. Does that mean that with a quality supporting group he couldn't become elite? No, and that was the point I was making.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:10 AM    (permalink
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I'm not saying Stafford would be terrible, but he wouldn't be close to elite if you took Calvin off that team. Does that mean that with a quality supporting group he couldn't become elite? No, and that was the point I was making.
I get what you are saying that bc any QB is going to be better with a good supporting cast. But a elite QB will put up stats and win games no matter his supporting cast.

Part of the blame does go to the rams bc they had a chance to give him some elite players in the last draft. But they keep on trading back and brought up 2nd and 3rd tier players. Though they do have a chance to make up for that in the next 2 years.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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I get what you are saying that bc any QB is going to be better with a good supporting cast. But a elite QB will put up stats and win games no matter his supporting cast.

Part of the blame does go to the rams bc they had a chance to give him some elite players in the last draft. But they keep on trading back and brought up 2nd and 3rd tier players. Though they do have a chance to make up for that in the next 2 years.
But how many QBs become elite in their sophomore season. I'm not arguing Sam Bradford is already great and just needs to stay healthy so he can have a monster year the way Stafford did, but I'm arguing against the notion that he can never become elite. His arm strength concerns are well overplayed, it's to the lower end of top NFL guys, but it's not weak like Colt McCoy's or post-surgery Chad Pennington, when he's attacked down the field his balls don't flutter, he doesn't need to sky them and they get where their going with good pace. His arm is absolutely no worse than Brees' and Brady's were when they first broke out. He's also got quick feet and a good throwing motion, if he doesn't break from all the pressure he's got the ability to slide around in the pocket very well. His accuracy and feel for passing are strengths and he's a smart kid. He needs to consistently improve, but so does every QB that ever becomes elite, the tools for Bradford are there, he's looked good when healthy and that team has a lot of ammunition to drastically up the talent level around him. The Rams won't be passing SanFran and Seattle next season, but the future is far from grim in St Louis.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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Sam Bradford deserves a couple more seasons before the Rams get really serious about trying someone else at quarterback; maybe Jeff Fisher decides to add a veteran backup if Bradford doesn't make some serious strides forward this year but this will be the third offense Bradford has learned in three years so it may not be fair to evaluate him on this season alone. So far he hasn't made much of an impact (low completion percentage, YPA, high turnover rate) but the financial investment is too high to give up already and St. Louis won't find a more promising option without investing a top draft pick.
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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Who were the 4 other better offensive players on those OU offenses when Bradford was the starter?

There sure aren't in the NFL doing jack.
Bradford maxed out Stoops' offense and it's never looked the same before or since. He made reads that most QBs don't in that OU spread. I don't buy that Bradford was 'handing off' to his WRs at OU.

He elevated the play of that entire unit by himself.
DeMarco Murray, Trent Williams and Jermaine Gresham are certainly doing something in the NFL. More than "jack", and I think you could argue that they are doing more than Bradford has, or at least flashed the elite / borderline elite ability that Bradford hasn‘t. Gresham is already in the discussions for one of the Top 5 TEs in the NFL. Murray has looked pretty special. He has exploded onto the NFL scene much like he did in his college spring game. Williams has the potential to be a Pro Bowl player, and was named offensive co-captain in his second season. Those guys are all NFL starters and they’re all pretty good players. They’re guys who were great college players, which is more to my original point.

Ryan Broyles was a pretty good college WR. He only holds the FBS career receptions record. Juaquin Iglesias (3rd Rounder) and Manuel Johnson were pretty solid as well. Chris Brown was a pretty good compliment to Murray when they both ran for 1,000+ yards in the same record breaking season.

Phil Loadholt (2nd Rounder) was an All-Everything offensive linemen and Duke Robinson (5th Rounder) was a highly regarded prospect entering the draft due to all his college accolades (2x All-American).

That team was stacked. Donald Stephenson went in 3rd round this year as well from that offensive line. And I didn't even get to the defensive side of the ball.

My point wasn't supposed to be taken literally, but noted that the offensive talent was not only incredible for the college game, but historically impressive. That was one of the greatest offenses in the history of college football. Bradford had something to do with that -- no question about it -- but there were also some pretty good players on those teams and a scheme / hurry-up system that feasted on weak opposing Big 12 defenses. When you watched him, it should have been something worth noting, or something that should have raised a little red flag.

I always said it was difficult to watch Bradford, in the same way that it was difficult to scout Cam Newton. You could watch an entire game and see, maybe (MAYBE), 5 throws that were NFL type reads + throws. Guys were so wide open that I felt you could stick anyone behind the center and the offense would put up 40 points a game (Then Landry Jones became a 1st round talent as well. Who knew that was going to happen?).

I remember thinking just how boring it was to watch Bradford. I was hardly ever impressed with him. The only really impressive game I saw from Bradford was the BCS Championship game. He was actually getting hit and making throws into coverage … like consistently.
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Cross between Alex Smith and Matt Ryan.

EDIT: Just realized Saints-Tigers said exactly this at the top of the page.

=FACT.

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Old 05-21-2012, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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BB, I'm talking about skill position talent.
Iglesias have been a marginal NFL player. Malcolm Kelly is out of the league. Chris Brown never played in the NFL. Manuel Johnson is MIA. Broyles is still trying to make an NFL roster this summer.

Greshman and Murray are the only NFL caliber skill position talent that Bradford played with at OU.

You're correct to argue Bradford played behind one of the better Olines in college football, which allowed him to maximize great college, but marginal pro talent at the skill positions.
I still contend that Bradford was the BEST offensive player on those Sooners football teams.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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Stafford's tools and play are just substantially superior to Bradford's though. Even Megatron is going to struggle if your pass gets their so slow and late that the entire secondary isalready there.

Great QBs are great. They need a great supporting cast to win consistently, but great QBs look great even in ****** situations.
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:19 AM    (permalink
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edit - im deleting this as I didnt see you name Duke RObinson at first

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DeMarco Murray, Trent Williams and Jermaine Gresham are certainly doing something in the NFL. More than "jack", and I think you could argue that they are doing more than Bradford has, or at least flashed the elite / borderline elite ability that Bradford hasn‘t. Gresham is already in the discussions for one of the Top 5 TEs in the NFL. Murray has looked pretty special. He has exploded onto the NFL scene much like he did in his college spring game. Williams has the potential to be a Pro Bowl player, and was named offensive co-captain in his second season. Those guys are all NFL starters and they’re all pretty good players. They’re guys who were great college players, which is more to my original point.

Ryan Broyles was a pretty good college WR. He only holds the FBS career receptions record. Juaquin Iglesias (3rd Rounder) and Manuel Johnson were pretty solid as well. Chris Brown was a pretty good compliment to Murray when they both ran for 1,000+ yards in the same record breaking season.

Phil Loadholt (2nd Rounder) was an All-Everything offensive linemen and Duke Robinson (5th Rounder) was a highly regarded prospect entering the draft due to all his college accolades (2x All-American).

That team was stacked. Donald Stephenson went in 3rd round this year as well from that offensive line. And I didn't even get to the defensive side of the ball.

My point wasn't supposed to be taken literally, but noted that the offensive talent was not only incredible for the college game, but historically impressive. That was one of the greatest offenses in the history of college football. Bradford had something to do with that -- no question about it -- but there were also some pretty good players on those teams and a scheme / hurry-up system that feasted on weak opposing Big 12 defenses. When you watched him, it should have been something worth noting, or something that should have raised a little red flag.

I always said it was difficult to watch Bradford, in the same way that it was difficult to scout Cam Newton. You could watch an entire game and see, maybe (MAYBE), 5 throws that were NFL type reads + throws. Guys were so wide open that I felt you could stick anyone behind the center and the offense would put up 40 points a game (Then Landry Jones became a 1st round talent as well. Who knew that was going to happen?).

I remember thinking just how boring it was to watch Bradford. I was hardly ever impressed with him. The only really impressive game I saw from Bradford was the BCS Championship game. He was actually getting hit and making throws into coverage … like consistently.
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:58 AM    (permalink
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I'm not saying Stafford would be terrible, but he wouldn't be close to elite if you took Calvin off that team. Does that mean that with a quality supporting group he couldn't become elite? No, and that was the point I was making.
Ugh, I hate this argument. He came into a team that was 0-16. The next season, the team wins only 2 games (both Stafford starts) but he was injured for half the season. His second year, he played only 3 games and the team goes 6-10. His first healthy season, they go 10-6 and make the playoffs. As for Calvin, his numbers were okay during his first few years. But they weren't great. Some people were even calling him a slight disappointment. A full season under Stafford, he increased his career high numbers by 18 receptions, 350 yards, and 6 TDs.
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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BB, I'm talking about skill position talent.
Iglesias have been a marginal NFL player. Malcolm Kelly is out of the league. Chris Brown never played in the NFL. Manuel Johnson is MIA. Broyles is still trying to make an NFL roster this summer.

Greshman and Murray are the only NFL caliber skill position talent that Bradford played with at OU.

You're correct to argue Bradford played behind one of the better Olines in college football, which allowed him to maximize great college, but marginal pro talent at the skill positions.
I still contend that Bradford was the BEST offensive player on those Sooners football teams.
He's talking college talent/ability, not NFL. Tim Tebow and Reggie Bush are amongst the greatest college players ever and haven't exactly been so great in the NFL. There's a LOT of guys in college that are better suited for that type of game than others who become a lot better than them in the NFL.

I'm not saying it is or isn't the case for that Bradford thing.
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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I think Peyton showed he could be elite without a good supporting cast. This past season showed us that Peyton made several of our receivers look like superstars (Dallas Clark/Pierre Garçon/Hell even Blair White looked impressive).

However, I think it is very rare to find a QB that can pick up the slack of an entire team. I truly believe that Peyton did that. He had to put up tons of numbers to make up for the lack of running game. Also, the defense in Indy was always bad. When we finally won the superbowl it was because the defense finally ate their wheaties for that playoff stretch. Each season the Colts would put up 10-14 wins because of Peyton. As time went on it became more and more because of Peyton. This post comes from a Colts fan so take it with a grain of salt I guess.
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:09 PM    (permalink
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Give Bradford VJAx and Gates and he would look similar to Rivers.
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:07 AM    (permalink
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Give Bradford VJAx and Gates and he would look similar to Rivers.
Give me a Prada dress and I'd look like Beyonce.
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:21 AM    (permalink
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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It's amazing how quickly everyone's opinion on the guy has completely changed. Jeez, the guy had a sophomore slump on a terrible team with a new offense. Give the guy a break.

He has all the tools, and I saw NFL caliber reads and throws. One thing that most ppl don't pay attention to is, when you're evaluating a developing qb, forget the numbers. Throw the numbers out the window.

His development depends on his ability to read defenses, adjust plays, and make NFL throws.

I'll give you a scenario. 2 QBs who are currently developing both complete a 8 yard pass.

QB A does a hard count. From the hard count, he sees that it's a 4 man rush, and reads Cover 3 pre-snap based on the defense's formation, and the way the DBs dropped their hips after the hard count.

QB A motions his X inside, who's running an 8 yard curl, and hikes the ball, where the X wr runs his curl in the open hole in the zone, QB A looks off the safety to open up that hole more, than goes back to the X WR and completes the 8 yard pass.

Now QB B's scenario:

QB B has a 1 step drop quick slant called. He has 2 reads, the 1 step quick slant to his Z, and if that's covered, a check down to his RB in the flat. No need to read the defense, he's making college level progression type of reads. He hikes the ball, no change in protections, no change to the play, he just hikes it, his Z gets open, he hits his Z for 8 yards.

Now look at those 2 qbs. Both made 8 yard completions. On the stat sheet, both have 8 yards on the board.

But who was more impressive? That's why when you evaluate developing qbs, you don't look at numbers, you look at their ability to grow and develop an NFL caliber mind and make NFL caliber reads and throws.

I saw that from Sam Bradford. He'll be just fine. He just needs time and players.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
It's amazing how quickly everyone's opinion on the guy has completely changed. Jeez, the guy had a sophomore slump on a terrible team with a new offense. Give the guy a break.

He has all the tools, and I saw NFL caliber reads and throws. One thing that most ppl don't pay attention to is, when you're evaluating a developing qb, forget the numbers. Throw the numbers out the window.

His development depends on his ability to read defenses, adjust plays, and make NFL throws.

I'll give you a scenario. 2 QBs who are currently developing both complete a 8 yard pass.

QB A does a hard count. From the hard count, he sees that it's a 4 man rush, and reads Cover 3 pre-snap based on the defense's formation, and the way the DBs dropped their hips after the hard count.

QB A motions his X inside, who's running an 8 yard curl, and hikes the ball, where the X wr runs his curl in the open hole in the zone, QB A looks off the safety to open up that hole more, than goes back to the X WR and completes the 8 yard pass.

Now QB B's scenario:

QB B has a 1 step drop quick slant called. He has 2 reads, the 1 step quick slant to his Z, and if that's covered, a check down to his RB in the flat. No need to read the defense, he's making college level progression type of reads. He hikes the ball, no change in protections, no change to the play, he just hikes it, his Z gets open, he hits his Z for 8 yards.

Now look at those 2 qbs. Both made 8 yard completions. On the stat sheet, both have 8 yards on the board.

But who was more impressive? That's why when you evaluate developing qbs, you don't look at numbers, you look at their ability to grow and develop an NFL caliber mind and make NFL caliber reads and throws.

I saw that from Sam Bradford. He'll be just fine. He just needs time and players.
Hes been slumping since the second half of his rookie season.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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Hes been slumping since the second half of his rookie season.
He's not a 4 year veteran. He's played 2 years, that's fine. And with awful talent around him.

All of a sudden everyone is acting like Danny Amendola was Wes Welker. Give me a break.

The guy has an awful OL and no WRs. And a washed up RB who's injured half the time.

Now in year 3, if we see no development, then yes we can start worrying. But I think it's way too early to panic. Give the guy a fair chance, he's shown flashes of brilliance, he just needs to show consistency, which will happen with time and improved talent around him.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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He's not a 4 year veteran. He's played 2 years, that's fine. And with awful talent around him.

All of a sudden everyone is acting like Danny Amendola was Wes Welker. Give me a break.

The guy has an awful OL and no WRs. And a washed up RB who's injured half the time.

Now in year 3, if we see no development, then yes we can start worrying. But I think it's way too early to panic. Give the guy a fair chance, he's shown flashes of brilliance, he just needs to show consistency, which will happen with time and improved talent around him.
Still has a lot of the same players around him. His most proven receivers are Amendola, Salas, and Steve Smith. Still the same OL and TE's. An underwhelming pro group, and his receivers all fit the same kind of mold anyway (slot WR). Can Brian Quick and Chris Givens make a substantial rookie impact? Plus, Brian Schottenheimer is his OC, and he was never anything special with the Jets either.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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Still has a lot of the same players around him. His most proven receivers are Amendola, Salas, and Steve Smith. Still the same OL and TE's. An underwhelming pro group, and his receivers all fit the same kind of mold anyway (slot WR). Can Brian Quick and Chris Givens make a substantial rookie impact? Plus, Brian Schottenheimer is his OC, and he was never anything special with the Jets either.
Yeah the talent is still awful, they better hope that Quick and Givens can bring something to the table immediately. I do think that losing Amendola hurt him a lot too last year even though I feel Danny is overrated. He still was a security valve for him.

I think if Smith is healthy, and if Amendola can work the slot, and if Quick can provide some deep ability he has some hope. That OL is still awful though, and that's going to be a problem.

I think Schottenheimer isn't a great OC, but I also think he was a scapegoat in NYJ. Every fanbase hates their OC. Like literally 2 or 3 fanbases like their OCs, and that's it. Players make plays. Sometimes we give the OC a little too much grief.

And that's coming from a guy who has Kevin Gilbride as the OC of his team. But I learned a couple of years ago my lesson, as much as we rag on coordinators, at the end of the day, players have to play.
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