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Old 05-23-2012, 09:34 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Phil would have a lot of roster input as is since he runs a very specific system which requires a certain type of players for it to run correctly. So he really does not need the title of GM.
Yeah, like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe Bryant, and Shaquille O'Neil.

In other words, his specific type of player he needs is whoever the best players in the league are at the time.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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Phil would have a lot of roster input as is since he runs a very specific system which requires a certain type of players for it to run correctly. So he really does not need the title of GM.
Does he really? Or does he just need good players like everyone else?

I would love to hear the "specific system" players needed for the Triangle to work. Like what would that be? Like this?

PG - Somebody who knows how to pass to superstars.
SG - Top 5 player off all time is a must. - MJ/Kobe
SF - Slasher who can play defense and hit a 3. - Think Pippen/Artest/Ariza
PF - Hustling clean up guy who can rebound and hit a midrange shot ala Pau Gasol/Horace Grant.
C - Think Shaq in his prime.

haha
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe Bryant, and Shaquille O'Neil.

In other words, his specific type of player he needs is whoever the best players in the league are at the time.
No i was talking about the Triangle. Also only Shaq has been able to win a ring after not playing with Phil. So don't act like Phil was just a result of good players.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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No i was talking about the Triangle. Also only Shaq has been able to win a ring after not playing with Phil. So don't act like Phil was just a result of good players.
I'm not. Phil is a hell of a coach. But come on. Let's not give the triangle a blow job. Phil won bc he had great players. Not bc of the triangle offense.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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I'm not. Phil is a hell of a coach. But come on. Let's not give the triangle a blow job. Phil won bc he had great players. Not bc of the triangle offense.
I didn't say he won just cause of the Triangle. I am saying he runs the triangle and not every player fits into that system its like a 3-4 lb who cant play in the 4-3 or vice versa.

That is why Phil if he even comes back is going to have roster input so he doesn't need to have the title of GM.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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I didn't say he won just cause of the Triangle. I am saying he runs the triangle and not every player fits into that system its like a 3-4 lb who cant play in the 4-3 or vice versa.

That is why Phil if he even comes back is going to have roster input so he doesn't need to have the title of GM.
I really don't think that is the case at all. The Triangle is about spacing and passing. It's not like there are body type requirements that will put someone at a physical mismatch. I think it just boils down to having good players.

If there is someone who thinks there are prototype fits for the Triangle, please educate me because I sincerely want to know.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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I really don't think that is the case at all. The Triangle is about spacing and passing. It's not like there are body type requirements that will put someone at a physical mismatch. I think it just boils down to having good players.

If there is someone who thinks there are prototype fits for the Triangle, please educate me because I sincerely want to know.
Stop trying to shoot down my examples here lol.

For the triangle to work you need intelligent players. It's about recognizing the defense and making adjustments based on what they show.

You need two players who know how to post up. A smart PG who knows how to pass and can hit a three or two. A good wing scorer weather its at the 2 or 3. Ya having MJ or Kobe helped there but you don't need a top 5 wing scorer it obviously helps though.

You also need good spacing and chemistry between the players on the court. To set up 1 on 1 post plays, Drives and cuts.

Certain players are not built to run the triangle a guy like Amare who has next to no post game is not built for the triangle where as a guy like Pau Gasol is. Dwight Howard can be apart of a triangle and then there are guys like the Tyson Chandlers of the world who would not be as successful running it.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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Stop trying to shoot down my examples here lol.

For the triangle to work you need intelligent players. It's about recognizing the defense and making adjustments based on what they show.

You need two players who know how to post up. A smart PG who knows how to pass and can hit a three or two. A good wing scorer weather its at the 2 or 3. Ya having MJ or Kobe helped there but you don't need a top 5 wing scorer it obviously helps though.

You also need good spacing and chemistry between the players on the court. To set up 1 on 1 post plays, Drives and cuts.

Certain players are not built to run the triangle a guy like Amare who has next to no post game is not built for the triangle where as a guy like Pau Gasol is. Dwight Howard can be apart of a triangle and then there are guys like The Tyson Chandlers of the world who would not be as successful running it.
Hmmm..... still not convinced. I'd say Amare and Horace Grant have similarities... and Tyson Chandler could certainly fit if Luke Longley, Will Purdue and Bill Cartwright did.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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lol. Man if Philly wins this series... I really think the east is as weak as it was maybe even weaker than it was since 2005.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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lol. Man if Philly wins this series... I really think the east is as weak as it was maybe even weaker than it was since 2005.
Meh. The Heat are fantastic with Bosh as are The Bulls with Rose.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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Hmmm..... still not convinced. I'd say Amare and Horace Grant have similarities... and Tyson Chandler could certainly fit if Luke Longley, Will Purdue and Bill Cartwright did.
The difference between Amare and Horace Grant is the fact that Horace Grant is 10x the defensive player Amare is. Offensively Horace was more consistent with his jumper and had a better post game.

Luc Longley again had more of a post game then Tyson does and can pass out of the post better then Tyson can. Also Luc can shoot jumpers and Tyson main form of offense is lobs, alley oops, and put backs.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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The difference between Amare and Horace Grant is the fact that Horace Grant is 10x the defensive player Amare is. Offensively Horace was more consistent with his jumper and had a better post game.

But you said you need 2 post players in the Triangle. This argument is besides that suggestion.

Luc Longley again had more of a post game then Tyson does and can pass out of the post better then Tyson can. Also Luc can shoot jumpers and Tyson main form of offense is lobs, alley oops, and put backs.

...and Cartwright and Purdue weren't simply clean up guys like Tyson?
Just sayin'.... maybe we need to find some valid references. I'm just not buying it. It still boils down to having damn good players imo... regardless of their strengths or weaknesses. You teach them the scheme and tell them where to be on the floor and tell them where their passing outlets are, if they aren't in position to score.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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Just sayin'.... maybe we need to find some valid references. I'm just not buying it. It still boils down to having damn good players imo... regardless of their strengths or weaknesses. You teach them the scheme and tell them where to be on the floor and tell them where their passing outlets are, if they aren't in position to score.
How is comparing the fact that one player fits better then the other eliminate the fact that you need two players with a post game?

Cartwright and Perdue had ability to post and pass out of the post. They didn't score much but they could do it. Tyson does not post at all cause that is not his game.

Every system needs good players. It does not matter if the coach is Mike D'antoni, Stan Van, or Phil. Their strength and weakness do play a factor in if the system works correctly or not.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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It's partially the system, but it's mostly the ability to command the respect to be able to control the great players that you need to win. Phil had it. End of argument.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:55 PM    (permalink
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Tonight's game made me physically ill. The Celtics were flat all night.
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Old 05-24-2012, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:45 AM    (permalink
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:24 AM    (permalink
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i think the thing with the triangle is getting guys who's skill sets and mental abilities are perfect for the triangle. While anyone can run it, it takes a certain type to run it, like a smart passing PG, a true scorer (yes, or top 5 players of all time), a somewhat athletic PF who has range, and a SF who can slash with a center who doesn't demand many touches.

the control Phil had over his players is what makes him one of the greatest coaches of all time though.

Also, side note, not on here, but in the media, I feel Pop needs more credit. He's very possibly a top 10 coach of all time. What he does is just amazing. His knowledge is just surreal. Does he have a book out? If not, he needs to write one (when he retires I suppose)
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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i think the thing with the triangle is getting guys who's skill sets and mental abilities are perfect for the triangle. While anyone can run it, it takes a certain type to run it, like a smart passing PG, a true scorer (yes, or top 5 players of all time), a somewhat athletic PF who has range, and a SF who can slash with a center who doesn't demand many touches.

the control Phil had over his players is what makes him one of the greatest coaches of all time though.

Also, side note, not on here, but in the media, I feel Pop needs more credit. He's very possibly a top 10 coach of all time. What he does is just amazing. His knowledge is just surreal. Does he have a book out? If not, he needs to write one (when he retires I suppose)
Yeah what scheme doesn't want those players? Those aren't scheme specific types. Besides, what you said about Centers definitely doesn't relate to Shaq. There's nothing specific that I see the Triangle "needs". Would a combo guard like Derrick Rose not work as a PG in it? Of course not.

I keep getting back to the thought that it's just a scheme that you get players to play. It's more about spacing, positioning and passing... which is not restricted to a unique or specific skillset or body type. Any team and any roster can play the Triangle. It's just a coaching preference. I keep hearing you need this type or that type of player to make it work, and I think that it's completely false. I think that since this is a football forum that people think it's got to be like NFL schemes that require a certain body type/skill set. I don't think it's the same thing at all. I could be wrong, but I haven't heard a convincing argument yet that says otherwise.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Yeah what scheme doesn't want those players? Those aren't scheme specific types. Besides, what you said about Centers definitely doesn't relate to Shaq. There's nothing specific that I see the Triangle "needs". Would a combo guard like Derrick Rose not work as a PG in it? Of course not.

I keep getting back to the thought that it's just a scheme that you get players to play. It's more about spacing, positioning and passing... which is not restricted to a unique or specific skillset or body type. Any team and any roster can play the Triangle. It's just a coaching preference. I keep hearing you need this type or that type of player to make it work, and I think that it's completely false. I think that since this is a football forum that people think it's got to be like NFL schemes that require a certain body type/skill set. I don't think it's the same thing at all. I could be wrong, but I haven't heard a convincing argument yet that says otherwise.
Yes for the love of god it requires certain skills. It is like when I said the things about 3-4 LB in a 4-3. You don't bring in a 3-4 lb expect him to cover WR's and TE's. Certain players are built for things others are not. I don't get why you continue to try and use body type as some type of issue. Unless the players is Eddy Curry body type it is generally not a issue.

Not any roster can play the triangle and it is not just about players playing ball like it is a pick up game.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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Yes for the love of god it requires certain skills. It is like when I said the things about 3-4 LB in a 4-3. You don't bring in a 3-4 lb expect him to cover WR's and TE's. Certain players are built for things others are not. I don't get why you continue to try and use body type as some type of issue. Unless the players is Eddy Curry body type it is generally not a issue.

Not any roster can play the triangle and it is not just about players playing ball like it is a pick up game.
Your analogy is terrible because the difference between a 3-4 LB and a 4-3 LB is more than just skillset, it's also body type.

If we're just looking at skillset, what are they? Can a combo guard work at PG or do you need a passing PG? Can a catch and shoot SG (Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Jason Richardson) work or do you need someone who can slash too? Do you need a dominant post player or can an average one do?

I keep going back to the thought that you simply need the best players you can get regardless of skillset. What I'm getting from you is that only specific types will work.
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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Your analogy is terrible because the difference between a 3-4 LB and a 4-3 LB is more than just skillset, it's also body type.

If we're just looking at skillset, what are they? Can a combo guard work at PG or do you need a passing PG? Can a catch and shoot SG (Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Jason Richardson) work or do you need someone who can slash too? Do you need a dominant post player or can an average one do?

I keep going back to the thought that you simply need the best players you can get regardless of skillset. What I'm getting from you is that only specific types will work.
I literally just picked the first example that came to my mind. Obviously there are better examples but I still feel the overall point comes across.

It would depend on the roster as a whole.

A combo guard @ PG is not ideal especially if you have him as the #1 option. Maybe if you had a two guard or a small forward who can also orchestrate a offense and understands ball movement it could work. Ideally yes you would want a passing PG over a combo as your starting point. It worked when they had Ron Harper because they had Scottie Pippen who was a point forward.

Ray Allen's of the world can work yes. Especially Ray Allen since he knows how to move without the ball and create the proper spacing on the court.

You need guys who can post. They don't have to be Shaq and monsters in the post but they need to be able to post up back down and score while recognizing when to pass out and not force shots. They don't need to be dominate.
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/79...-orlando-magic

Can I get a HELL YEAH! PHEW!



Also, thanks LT... it was a good discussion.
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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YW D-Unit.

Also is it wrong of me to think that Shaq was used just to avoid any NBA Rooney Rule backlash?
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