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Old 06-18-2012, 03:56 PM    (permalink
Matthew Jones
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I like Vaccaro's versatility but he doesn't really stand out in any regard aside from that. I actually think he's pretty similar to Tavon Wilson in terms of which roles he can handle, almost like a slot safety more than anything. I'd be surprised if he went in the first round. Check out the game against Texas A&M for example, where he rode the bench for a while to start the game. He's more of a developmental/tools guy at this point, or a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none type. I'm with you on Chung getting $6-7 million per season being ridiculous. I'd probably max out at around 4-$20. There aren't very many top safeties (and Chung isn't one of them), but finding adequate starters is difficult and he has a fairly well-rounded game.
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Old 06-18-2012, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Razor View Post
I love Vaccaro, but I think he's a very solid second rounder and maybe even a first rounder. He'd fit in nicely with the Patriots. I also think that we'll be looking at safeties regardless of what happens with Chung. If Chung wants big bucks I'm sure BB will tag him and get the best deal possible. I like Chung, but besides that one game against Miami what has he done for us? He's been late for tackles, been injured and fumbled on a fake punt which contributed to a playoff loss. I'd be happy giving him $3.5-$4 mil per year + incentives, but that's about it. People are talking about $6 and $7 mil right now which is complete insanity.
Now I'm a bigger fan of Chung than most on here, but I think you guys are being extremely conservative on your estimates of what Chung's contract should be. If (and it's a big if) he stays healthy for 14-16 games you have to lock him up for a contract similar to Leigh Bodden's 4-24. He is by any objective measure the only competent player in our secondary, and one of the 10-12 best players in the league at a position that desperately needs talent. He does have certain limitations in coverage, but he's certainly not a liability and he's still better than most in that area. Most of his bad reputation came from 2010 when he was forced into the slot because of how atrociously Darius Butler was playing. He can't match up with slot guys in man coverage, but outside of Earl Thomas and Eric Berry there aren't that many guys who can do that anyways. He has done a pretty good job on TE's the past 2 years when healthy, and that was a huge sore spot for us before he came around. He's also the only enforcer we have on the back end.

Razor, your idea that he's late for tackles is extremely misguided, and I have no idea where you got that impression from. He's the fastest player on our entire defense to the ball. Every time he's out there you see 25 cruising into the screen, and he had to cover a ton of the field because of how downright useless Ihedigbo was last season. I'll give you the injuries, but the other point is nonsense. Chung did drop the ball in the playoffs last year, but as a whole he's been exceptional as a special teams player, and made a big impression his first 2 years on those units.

The market for safeties is what it is. You're going to have to pay a lot more than you used to to keep a decent one around. Look at some of the contracts that have gone out recently.

Dawan Landry 5-$27.5 million
Michael Huff 5-$37.5 million

That is pretty much the market rate for 2 guys who Chung is probably a little better than. He has injury concerns, so if he has another injury plagued year he won't get that kind of money, but if he plays close to a full season he'll get a hearty contract.

You have a good all around safety which is a rare commodity in this league. He's also one of the best leaders on the team, and you both have stated before how important leadership is to that side of the ball. The team gets definitively worse without Chung, and there probably wouldn't be a guy on the roster who could give you what he brings right away. If he's healthy I have a hard time seeing a scenario where they don't give him a Leigh Bodden type contract.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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Not to spoil anything but my next article for NEPatriotsDraft is actually about Patrick Chung and what kind of contract he can expect. My findings were pretty similar to cmarq's, although I actually felt that 2011 was weaker than 2010.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:20 AM    (permalink
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Now I'm a bigger fan of Chung than most on here, but I think you guys are being extremely conservative on your estimates of what Chung's contract should be. If (and it's a big if) he stays healthy for 14-16 games you have to lock him up for a contract similar to Leigh Bodden's 4-24. He is by any objective measure the only competent player in our secondary, and one of the 10-12 best players in the league at a position that desperately needs talent. He does have certain limitations in coverage, but he's certainly not a liability and he's still better than most in that area. Most of his bad reputation came from 2010 when he was forced into the slot because of how atrociously Darius Butler was playing. He can't match up with slot guys in man coverage, but outside of Earl Thomas and Eric Berry there aren't that many guys who can do that anyways. He has done a pretty good job on TE's the past 2 years when healthy, and that was a huge sore spot for us before he came around. He's also the only enforcer we have on the back end.

Razor, your idea that he's late for tackles is extremely misguided, and I have no idea where you got that impression from. He's the fastest player on our entire defense to the ball. Every time he's out there you see 25 cruising into the screen, and he had to cover a ton of the field because of how downright useless Ihedigbo was last season. I'll give you the injuries, but the other point is nonsense. Chung did drop the ball in the playoffs last year, but as a whole he's been exceptional as a special teams player, and made a big impression his first 2 years on those units.

The market for safeties is what it is. You're going to have to pay a lot more than you used to to keep a decent one around. Look at some of the contracts that have gone out recently.

Dawan Landry 5-$27.5 million
Michael Huff 5-$37.5 million

That is pretty much the market rate for 2 guys who Chung is probably a little better than. He has injury concerns, so if he has another injury plagued year he won't get that kind of money, but if he plays close to a full season he'll get a hearty contract.

You have a good all around safety which is a rare commodity in this league. He's also one of the best leaders on the team, and you both have stated before how important leadership is to that side of the ball. The team gets definitively worse without Chung, and there probably wouldn't be a guy on the roster who could give you what he brings right away. If he's healthy I have a hard time seeing a scenario where they don't give him a Leigh Bodden type contract.
Wrt. the contract: I'm only voicing my opinion, so no reason to go crazy over that. If it were me running the show that's the kind of deal I'd be offering. If he doesn't want to I'd trade him and never look back.

Wrt. being late for tackles: Maybe I'm stuck in the playoffs on this one, but imo he has a tendency to be a step late unless he's sniffed out the run and is storming for the LOS. I like Chung like a said, but suggesting anything other than he's a middle of the road safety is homerism. He's not special in any way, he's not big, he's not overly fast, he's not overly strong. He has some pretty awesome intangibles which makes up for a lot, and I do like his versatility. But even when he was on the field the defense didn't improve all that much - at least not the secondary. Spikes was the real difference maker to me. He added a physical presence in the middle and allowed Mayo to use his athleticism. I'm stoked to see what kind of damage Spikes can do this year if he stays healthy, especially with Hightower at SLB. That group of linebackers has the potential to be special.

And how do you know what kind of leader he is? He has never been a team captain. I haven't ever heard him speak like a captain, in fact he rarely does speak to the media (which I like). He's good at communicating in games it would seem but that doesn't equate to being a good leader. I think fans (all fans) has a tendency to overvalue certain types of players. I'd put Chung in the Jim Leonard group of safeties. He's the kind of guy you want back there, but he's not one to be a cornerstone of the defense. Maybe I'm being harsh here, but Chung has to show me that he's able to stay on the field and consistently make plays.
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Old 06-20-2012, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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Here's the Chung article:

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2012/...ety-worth.html
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Old 06-20-2012, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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Good job on that article, Matt. I still think what you're proposing is a bit too rich, but it's not that far over what I think his value is that I wouldn't be OK with it were it to happen. I really hope Chung breaks out this season and plays well enough to deserve that kind of contract.
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Old 06-20-2012, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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Wrt. the contract: I'm only voicing my opinion, so no reason to go crazy over that. If it were me running the show that's the kind of deal I'd be offering. If he doesn't want to I'd trade him and never look back.

It's easier to say that removed from the situation, but the Pats took that same kind of approach last season with Meriweather and Sanders thinking that they could replace them with the likes of Josh Barrett, James Ihedigbo, and Sergio Brown, and it really hurt them. I wouldn't want to see them fall into the same situation again. They can handle a $6 million type contract, and today's Michael Griffin signing for $7 million per further indicates what Chung's contract is going to be like.

Wrt. being late for tackles: Maybe I'm stuck in the playoffs on this one, but imo he has a tendency to be a step late unless he's sniffed out the run and is storming for the LOS. I like Chung like a said, but suggesting anything other than he's a middle of the road safety is homerism. He's not special in any way, he's not big, he's not overly fast, he's not overly strong. He has some pretty awesome intangibles which makes up for a lot, and I do like his versatility. But even when he was on the field the defense didn't improve all that much - at least not the secondary. Spikes was the real difference maker to me. He added a physical presence in the middle and allowed Mayo to use his athleticism. I'm stoked to see what kind of damage Spikes can do this year if he stays healthy, especially with Hightower at SLB. That group of linebackers has the potential to be special.

I have to fundamentally disagree with most of what you're saying about Chung being late to the ball. There really is no way for either of us to argue anything factual, but clearly we're seeing something very different when we watch the games so I'll have to leave it at that.

In terms of size/speed/strength Taylor Mays he is not, but he checks out fairly well 5'11" 212 4.48 speed 25 reps. He plays big for his size (which may contribute to injuries) and doesn't appear to have any limitations physically when he's on the field. He's extremely heady, quick to the ball, a valuable special teams asset, not afraid to get physical with TE's down the field, and is a big hitter on the back end. He's been productive too when he's in the lineup. If he can ever play a full 16 games at the rate he produces he's a 100tkl, 3 int type guy while being the most well versed guy we have in the secondary.

The defense played its best stretch of the season at the end. Chung and Spikes came back and Carter went out. It all really depends on how you perceive it, but IMO Chung did play a role. He made several big hits in the Buffalo and Giants games at the end of the season, and really was the only guy I saw a little swagger from in the secondary all season.


And how do you know what kind of leader he is? He has never been a team captain. I haven't ever heard him speak like a captain, in fact he rarely does speak to the media (which I like). He's good at communicating in games it would seem but that doesn't equate to being a good leader. I think fans (all fans) has a tendency to overvalue certain types of players. I'd put Chung in the Jim Leonard group of safeties. He's the kind of guy you want back there, but he's not one to be a cornerstone of the defense. Maybe I'm being harsh here, but Chung has to show me that he's able to stay on the field and consistently make plays.
http://www.nesn.com/2011/09/patrick-chungs-progression-as-a-leader-draws-immense-praise-from-patriots-teammates.html


I've seen a few more articles like this since Chung joined the team. I think the explanation as to why he wasn't captain last season was because McCourty was expected to emerge as a star, and he has the right approach to the game as well. I think Chung is the most respected guy among the secondary and it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see him get the captaincy this year.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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I have no doubt that Chung will be signed long term because he is a leader on the team. The Patriots don't let their leaders walk. The guys like Seymour are let go (traded, cut, or just not resigned) because their talent and impact on the team isn't worth the money they are asking for. (though, the Patriots might have been wrong about Seymour)
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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He's back:

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Old 06-22-2012, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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He's back:

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Old 06-22-2012, 06:01 PM    (permalink
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He's a good special teamer... let's just hope he stays there.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:35 AM    (permalink
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I guess I'm not opposed to having Ihedigbo on the roster for a little while to help mentor some of our young safeties on how to handle themselves in the weight room, etc., but I'm hoping he doesn't end up on the final roster, especially if he'd be taking a roster spot from a young player such as Nate Ebner. We have enough special teams specialists for two rosters.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:44 AM    (permalink
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Is anyone interested in making a 53-man roster projection? Here's what I've got:

1. QB Tom Brady
2. QB Brian Hoyer
3. QB Ryan Mallett

4. RB Stevan Ridley
5. RB Shane Vereen
6. RB Danny Woodhead
7. RB Joseph Addai

8. WR Wes Welker
9. WR Brandon Lloyd
10. WR Jabar Gaffney
11. WR Deion Branch
12. WR Julian Edelman
13. WR Matthew Slater

14. TE Rob Gronkowski
15. TE Aaron Hernandez
16. TE Daniel Fells

17. OT Nate Solder
18. OT Sebastian Vollmer
19. OT Marcus Cannon

20. OG Robert Gallery
21. OG Brian Waters
22. OG Ryan Wendell

23. C Dan Connolly
24. C Dan Koppen

25. DT Kyle Love
26. DT Myron Pryor
27. DT Gerard Warren

28. NT Vince Wilfork

29. DE Chandler Jones
30. DE Brandon Deaderick
31. DE Jonathan Fanene
32. DE Jake Bequette
33. DE Trevor Scott
34. DE Jermaine Cunningham

35. OB Jerod Mayo
36. OB Rob Ninkovich
37. OB Bobby Carpenter
38. OB Tracy White

39. IB Brandon Spikes
40. IB Dont'a Hightower
41. IB Dane Fletcher

42. CB Devin McCourty
43. CB Ras-I Dowling
44. CB Kyle Arrington
45. CB Sterling Moore
46. CB Alfonzo Dennard

47. FS Steve Gregory
48. FS Tavon Wilson

49. SS Patrick Chung
50. SS Nate Ebner

51. K Stephen Gostkowski
52. P Zoltan Mesko
53. LS Danny Aiken

Practice Squad:

1. RB Brandon Bolden
2. WR Jeremy Ebert
3. TE Alex Silvestro
4. OT Kyle Hix
5. OT Matt Kopa
6. C Nick McDonald
7. LB Aaron Lavarias
8. CB Malcolm Williams

Injured Reserve/Physically Unable to Play:

1. TE Jake Ballard
2. TE Brad Herman
3. OT Markus Zusevics
4. OG Logan Mankins
5. DT Marcus Forston
6. OB Jeff Tarpinian
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:47 AM    (permalink
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Three players who missed the cut but could make the team:

1. FB Spencer Larsen
2. NT Ron Brace
3. SS James Ihedigbo
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:34 AM    (permalink
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The only thing that really stands out to me is that I think Ebert will make the cut and Branch won't.
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Old 06-24-2012, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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Tony Jefferson article:

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2012/...tml#more-18378
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Old 06-29-2012, 06:38 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
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http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view/20220629still_carter_country/srvc=home&position=alsoE

I can't believe he wants that kind of money. Never going to happen, but I'm not as sure he's going to be back now because there is no chance the Pats meet those demands. Some other team is definitely going to be willing to pay more money than the Pats for his services.

Still we really don't have anybody else who is a proven pass rush commodity.
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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Andre Carter isn't worth more than a vet minimum 1 year deal.

I feel bad for him, because he played one of his best years under a cheap salary for NE and then hurt himself, badly. However... he's an over 30 year old pass rusher coming off a serious injury. As much as I want him back in NE, he's not worth paying that kind of money.
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
10. What is holding up a contract agreement with Patriots first-round pick Dont’a Hightower? Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, citing sources, lays it out nicely. It’s all about the fourth year of the contract and how much is guaranteed. The Browns reportedly are having a holdup with 22nd overall pick Brandon Weeden, and Hightower, the 25th pick, might be waiting to see what happens with Weeden and the two others directly in front of him who remain unsigned.
This could go on for a while, because the Browns aren't going to guarantee 4 years to a guy that might retire in 3 years.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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Justin Houston "held out" last year because he wasn't going to be able to pass the drug test...
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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I agree, there's no way I'd give Carter a three or four-year deal.
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Old 07-11-2012, 02:48 AM    (permalink
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The Pats were at Gordon's pro day.

I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him, but he'd have to make the roster. No way he'll be able to stay on the PS. I have a hard time seeing BB putting a guy who's been out of football and missed mini camps and OTAs stay on the roster.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:16 AM    (permalink
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The Pats were at Gordon's pro day.

I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him, but he'd have to make the roster. No way he'll be able to stay on the PS. I have a hard time seeing BB putting a guy who's been out of football and missed mini camps and OTAs stay on the roster.
If the Pats got him they would get creative and start him on PUP and ultimately probably IR him. In saying that I'd be surprised if they put in more than a 4th and he could realistically go to a team willing to give up a 3rd or even a 2nd
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:05 AM    (permalink
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A fourth would be fine by me. It probably wouldn't be enough though... PUP and IR would work, I didn't even think about that. I'm not quite sure what his red flags are all about, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a problem in NE's lockerroom.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:51 AM    (permalink
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I'm projecting Gordon to be picked with a third-round choice, so the Patriots would probably have to offer a second in order to land him. His physical tools are interesting, but I'm not expecting New England to invest heavily in a wide receiver based on physical tools, especially one with character concerns who has a limited amount of collegiate experience playing in a very simple offense.
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