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Old 04-30-2012, 12:33 PM    (permalink
SenorGato
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Originally Posted by jojo View Post
Quinton Coples has that Scarlet Letter A for Attitude stamped on him, low motor, took lots of downs off, could bust unless he reverses his slacker personality.

The physical tools are there, & he appears to be coachable, so it's all in hi head -- he is only a possible bust.
Coples did more for UNC than UNC did for anybody it's players. I'm avsolutely stunned how that's glossed over. That program was a joke last year, and he STILL switched positions and threw up 8.

Edit: No homer.
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:11 PM    (permalink
Warhawk137
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Yeesh, lots of poorly thought-out assumptions about the Colts going on in here.

OK, I want to point out a few things with regard to the Tim Couch comparisons, and the Peyton Manning in 1998 comparisons. In 1999, Couch, with and expansion Browns team that for years paid no attention to the offensive line, was sacked 52 times. Basically, he got David Carr'd. Bad, bad team and organization, and FWIW he played pretty well when he wasn't injured.

Now...

A lot of Manning's success was attributed to him not encountering this type of situation. He was sacked just 22 times in his rookie season. And a lot of that, in many articles about how the current Colts team doesn't match up to the 98 Colts, is attributed to Tarik Glenn and Adam Meadows. Can't tell you how many times I've read "the Colts don't have anyone like Glenn and Meadows, Luck is going to get killed!"

Except, that logic is wrong, because in essence they're saying that the Colts don't have anyone like what Glenn and Meadows became. In point of fact, they have two guys exactly like Glenn and Meadows then in Castonzo and Ijalana. Glenn and Meadows were first and second round tackles drafted in 1997, the year before the Colts drafted Manning, and Castonzo and Ijalana were a first and second round tackle and tackle/guard drafted in 2011, the year before the Colts drafted Luck.

Now, that may seem like a tenuous comparison, since draft position isn't reflective of level of play, obviously. You may respond, Castonzo struggled and Ijalana was hurt, they're not in the same league as Glenn and Meadows.

Except...

In 1997, the Colts allowed 62 sacks, even though the 5 starters didn't miss a start. That's terrible.

In 2011, the Colts, with terrible QBs by the way, and Linkenbach (who is not good) on the right side, only allowed 35 sacks. Almost precisely in the middle of the NFL in that category. With a more mobile QB in Luck, another year of experience for Castonzo, and replacing Linkenbach & an aging Diem on the right side with Justice and Ijalana (which has to be considered an upgrade any way you look at it), I see no reason why luck is going to be Couch'd/Carr'd.

As a side note, I think people may be underselling Collie a bit. Slot receivers in that mold, from what I've seen, tend to suffer more from inadequate quarterbacking, so it's hard to blame him for last season. Before his concussion problem in 2010, don't forget that, through his first 6 games, he was leading the league in most categories. He was on pace for 117 catches, 1341 yards, and 16 TDs. Don't be surprised if, now that he's paired with a better QB and is a full season removed from his concussion issues, he starts to look more like Wes Welker again.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Mark Barron
Melvin Ingram
Brandon Weeden
Riley Reiff
Nick Perry

Not all going to bust, some of them just never be more than just mediocre starters.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
Mark Barron
Melvin Ingram
Brandon Weeden
Riley Reiff
Nick Perry

Not all going to bust, some of them just never be more than just mediocre starters.
Eff you sir. Eff you.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by mightytitan9 View Post
I like how people are calling Z.Brown like he was a first round selection, he went #52 overall. Even if he does bust, it won't be near the capacity of old ones.
Are you referring to Brandon Weeden?
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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Eff you sir. Eff you.
I just think he'll be Backus 2.0 for you if it all works out. I was more looking for guys that'll be disappointments for the draft slot more so than pure busts and max out as mediocre to decent starters rather than real difference makers.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
Mark Barron
Melvin Ingram
Brandon Weeden
Riley Reiff
Nick Perry

Not all going to bust, some of them just never be more than just mediocre starters.
If Barron becomes a star you know I'm never going to leave you alone about it.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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For me it's Quinton Coples. I was very high on Coples but I just see him being successful as a 5 tech. He made it clear he didnt want to play as a DT and you draft him to take on blocks?
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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If Barron becomes a star you know I'm never going to leave you alone about it.
Fair enough, but I think he's going to be just a good player who gets burned a lot but provides the team with great physicality, leadership and the occasional big play. All in all a solid player but no ******* way do you take a limited SS like Barron.
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:02 PM    (permalink
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RGIII, Morris Claiborne and David Wilson

While Fletcher Cox will be the first player to get inducted into the HOF before his 5 year waiting period is up.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by regoob2 View Post
For me it's Quinton Coples. I was very high on Coples but I just see him being successful as a 5 tech. He made it clear he didnt want to play as a DT and you draft him to take on blocks?
For all the word said Coples was initially listed as a LB on the Jets site. Expect to see him stand up at times this season, as well as 5 tech maybe, and a DE in the 4 man lines.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:56 PM    (permalink
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RGIII, Morris Claiborne and David Wilson

While Fletcher Cox will be the first player to get inducted into the HOF before his 5 year waiting period is up.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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Well, this is where we part opinions. All of that sounds just fine in theory, but does it happen that way in the NFL? A rookie is a rookie, and no matter what, he's going to take his lumps. People know that, so they'll have leniency with him. But another thing to keep in mind here is that Luck isn't going to be the only rookie on that offense. There's a new coaching staff for the Colts, and it's going to be a transitional time for even the veterans.

I've seen really good QB's be victim to circumstance. And it's a shame. But with the position comes the heavy weight of responsibility for the teams success. And if they can't be successful in 3-4 years, then he's the guy that will be taking the heat.

Everyone's talking about this kid like he's the 2nd coming of Christ, and for pretty understandable reasons. He's an amazing QB prospect. But all that build-up and heightened expectation is a recipe for disaster; as we've seen before.

By the way, I also wanted to take a second and point out something. You also said that "Scouts today would have torn him (Couch) apart." I disagree. There's nothing new under the sun, and scouts have not changed their routine in quite some time. The combine has been a rigorous evaluation process for better than 20 years. They still get fooled every single year. They still miss highly talented players every year. They do a difficult job as well as humanly possible. But certain things, in your words, can't be quantified. Jerry Glanville said once upon a time, "If a guy comes into this league and fails, it's probably because he's scared." And you just can't know if a guy is going to get to that next level, take a monster hit in his first game, lose his confidence, and play scared for the rest of his career.
I hate to inform you but there was heavy criticism of the Couch pick when it was made. He was no where near the prospect Luck is, not even close.
There is almost nothing to back up the theory that weak teams lead to rookie QB failures. Many of the greatest QB's ever to play in the NFL started out on incrediably weak teams but had the mental toughness to put failure behind them and inspire their players to play at a higher level which eventually led to their greatness.
Let's take Stafford at Detroit. He has the same OL basically that the 0-16 Lions had, including Johnson the WR but the Lions drafted him #1 because they projected him as a true franchise QB. The weak OL lead to injuries but this past season, he stayed healthy and showed that he had the mental toughness to put past problems behind him and inspired his offensive teammates to play above their abilities.
Great QB's don't ever play scared and the QB's who do, were never going to obtain greatness no matter who you put on their team.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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For all the word said Coples was initially listed as a LB on the Jets site. Expect to see him stand up at times this season, as well as 5 tech maybe, and a DE in the 4 man lines.
LB? That may be worse then 5 tech. I just dont see the fit. To me he was a 4-3 LE and rush specialist 3 tech.
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:12 AM    (permalink
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show me one NFL caliber throw by Luck. This guy doesn't have the arm strength to succeed in the NFL.

He floats all his passes and will get picked off every time in the NFL.
Juuuust in case anyone takes this trolling seriously (and because I like watching Stanford highlights :) ) I hunted down some such throws. Took me about 5 minutes of YouTube searching.

Here are several:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMz9nwy7yYc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik-LNTMYn50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq3Ol2jtGnk -- see the 2:15 mark for an over the middle bullet to a TE... more impressively, though, see the 4:20 mark for an impressive off his back foot strike about 30 yards downfield, being pursued.

And here's a 73 yard bomb from his pro-day that the receiver dropped:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sx_pCLtye4

I think the thing with Luck is he doesn't throw harder than he has to. He's very good at taking something off his fastball in order to get the easy touch pass for a completion when he can. At the NFL level, I think he'll show off his arm strength more.

Now, I'm not saying he's got a cannon. He's not Brett Favre or John Elway. But his arm is plenty good enough to be a successful NFL quarterback, especially when you consider how so many of his other traits are off the charts.

ETA: Here are a couple other good ones. They aren't as deep passes, but they show he can put some zip on the short crossing routes when he needs to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyPBi...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_eAa...feature=relmfu This one is more impressive for the fact that he's getting clobbered while he's releasing but he still has enough strength and quickness to get the pass off such that Fleener can make an amazing catch in the end zone.

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Old 08-01-2012, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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Robert Griffin - McShay had a telling stat the week leading up to the draft that defines something I was trying to say in Dec. about Griffin’s pocket presence and lack of elusiveness. Of his top 7 QB’s in the draft, Griffin had the highest sack % of them all when under pressure.

His most NFL caliber throw, the bucket, is really only effective if he has an elite level WR to consistently get under it or high point it. Also have a hard time seeing the Shanahans incorporating any part of Baylor's spread into their scheme. Bust is probably too strong. I'd just say after 3-4 seasons the Redskins are contemplating what they should do at QB.
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ROTOWORLD 8/1/12 - Robert Griffin III has reportedly displayed a tendency to hold onto the ball for too long early in training camp, leading to too many would-be sacks.
Quarterbacks wear red, no-contact jerseys in training camp and can't be hit, but Griffin needs to overcome this tendency before the real games start. "That's why you practice," coach Mike Shanahan explained. "That's why you have repetition." The Redskins open the preseason next Thursday against Buffalo. http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...ce-report-731/
Wanted to bring this back up since this is the very same weakness I and a few others have been harping on since last season. Lack of pocket presence and elusiveness. Good luck correcting that in the span of his first training camp.
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Old 08-01-2012, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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Wanted to bring this back up since this is the very same weakness I and a few others have been harping on since last season. Lack of pocket presence and elusiveness. Good luck correcting that in the span of his first training camp.
He's a rookie QB. Rookies shouldn't even be playing quarterback. Give him a few seasons and see what he can't do. I would say it's many times more likely the Browns are looking for a new quarterback before the Skins.
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Old 08-01-2012, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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Wanted to bring this back up since this is the very same weakness I and a few others have been harping on since last season. Lack of pocket presence and elusiveness. Good luck correcting that in the span of his first training camp.
Yup. It's not like he's afraid to take a hit like Gabbert, he just struggles in a muddy pocket.
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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Day 5 of TC completed, and Robert Griffin just threw his FIRST INTs, one and two, of the summer.

The dude ain't busting.

The Skins Oline sucks and it's apparent to all the local Washington beat reporters. Grif isn't 'holding the ball too long'. If he waits for a WR to get open on a route longer than 20+ yards, Orakpo/Kerrigan are chasing in the backfield.

If you expect a QB to make huge plays vertically downfield, he's going to get hit. THat's what happened at Baylor. SHanahan isn't going to have Grif sit stationary in a flimsy pocket, he's gonna roll RGIII to the sidelines and let it rip.

It's easier to 'teach' a young QB not to be the hero on every pass play than it is for him to learn how to have guts attacking a defense with his arm.

Browns fans need to keep convincing themselves they're better off without RGIII.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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Watching you nerds argue over Big-12 quarterbacks is kinda like watching toddlers argue over stuffed animals with one eye missing and the stuffing oozing out...

...it sure is cute, but eventually neither wants anything to do with 'em...
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:18 AM    (permalink
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Judging a QB exclusively based on the conference he played in isn't sound reasoning.
IMO every top pro QB prospect is a unique entity separate and apart from the competition he played against.

Including a caveat about a prospect that says, 'but he played in X conference', is irrelevant.
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Old 08-02-2012, 04:20 AM    (permalink
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I really like Griffin and I thought he was a great pick at #2, but he really wasn't scrutinized at all as a prospect. If he doesn't live up to expectations, I could definitely see people going back to his college tape and finding flaws that we completely overlooked/dismissed at the time. It could be his pocket presence or the offense he ran in college perhaps.

Top to bottom I like his make up but still there was almost zero (aside from his height/slight frame) negative talk about him as a prospect.
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Old 08-02-2012, 07:17 AM    (permalink
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If I were to put together a list of future first round draft busts it'd have to be:

Quinton Coples: Huge talent, but the attitude is all wrong and he doesn't have the physical tools to live of those alone.

Morris Claiborne: Late in the process I started to sour on him a bit. Good, but not great college CB taken in the top ten? I think he'll end up busting.

Justin Blackmon: Dude's a turd and is missing camp his rookie year. How did that turn out for Crabtree? Throw in a piss poor QB and that's a bust.

Bruce Irvin: I wouldn't even have taken him in the third round. I think he's a one trick pony who'll end up playing out of position.

Brandon Weeden: He's just not very good.

Melvin Ingram: He's terrible.

AJ Jenkins: I just don't see it.
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Old 08-02-2012, 07:26 AM    (permalink
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I really like Griffin and I thought he was a great pick at #2, but he really wasn't scrutinized at all as a prospect. If he doesn't live up to expectations, I could definitely see people going back to his college tape and finding flaws that we completely overlooked/dismissed at the time. .


Eye level. But Shanny was really a perfect match for Griffin.



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Bruce Irvin: I think he's a one trick pony who'll end up playing out of position.
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Interesting. I think he's a perfect fit for Pete Carroll's LEO role.
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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i think bruce irvin could be very successful playing like von miller did, pretty much everywhere as a LB and DE. It was a slight reach but they got their guy, to say he wasnt a even a 3rd rounder is odd...even one trick ponies can be good players
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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