New Orleans Saints Scandal Thread

[WCH]

I hope that Vilma turns down the deal and takes this the distance.

[Giantsfan1080]

Mort wrong as usual:

NFL senior VP of communications Greg Aiello: "Today's report about a settlement offer by the league to Jonathan Vilma is completely inaccurate. No such settlement offer has been made. We will continue to respect the court proceedings on this matter and have no further comment at this time."

[wogitalia]

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Mort wrong as usual:

I read that as Vilma rejected it straight away and the league is saving face by saying they never offered it in the first place...

[Bert Macklin]

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Mort wrong as usual:

“As we reported, settlement discussions have taken place,” Werder said. ”Was there a formal offer? Was there a hypothetical offer? I don’t think anybody can be quite sure exactly the form this took. And while the NFL has vehemently denied the accuracy of the story at all, I can tell you that the other side — the sources who provided this information to us last night — have been equally adamant that we stand our ground, that the information is correct, that there have been settlement discussions, and that the NFL has offered to significantly lessen Jonathan Vilma’s suspension is he agrees to drop the defamation suit.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ffer-to-vilma/

[Bert Macklin]

These are tweets minute by minute

Judge Berrigan: I do think you exhausted remedies before Mr. Goodell. You were thwarted at every turn by Goodell. Penalties were too harsh

Judge Berrigan: if I can find a way to legally do it, I will rule in Vilma's favor.

[diabsoule]

State police found no evidence in the whole "wiretapping" story against Saints GM Mickey Loomis

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf...w_orleans.html

[saintsfan912]

Love how all these allegations are turning up to be nothing. Goodell is gonna have egg on his face when these bounty suspensions get overturned for NO evidence.

[Cudders]

The most irritating part of this whole ordeal is how the Saints organization and some of their fans refuse to acknowledge even the slightest degree of wrongdoing amidst all of these allegations.

Judge Berrigan won’t be the one to leave Commissioner Goodell with egg on his face either. As far as I understand it, even if she finds legal ground to stand on and rules in favor of the suspended, the NFL will file an immediate appeal and their punishments would persist pending the outcome of further litigation. The NFL won’t just accept her ruling as just, admit their errors to the fans, tuck their tail between their legs, and let the suspended Saints return. That’s not going to happen. Goodell being emasculated in a court of law is a disaster scenario for NFL leadership. Their team of legal experts will dedicate whatever resources are needed to fight that to the bitter end and a business that grossed over $9 billion last calendar isn’t going to be light on resources.

Granted, it is clear Goodell doesn’t want to be deposed for a reason. The popular speculation is a total absence of evidence. Here’s another spin though. I don’t think it’s out of the question, and even find it quite believable, that Goodell is resisting coming forward because it would mean surrendering his sources. Sources that could be current or former members of their roster. Sources that could be current or former members of their coaching staff. Sources that could be current or former members of their front office. It makes perfect sense for Goodell to want to protect those that cooperated with the NFL’s investigation. And being leaked as the whistleblower behind the Saints scandal would be a near death sentence to their NFL careers.

In pro football, the dirt is supposed to be covered up, not uncovered. A lot of coaches and front office people would withhold their trust. And, if it was a player that came forward with the “bounty” evidence, it’s a volatile on-field situation. “Snitch” culture in locker rooms across all sports is despised. If their name is revealed, you’re looking at a player who is universally despised at best and the victim of a vigilante-inspired cheap shot at worst.

For the record, I think the NFL parading the “bounties” term around is a little misleading because it carries a strong connotation. It suggests active head-hunting or cheap shot-taking with conscious intent to injure. Intent to injure is a difficult thing to prove in a full-contract sport like football. There’s an argument to be made that defenders want to hurt the ball carrier at the end of each snap. Hard-hitting and intimidation are core defensive principles. You want to break wills, and if bones are broken in the process, then so be it. But attempting to differentiate or legislate hurt vs. injure is impossible.

Even if the intent to inflict injuries was absent, New Orleans still broke the rules. In the collective bargaining agreement, it specifies on-field performance incentives are illegal. The NFLPA agreed to those contents last summer. Whether the hits were delivered with intent to injure doesn’t matter. Whether the hits were delivered in a legal fashion doesn’t matter. What matters is that Goodell believes he has evidence that supports some Saints being rewarded for on-field performance, including delivering big hits, which is a direct violation of the CBA and subject to his rulings. That’s his case. And the punishments he placed on them were to serve the end of all punishments. To act as a clear, decisive deterrent for potential offenders in the future. Given how severe the suspensions were, people around the NFL have taken notice. Who knows if the message will be heard or if it will fall of deaf ears, but it’s worth pointing out Goodell’s intent. And this is coming from someone that has been critical of Goodell in the past.

What amuses me out of all of this is that the NFLPA pushed the owners during the lockout for a greater breadth and higher standard of post-retirement medical care. Which is a fair bargaining point. But now, we’ve got allegations of NFLPA members conspiring on bounties against other NFLPA members and a tidal wave of NFLPA members complaining about the qualitative softness of football and even going as far as undermining the league’s new health efforts. The NFLPA wants protection from the NFL, but the NFLPA can’t even protect themselves from themselves.

[Giantsfan1080]

Originally Posted by saintsfan912

Love how all these allegations are turning up to be nothing. Goodell is gonna have egg on his face when these bounty suspensions get overturned for NO evidence.

You know except for the fact that Greg Williams admitted this was going on. But yeah you're right there is NO evidence, the NFL probably made Williams lie about that.

[saintsfan912]

If it was so cut and dry wouldn't this be over? Why would a judge rule against the nfl if the evidence was so damning against the players? Still trying to figure out where the referees were when all these illegal death hits took place. And if it's so illegal to get paid to play well, why do running backs and QBs get to take their offensive lineman out/buy them expensive watches?

On a side note. What is the NFL doing about all these DUIs from the offseason? I'm much more concerned with players risking innocent peoples lives driving drunk than I am about players playing football.

[YAYareaRB]

Originally Posted by saintsfan912

And if it's so illegal to get paid to play well, why do running backs and QBs get to take their offensive lineman out/buy them expensive watches?

from personal experience (well not the expensive watches part), skill players take lineman out to show appreciation.

[Saints-Tigers]

I really don't think anyone should defend the paying for performance. That's why we have contracts and the salary cap. I don't think we should be hammering guys for showing appreciation or even throwing bets down if they are together, it's their money... but an active pool that is coordinated by a team is sketchy.

I still think some of the suspensions and such were too harsh only because it seems like a big case of making an example so other teams won't let this happen again.

Just give us back Sean Payton after 8 games! The NFL does seem to be showing a very weak hand in this poker game though.

[CJSchneider]

I actually think the heaviest toll should fall on Payton, He is the HC, it;s his job to run the team and follow/execute directives from the league office. No one is arguing that the bounty system was a rules infraction (haven't we been over this enough), but don't paint us out to be a bunch of shady villains when what we were paid for was not illegal on the field.

[Giantsfan1080]

Originally Posted by CJSchneider

I actually think the heaviest toll should fall on Payton, He is the HC, it;s his job to run the team and follow/execute directives from the league office. No one is arguing that the bounty system was a rules infraction (haven't we been over this enough), but don't paint us out to be a bunch of shady villains when what we were paid for was not illegal on the field.

You were told to stop multiple times and continued to ignore the warnings.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by saintsfan912

If it was so cut and dry wouldn't this be over? Why would a judge rule against the nfl if the evidence was so damning against the players?

do you understand how the legal system works, or is this a case of 'i took civics in high school'?

Still trying to figure out where the referees were when all these illegal death hits took place.

hyperbole is a piss poor way to defend an argument.

And if it's so illegal to get paid to play well

right, because the idea was that they were just getting performance bonuses for making some tackles. totally intellectually honest.

On a side note. What is the NFL doing about all these DUIs from the offseason? I'm much more concerned with players risking innocent peoples lives driving drunk than I am about players playing football.

oooh, mis-direction. i love when, instead of arguing the actual argument, we start talking about something completely different instead. if you'd like to discuss the DUIs and the absurd lack of punishment from the nfl, i have no doubt you could find an audience in a thread about DUIs. it has less than no bearing in this thread.

[Complex]

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

You know except for the fact that Greg Williams admitted this was going on. But yeah you're right there is NO evidence, the NFL probably made Williams lie about that.

Dan Patrick and someone else (Jay Glazer I think) said that Greg Williams wrote down what he was going to say to the media but the NFL said No this what you are going to say. Dan Patrick also said the reason Williams agreed to w/e the NFL wrote so Greg Williams would have a chance to coach again in the NFL.

[Giantsfan1080]

Williams wants to be in the NFL again because he knew what he was doing was wrong.

[Complex]

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Williams wants to be in the NFL again because he knew what he was doing was wrong.

He wants to be in the NFL again because he wants to coach again.

Where is the evidence again? a game where the defense of players get injured? A video where they claim Hargrove ask for his money even though he was not part of the play that injured Favre?also he might of not been the one that said he give me money. Or the email of a picture dog the bounty hunter?

[CJSchneider]

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

You were told to stop multiple times and continued to ignore the warnings.

That's why I feel Payton should have the punishment he does. I th.ink we are saying the same thing

Originally Posted by njx9

hyperbole is a piss poor way to defend an argument.


right, because the idea was that they were just getting performance bonuses for making some tackles. totally intellectually honest.

But that's the point. The image that we were going out there to injur and mame on purpose is erroneous. The style of play that ensued was no different than if there had been no bounty. To portray those players as vile people because they received "pay for play" is the key issue of the debate. No one is debating that the system was a rules infraction, but if our style of play was so hideously dangerous there would be evidence on film, and that just isnt the case in a multitude of situations.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by CJSchneider

But that's the point. The image that we were going out there to injur and mame on purpose is erroneous. The style of play that ensued was no different than if there had been no bounty. To portray those players as vile people because they received "pay for play" is the key issue of the debate. No one is debating that the system was a rules infraction, but if our style of play was so hideously dangerous there would be evidence on film, and that just isnt the case in a multitude of situations.

i fully disagree. if gregg williams had simply taken his players out to dinner after a good game, this wouldn't be a thing. equating the two is a non-starter. the system is the issue, and the system wasn't "just" an off the books bonus (which would *still* be an issue, per the nfl, just a different one).

regardless, 'illegal death hits'? come on.

[Giantsfan1080]

Originally Posted by Complex

He wants to be in the NFL again because he wants to coach again.

Where is the evidence again? a game where the defense of players get injured? A video where they claim Hargrove ask for his money even though he was not part of the play that injured Favre?also he might of not been the one that said he give me money. Or the email of a picture dog the bounty hunter?

Are you kidding? Use some common sense. Why would Williams lie about a bounty program that never took place?

“I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the ‘pay for performance’ program while I was with the Saints,” Williams said. “It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again.”

He admitted it was going on and you think the NFL made him admit to this so he could coach again? That's some conspiracy. The Saints cult is getting close to the Penn Staters.

[CJSchneider]

Then share with us all what the other "issue" was.

[Complex]

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Are you kidding? Use some common sense. Why would Williams lie about a bounty program that never took place?



He admitted it was going on and you think the NFL made him admit to this so he could coach again? That's some conspiracy. The Saints cult is getting close to the Penn Staters.

He read what was given to him so he could coach again. What conspiracy theory? That is what Dan Patrick and Jay Glazer(I think one of the insiders) said.I doubt they are part of some saints cult.

[Giantsfan1080]

Originally Posted by Complex

He read what was given to him so he could coach again. What conspiracy theory? That is what Dan Patrick and Jay Glazer(I think one of the insiders) said.I doubt they are part of some saints cult.

What are you even arguing? Why would Williams admit to what he did and take a suspension when according to you nothing was going on?

[Complex]

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

What are you even arguing? Why would Williams admit to what he did and take a suspension when according to you nothing was going on?

Again he agreed to was written because he wants to coach in the NFL again. I never said there was nothing going and the players even said they were getting paid for performance not bounties.It is against the rules for coaches to pay players for performance.